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tneva82 wrote:

 beir wrote:
GW doesn't have to change the name to slip the date. Just because it was referred to as the September FAQ doesn't provide any guarantee that it will be out this week.

True. Gw is such a bunch of amateurs that expecting them to follow deadlines(that they theyselves set) is optimistic. Were they professionals it would be out but since they are bad amateurs.

Yes they should not be held to a commitment they choose to make for themselves.

I'm also curious to see when this FAQ is going to drop.

I don't purchase 40K armies anymore until I see a Chapter Approved come out 6 months after the fact. I've been burned several times over the last year because GW decided to change their minds over a rule they wrote not even a year ago.

I really want a Dark Eldar army again, but I'm not buying gak until I see the points values fluctuate and see what gets the nerf hammer.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 beir wrote:
GW doesn't have to change the name to slip the date. Just because it was referred to as the September FAQ doesn't provide any guarantee that it will be out this week.

True. Gw is such a bunch of amateurs that expecting them to follow deadlines(that they theyselves set) is optimistic. Were they professionals it would be out but since they are bad amateurs.

Yes they should not be held to a commitment they choose to make for themselves.

A delayed fix is better than an insufficient one - stop whining.

And if you don't trust that it can be better, then stop playing. And also stop whining. It's getting old, boys.

Lemondish wrote:


A delayed fix is better than an insufficient one - stop whining.

And if you don't trust that it can be better, then stop playing. And also stop whining. It's getting old, boys.

Agreed, GW are not contractually bound to put the FAQ out by a particular date, or even at all. They put out the ETA dates as a helpful guide to when their helpful FAQ services will be released.

Anyway its besides the point. Its not even the end of September yet! Why are people flooding good discussion threads with whining that the FAQ is 'late'.

Lemondish wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 beir wrote:
GW doesn't have to change the name to slip the date. Just because it was referred to as the September FAQ doesn't provide any guarantee that it will be out this week.

True. Gw is such a bunch of amateurs that expecting them to follow deadlines(that they theyselves set) is optimistic. Were they professionals it would be out but since they are bad amateurs.

Yes they should not be held to a commitment they choose to make for themselves.

A delayed fix is better than an insufficient one - stop whining.

And if you don't trust that it can be better, then stop playing. And also stop whining. It's getting old, boys.

or they could just drop an announcement on their Facebook page about the Space Wolf Codex delay and if there is a big FAQ delay then mention that also, like they did in the spring when it was also delayed. This is Dakka, if you don’t like whining, why are you here?

Here's my guess...

We are all thinking the FAQ has SW fixes, right? Months and months ago, everybody was assuming that the wolves were to be released with a campaign box with Orks...right?

So what if the FAQs has Ork fixes in it as well...and they can't release it until Orktober / NovOrkber is over because it gives away too much?

Orks have obviously slipped months. That leaves us with NovOrkber, followed by December FAQ, just in time for Christmas.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Here's my guess...

We are all thinking the FAQ has SW fixes, right? Months and months ago, everybody was assuming that the wolves were to be released with a campaign box with Orks...right?

So what if the FAQs has Ork fixes in it as well...and they can't release it until Orktober / NovOrkber is over because it gives away too much?

Orks have obviously slipped months. That leaves us with NovOrkber, followed by December FAQ, just in time for Christmas.

Unless the Orks are somehow getting their changes in the core rulebook, that wouldn't work since they can just delay the Ork document on it's own.

No, it's more likely that adjustments (and the play testing of adjustments) made in response to Nova (not counting the stuff they just go "this is how you're supposed to play it you grots") have resulted in a bit of a delay.

Here's hoping the 20 attack Rune Priest is addressed...

 JimOnMars wrote:
Here's my guess...

We are all thinking the FAQ has SW fixes, right? Months and months ago, everybody was assuming that the wolves were to be released with a campaign box with Orks...right?

So what if the FAQs has Ork fixes in it as well...and they can't release it until Orktober / NovOrkber is over because it gives away too much?

Orks have obviously slipped months. That leaves us with NovOrkber, followed by December FAQ, just in time for Christmas.

No the ork Codex written last year was never printed. The English SW Dex was printed and they stopped the production to make fixes. The delay from the ork/Space wolf announcment was the Ork rewrite. The FAQ has nothing to do with Orks.

Primortus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Karol wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I genuinely can't tell if it's incompetence (Rules writers being clueless) or malice (Deliberately under-costed to bamboozle you into buying it).

Or it's just really difficult to balance via points a model whose whole job is to make everything around him like 80% better.

I'm also not sure we can ascribe incompetence or malice as the reason for the reluctance to substantially change data sheets outside of a codex or edition release.

