Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

RogueApiary wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
My concept of balance is "Any list built with a rationale has decent chances to compete".

Honestly it's not like we are far from that. Souping right now is covering a situation that isn't half bad as far as general balance goes. Without souping we would see a lot of different lists in the competition.

The meta top dogs would probably be DE, IG and CWE, but wouldn't be at unreachable levels for other factions.

I'd rather see Tau, Orks and Necrons continue to get bent over (or buffed) rather than make most of the Imperium and Chaos sub factions get put into the garbage bin by killing soup. The current meta at least has top table representation from Eldar, Chaos, Imperium and Nids, even if they're all the souped versions of those factions.

Mono CWE and DE would run absolutely wild without Chaos and Imperium soup to keep them in check as mono Guard can't even touch Alaitoc without doing silly gimmick 13 Hellhounds gak and mono-marines can't stand up to any flavor of Eldar.

CWE and DE did not receive anything more since the custodes and knight codici, i.e. before the era of soups.
They were not destroying the meta before imperial soups, and will not destroy it if you remove imperial soups. In particular since at the same time you are also hurting quite badly the aeldari soups, which indeed are dangerous. Sure they had the top win percentage before soups, but a reasonable one, they were the top contenders, not the only contenders.

In any case between FAQ and CA, a certain number of point nerfs will be given to DE, that is for sure.

Ummm DE def got huge boost with codex. And what you mean by "before era of soups" with regards of custodes and knights? Soup was all well and good before those codexes came out. Most powerful imperium list was soup even before those two. soup by it's very nature is always more powerful than non-soup so if you can soup just do it.

Soup should get a hit with the nerf bat.
It'll be interesting to see how GW eventually implements this.

tneva82 wrote:
Ummm DE def got huge boost with codex. And what you mean by "before era of soups" with regards of custodes and knights? Soup was all well and good before those codexes came out. Most powerful imperium list was soup even before those two. soup by it's very nature is always more powerful than non-soup so if you can soup just do it.

Yes, there were soups, but they were at the level of the top mono codex builds. It's with custodes and knights that soups became the alpha and the omega.

My problem with Psychic powers is, as Arachnofiend said, how black or white they are.

I would prefer for all Psychic powers to be made much less powerfull but be able to use them multiple times with a -1 to cast like Smite (For example, change the Chaos power of moving an extra time to something like +2" to move, advance and charge rolls). That way they can be a flexible tactical tool, and not a "Did I made my psychic power? Cool, I won"

 Galas wrote:
My problem with Psychic powers is, as Arachnofiend said, how black or white they are.

I would prefer for all Psychic powers to be made much less powerfull but be able to use them multiple times with a -1 to cast like Smite (For example, change the Chaos power of moving an extra time to something like +2" to move, advance and charge rolls). That way they can be a flexible tactical tool, and not a "Did I made my psychic power? Cool, I won"

Rather than that, why not just change the casting system to 3D6, perils on any double 1 or 6 (super perils on triples) and then adjust the cost of each power more accordingly to scale?

 Galas wrote:
My problem with Psychic powers is, as Arachnofiend said, how black or white they are.

I would prefer for all Psychic powers to be made much less powerfull but be able to use them multiple times with a -1 to cast like Smite (For example, change the Chaos power of moving an extra time to something like +2" to move, advance and charge rolls). That way they can be a flexible tactical tool, and not a "Did I made my psychic power? Cool, I won"

Yeah I can get on board with that. Move twice abilities very predictably dominate games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

 Galas wrote:
My problem with Psychic powers is, as Arachnofiend said, how black or white they are.

I would prefer for all Psychic powers to be made much less powerfull but be able to use them multiple times with a -1 to cast like Smite (For example, change the Chaos power of moving an extra time to something like +2" to move, advance and charge rolls). That way they can be a flexible tactical tool, and not a "Did I made my psychic power? Cool, I won"

Rather than that, why not just change the casting system to 3D6, perils on any double 1 or 6 (super perils on triples) and then adjust the cost of each power more accordingly to scale?

Because that does nothing to fix the brokenness of the powers? All it does is ad another hoop to jump through and lots of really power psykers just ignore perils anyways - or practically ignore it.

I agree with the tone down. Smite getting nerfed to be a single mortal wound, and if you roll a 10+ you perhaps don't get Feel No Pain against it.

Is smite an actual problem anymore?

Besides outperforming all other mortal wound powers, that is.

 Jidmah wrote:
Is smite an actual problem anymore?

Besides outperforming all other mortal wound powers, that is.

Not really, no.

 Jidmah wrote:
Is smite an actual problem anymore?

Besides outperforming all other mortal wound powers, that is.

Well, that kinda is a problem...

 Crimson wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Is smite an actual problem anymore?

Besides outperforming all other mortal wound powers, that is.

Well, that kinda is a problem...

Sure. A lot of psychic powers need a buff. There's a lot of garbage out there.

Well gw sure likes leaving faq to the limit

While I’d like to see some Psychic powers revamp, I’d much prefer to see the CP resolution in this faq.

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw sure likes leaving faq to the limit

Halloween FAQ, you heard it here first.