He seems easy to fix with just points, Give him a rule that people can only use him in game that are 3000pts or more and he is balanced in matched play, and he is fixed. All those people that want to use him in smaller games can play narrative or something like that.

If you go that route though you also have to talk about Magnus and Mortarion, both of whom are substantially better than him but would have no arbitrary 3k+ only limit.

Magnus and Mortarion are significantly better than Rowboat? What? Since when?

Since they both appear in competitive lists and Rowboat is no where to be seen anymore?

Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans. Whole "soup" thing woundlnt be an issue if we did not had Castellans. Actualy they are better in Soup than in IK lists - as they dont worry about CP and have all good gems on one IK (with more knights IK player need to choose what knight will benefit from it cause other will not).

Magnus, Mortarion & Guilliman were seen equally often in the NOVA Top 16 (and also equally as often as Ynnari Spears were seen there).

These 4 are pretty much tied as OP stuff goes.

Shining Spears on same OP level as Mortarion and Guilman

I hope GW does not read this...

Forfiter wrote:
Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans. Whole "soup" thing woundlnt be an issue if we did not had Castellans. Actualy they are better in Soup than in IK lists - as they dont worry about CP and have all good gems on one IK (with more knights IK player need to choose what knight will benefit from it cause other will not).

The thing is the more I think about it the less I agree the castellan is the problem, it's auxiliary and SH auxiliaries giving acess to strategums.
The Castellan need maybe 50 points increase.
What needs to happen otherwise is some of the strategums (definataly thr warlord trait and relic ones) in the knight codex need to be locked behind a lance then guard CP shenanigans fixed.

Forfiter wrote:
Shining Spears on same OP level as Mortarion and Guilman

I hope GW does not read this...

Ynnari Spears. As with other things discussed here, the problem here is in synergies with other mechanics you can bring into the army, more than it is with the unit as it appears on the data sheet.


Just like mitigating the worst Castellan abuse would be changes to the CP system (though the Castellan would, point for point, still need be balanced roughly equally in firepower/survivability against similar types of long range shooting like Predator tanks, etc..) Ynnari Spears can probably be toned down through ancillary mechanics. Not having access to Saim Hann/Biel Tan stratagems, if they're not actually bringing a battle-forged Saim Hann/Biel Tan army, for example, would be a good start.

Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans.

You mean Ynnari are the problem. As someone who has been playing Craftworld I have never seen Shining Spears be as broken as they are described. Hard hitting for sure when allowed to charge, but without soulburst they aren't as broken as some people would let on. Even the top 10 lists last NOVA only had one squad of Shining Spears in all 10 lists and that was an Ynnari/Drukhari mix.

So in short: Ynnari and Soup are a problem.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Forfiter wrote:
Shining Spears on same OP level as Mortarion and Guilman

I hope GW does not read this...

Ynnari Spears. As with other things discussed here, the problem here is in synergies with other mechanics you can bring into the army, more than it is with the unit as it appears on the data sheet.

Of course, Castellan on pure datasheet won't be a problem aswel.

Problem is Raven (reroll all 1s), gem to ignore damage table (wasn't their goal was to deal with such monsters?), 5++ going into ridiculusly strong 3++, Cawl plasma Castellan.

But if they design rules without checking such things it's pure incompetence and it require fix asap beacause it's unbeatable for many armies.

Saying about NOVA open, top16 can have some randoms that rolled well, look higher at top. Castellans & Ynnari spears...

Guilman, Mortarion and Magnus are perfectly fine.

Forfiter wrote:

Of course, Castellan on pure datasheet won't be a problem aswel.

Problem is Raven (reroll all 1s), gem to ignore damage table (wasn't their goal was to deal with such monsters?), 5++ going into ridiculusly strong 3++, Cawl plasma Castellan.

But if they design rules without checking such things it's pure incompetence and it require fix asap beacause it's unbeatable for many armies.

Saying about NOVA open, top16 can have some randoms that rolled well, look higher at top. Castellans & Ynnari spears...

Guilman, Mortarion and Magnus are perfectly fine.

The entire tournament scene is already the Top 0.1% of the Top 1% of army lists, simply the way tournament self-selects and biases list that appear, even at the very top tables.

Top 16 of such a prestigious and large tournament isn't too far up. Looking at the Top 16,000 of the ITC year as a whole wouldn't be amiss and still be a shockingly small sample, all things considered.

Guilliman and M&M are definitely in need of adjustment. Aside from tournament placement, you can easily playtest them against lists from their own books without these models to see that even internal balance for these guys is off.


The difference in a Ynnari list placing 3rd and Mortarion/Magnus placing 4th or so in NOVA (after losing the top-table final) isn't where the line is drawn on what's OP and what is not.

And for that particular Ynnari/Drukhari lists, the ridiculous Prophets of Flesh buff over other Coven-traits on Grotesques & Taloses is probably more worrysome than the Spears. How anyone ever thought those were balanced is still beyond me.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans.

You mean Ynnari are the problem. As someone who has been playing Craftworld I have never seen Shining Spears be as broken as they are described. Hard hitting for sure when allowed to charge, but without guide, doom, and soulburst they aren't as broken as some people would let on. Even the top 10 lists last NOVA only had one squad of Shining Spears in all 10 lists and that was an Ynnari/Drukhari mix.

So in short: Ynnari and Soup are a problem.

You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

Same with Castellan, if someone take non-Raven and no-3++ Castellan it's his/her choice, but people who are familar with basic math will see whats going on and want to be competitive will take better one. Game should be balanced between choices and to do that, compare optimal variants - if someone wants to play sub-optimal he will still can, but balance should be aware of maxed lists. You can play with 1500 points vs 2000 points if you want, but it's not the point. Arguments "casuals play different" is same as saying "go play with 1500 pts vs 2000 pts", really. You cannot make balance for this.

I want game that gives you option to pick your IK household/Aeldari faction/IG doctrine etc according to your playstyle/fluff/aescethic that are comparable with power, not to pick "optimal" vs "suboptimal" version. That should be the point of multiple options in 8ed, but currently its "pick whatever is maxing the best units" beacause of bad game balance, not bad players. I would really want to play Armageddon Chimeras mech division but it makes no sense beacause GW writen bad rules for Chimeras and Armageddon.

Forfiter wrote:


You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

But that's the point.

If you can "nerf yourself" with one option compared to another option, the options are by definition not balanced and thus need to be adjusted.


Ynnari Spears need to be balanced against CW spears if those two meet on the tournament table.

Raven Castellan need to be balanced against Terryn Valiants, when those two meet on the tournament table.

Guilliman Ultramarines need to be balanced against White Scar Primaris when they meet on the tournament table.

Mortarion & Plaguebearers need to be balanced against Plague Marines in Rhinos with Predator support, when they meet on the tournament table.

That's easily the first step before you even worry about balancing between codexes.

You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

My point was that Ynnari needs to be addressed as its own unique problem without outright killing Craftworlds.

 Eldarsif wrote:

You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

My point was that Ynnari needs to be addressed as its own unique problem without outright killing Craftworlds.

I agree but we probably both know how it will end up.

GW is blind for some obvious interactions and won't fix them directly, but will take nerfbat and beat some innocent players like pure CW spears. Same for Iguard that will probably see another nerf due to Castellan+BA+IG lists.

Look for last FAQ, where they just increased cost for reapers and "nerfed" Ynnari with some minor psyker test levels that they can do 99% times anyway. So Ynnari reapers are still monsters while CW reapers are now totally fair and maybe even not worth.

GW way is probably giving Castellan point increase what will make non-Raven-cawl Castellans even worse. They should deal with 1cp "ignore table", Cawl plasma and 3++ instead but we all know they won't.

Forfiter wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans.

You mean Ynnari are the problem. As someone who has been playing Craftworld I have never seen Shining Spears be as broken as they are described. Hard hitting for sure when allowed to charge, but without guide, doom, and soulburst they aren't as broken as some people would let on. Even the top 10 lists last NOVA only had one squad of Shining Spears in all 10 lists and that was an Ynnari/Drukhari mix.

So in short: Ynnari and Soup are a problem.

You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

Same with Castellan, if someone take non-Raven and no-3++ Castellan it's his/her choice, but people who are familar with basic math will see whats going on and want to be competitive will take better one. Game should be balanced between choices and to do that, compare optimal variants - if someone wants to play sub-optimal he will still can, but balance should be aware of maxed lists. You can play with 1500 points vs 2000 points if you want, but it's not the point. Arguments "casuals play different" is same as saying "go play with 1500 pts vs 2000 pts", really. You cannot make balance for this.

I want game that gives you option to pick your IK household/Aeldari faction/IG doctrine etc according to your playstyle/fluff/aescethic that are comparable with power, not to pick "optimal" vs "suboptimal" version. That should be the point of multiple options in 8ed, but currently its "pick whatever is maxing the best units" beacause of bad game balance, not bad players. I would really want to play Armageddon Chimeras mech division but it makes no sense beacause GW writen bad rules for Chimeras and Armageddon.

Think his point is that if you just nerf shining spears on their own hard you can easily end up in situation where shining spears on CW will be 100% useless while with ynnari soup they would then be OK. That's not good situation either. You would need to deal with the BROKEN part of that which is them in YNNARI SOUP without making them total suckers without being part of ynnari soup.

Ie nerf the ynnari soup part of the equation rather than base shining spear.