Reemule wrote:
While I’d like to see some Psychic powers revamp, I’d much prefer to see the CP resolution in this faq.

The autumn FAQ? The season is just starting!

They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

tneva82 wrote:
They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

Yes, then they changed it.

tneva82 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Charging points for Relics or free Relics is a moot point discussion because you'll always end up with 1 or 2 that are good, and the rest being useless by comparison. When was the last time you saw a DG list use the Plague Skull on a character? Imagine charging 25 points for that.. lol

They are getting better at it overall compared to previous editions to be fair

Maybe if the other relics would cost more than 25 pts you would have more reason to take it. But when it's free there's no point in not taking the best one possible.

Why would you take grot if you could get ork boy for same price?

Exactly. I've NEVER seen that being used as an argument. It's the same reason Power Level is such a garbage system.

Plus one of the reasons lots of the relic weapons weren't taken was because of the old AP system. Compare the Spartean now to the old Spartean. The new one isn't terrible, but the issue is that it costs the same as Teeth of Terra and Shield Eternal, otherwise known as FREE.

And then they changed it after to Autumn when everyone complained that the first FAQ came out a few weeks late.

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

Yes, then they changed it.

When? At least on spring faq it was still september faq

tneva82 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

Yes, then they changed it.

When? At least on spring faq it was still september faq

Yeah, I don't remember them actually changing the Fall one. That won't stop them though. I don't think they really feel bound by it.

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

Yes, then they changed it.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:And then they changed it after to Autumn when everyone complained that the first FAQ came out a few weeks late.

Gonna need to source that claim, boyz. Even the GW faq email response still says September.

An issue I ran into this weekend was the number of eldar (craftworld and harli) powers that didn't require LOS to work. As if they were not already powerful as feth to begin with being able to put them on any unit within 24" without worrying about LOS is just crazy.

I feel there are a ton of these small adjustments that could be made in the FAQ, tested and then rolled into the CA with major changes that the small ones couldn't fix (Necrons, marines, CP). I'm just not sure GW and I are playing the same game at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because that does nothing to fix the brokenness of the powers? All it does is ad another hoop to jump through and lots of really power psykers just ignore perils anyways - or practically ignore it.

But, it allows freedom. Sure, Doom might be completely busted. But, if it goes to a casting value of say, 12 on 3d6, at least it now presents somewhat of a challenge to get the power off, especially considering that (generally) you can only potentially re-roll 1 dice with CP (yes, Farseers can re-roll all dice once per phase, but if all powers increase in cost then it isn't as reliable to get the 2nd power off).

Likewise, if Jinx became an 11, or Miasma of Pestilence became an 11 etc etc.

By increasing the casting range from 2-12 to 3-18, it gives you more opportunity to make the "broken" powers harder to cast in the first place, whilst allowing you to potentially reliably cast some of the "weaker" powers.

2d6 is more than enough for that. A power that is cast on 8 is really difficult to cast, at 9 its a complete gamble and should be used only for really busted powers.

Kdash wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because that does nothing to fix the brokenness of the powers? All it does is ad another hoop to jump through and lots of really power psykers just ignore perils anyways - or practically ignore it.

But, it allows freedom. Sure, Doom might be completely busted. But, if it goes to a casting value of say, 12 on 3d6, at least it now presents somewhat of a challenge to get the power off, especially considering that (generally) you can only potentially re-roll 1 dice with CP (yes, Farseers can re-roll all dice once per phase, but if all powers increase in cost then it isn't as reliable to get the 2nd power off).

Likewise, if Jinx became an 11, or Miasma of Pestilence became an 11 etc etc.

By increasing the casting range from 2-12 to 3-18, it gives you more opportunity to make the "broken" powers harder to cast in the first place, whilst allowing you to potentially reliably cast some of the "weaker" powers.

The trouble with moving from 2d6 to 3d6 is that the tendency for average rolls goes way up. The swing from 8 to 9, or 9 to 10, is greater than the swing on 2d6 from 6 to 7 or 7 to 8.

I don't think that 3d6 does anything 2d6 doesn't do for the most part. It allows you to make a spell a little harder to cast or a little easier. That doesn't seem to be the core of the problem.

The core of the problem is - the spell (doom) has too big a range. It prevents you from being able to deny with a range that high. Nor does the psyker have to expose itself to damage next turn to really use it.

I think making it an 8 to cast with a reduced cast range to 18" would make a BIG difference.

Ummm DE def got huge boost with codex.

To be fair there previous codex was a huge pile of gak so getting them anywhere up would was always going to be a huge boost.

As I've mentioned before I am looking forward to see how GW addresses soup and CP because those two things will tell us better how good any of the codexes are. If the playtesters were mostly going for monobuilds I could easily see how skewed that might have become when people start factoring in all the ally possibilities.

Lemondish wrote:

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They specified september faq. This week left.

Not autumn faq. They specifically showed september when they introduced new system

Yes, then they changed it.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:And then they changed it after to Autumn when everyone complained that the first FAQ came out a few weeks late.

Gonna need to source that claim, boyz. Even the GW faq email response still says September.

To be fair, hands up, I can't find anything now! So maybe I just bought into a rumour that was going around. Sorry