If we had competent designers intending for balanced game that's where we would be aiming for. Alas FAQ is just another way of GW pushing models so instead we will get bunch of changes intended to shuffle meta around(what the new meta is GW doesn't care as long as it's different enough tournament players are rushing to buy new models).

Truth to be told I wasn't against the Dark Reaper nerf in the last big FAQ. Even after the point increase they are still good and I still use them.

Spears I might stop using if they get a big price hike. I find them way too situational and reliant on psychic powers proccing at the right time making them decent at getting recon or behind enemy lines when you need something fast moving, but for that you could technically just use Windriders.

Forfiter wrote:

You can nerf your list by yourself taking CW Spears instead of Ynnari but you cannot expect your opponents to do the same. Ynnari is the best choice for them and they will be used and need to be deal with.

Same with Castellan, if someone take non-Raven and no-3++ Castellan it's his/her choice, but people who are familar with basic math will see whats going on and want to be competitive will take better one. Game should be balanced between choices and to do that, compare optimal variants - if someone wants to play sub-optimal he will still can, but balance should be aware of maxed lists. You can play with 1500 points vs 2000 points if you want, but it's not the point. Arguments "casuals play different" is same as saying "go play with 1500 pts vs 2000 pts", really. You cannot make balance for this.

I want game that gives you option to pick your IK household/Aeldari faction/IG doctrine etc according to your playstyle/fluff/aescethic that are comparable with power, not to pick "optimal" vs "suboptimal" version. That should be the point of multiple options in 8ed, but currently its "pick whatever is maxing the best units" beacause of bad game balance, not bad players. I would really want to play Armageddon Chimeras mech division but it makes no sense beacause GW writen bad rules for Chimeras and Armageddon.

Just to clarrify Yannari is 1 problem in that they have a bonus thats equivelent to 20 CP's worth of additional activities per game.
Imagine vanguard vets that could double fight for free and double shooting hellblasters. They would go from mediocre to auto include units.

Also point of clarity its not a 3++ its a 4++ thats boosted to 3++ for 3 CP per phase.
Same with Slamquinius's they only exsist in soup as only Guard has the CP insanity to sustain them over multiple turns.

Ie nerf the ynnari soup part of the equation rather than base shining spear.

Exactly.

At some point GW has to make a decision regarding how they want to approach the Ynnari. They can either change their trait completely or give Ynnari their own separate point list for all available units. They really need to detach Ynnari from the rest of the Aeldari race and make them a completely discrete faction.

Give Ynnari a codex and in this way fix it.
But SfD has already been nerfed so that I guess GW will keep it as it is.
However, GW could address soup.

Audustum wrote:
Yeah, I don't remember them actually changing the Fall one. That won't stop them though. I don't think they really feel bound by it.

Please - GW are British. Assuming this one shifts to a seasonal name, it'll be Autumn, not Fall

 Crimson wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If they point bump Guiliman again I'll laugh my butt off. At that point they are really just kicking a corpse. Insert the "Stop it he's already dead" Simpsons meme.

Excellent! Now kill him in the fluff too!

You really need some therapy, dude.

* * *

General aside - anyone else find it weird that the FAQ documents seem to have so few Q's getting A's?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If they point bump Guiliman again I'll laugh my butt off. At that point they are really just kicking a corpse. Insert the "Stop it he's already dead" Simpsons meme.

Excellent! Now kill him in the fluff too!

You really need some therapy, dude.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but Crimson does seem to insert Guilliman hate all over the place...

Forfiter wrote:
Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans. Whole "soup" thing woundlnt be an issue if we did not had Castellans. Actualy they are better in Soup than in IK lists - as they dont worry about CP and have all good gems on one IK (with more knights IK player need to choose what knight will benefit from it cause other will not).

If the Castellan was the problem the Chaos Castellan would be making a big show also. It is not. Ergo the Castellan isn't the problem.

So much fail in this thread right now. Guilliman is "Fine" and spears are only broken because Ynnari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:

Forfiter wrote:
Rowboat is curretnly fine, SM are dead in competitive anyway

We need quick FAQ to deal with broken Castellans and shining spears. Those 2 are breaking the game now just ignore anyone saying Guilman is the problem, they probably never been/saw current tournament lists. It's all about Eldar soulbursting spears+reapers and imperiual Castellans. Whole "soup" thing woundlnt be an issue if we did not had Castellans. Actualy they are better in Soup than in IK lists - as they dont worry about CP and have all good gems on one IK (with more knights IK player need to choose what knight will benefit from it cause other will not).

If the Castellan was the problem the Chaos Castellan would be making a big show also. It is not. Ergo the Castellan isn't the problem.

They just win tournaments with crusaders instead. Also - Choas knights don't get an army trait - that just makes them weaker options than Imperial Knights anyways.