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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't mention degradation. You're making gak up now.

Marine gear is over costed across the board for the most part. A Las cannon certainly isnt worth 25 pts with all the invulns and quantum shields in the game.

If Marine gear is overcosted, then so is gear for Scions or Veterans in the Guard book.

And if a Lascannon isn't worth 25pts on a Marine why should it be worth 20 on a Guard unit?

There is definitely an issue with cost on some things in the Marine codex (why in the Flip-Belt is a Bolt Carbine fifteen points despite being the same statline as the Auto bolt rifle for example), but the issue is more that the Lascannon is bad at it's job of killing tanks when compared to things like Autocannons or even Plasma.

I mean, we've had this kind of thing being an issue for years. It's not going to get better until we start seeing some kind of "shots continue in a line" perk for weapons like Lascannons and Railguns.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't mention degradation. You're making gak up now.

Marine gear is over costed across the board for the most part. A Las cannon certainly isnt worth 25 pts with all the invulns and quantum shields in the game.

If Marine gear is overcosted, then so is gear for Scions or Veterans in the Guard book.

And if a Lascannon isn't worth 25pts on a Marine why should it be worth 20 on a Guard unit?

There is definitely an issue with cost on some things in the Marine codex (why in the Flip-Belt is a Bolt Carbine fifteen points despite being the same statline as the Auto bolt rifle for example), but the issue is more that the Lascannon is bad at it's job of killing tanks when compared to things like Autocannons or even Plasma.

I mean, we've had this kind of thing being an issue for years. It's not going to get better until we start seeing some kind of "shots continue in a line" perk for weapons like Lascannons and Railguns.

Agreed. That said, a problem is a problem, and the lascannon isn't worth as much as we pay for it as it is right now. Hopefully they'll fix it in the future.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't mention degradation. You're making gak up now.

Marine gear is over costed across the board for the most part. A Las cannon certainly isnt worth 25 pts with all the invulns and quantum shields in the game.

If Marine gear is overcosted, then so is gear for Scions or Veterans in the Guard book.

And if a Lascannon isn't worth 25pts on a Marine why should it be worth 20 on a Guard unit?

There is definitely an issue with cost on some things in the Marine codex (why in the Flip-Belt is a Bolt Carbine fifteen points despite being the same statline as the Auto bolt rifle for example), but the issue is more that the Lascannon is bad at it's job of killing tanks when compared to things like Autocannons or even Plasma.

I mean, we've had this kind of thing being an issue for years. It's not going to get better until we start seeing some kind of "shots continue in a line" perk for weapons like Lascannons and Railguns.

Agreed. That said, a problem is a problem, and the lascannon isn't worth as much as we pay for it as it is right now. Hopefully they'll fix it in the future.

But again, that's not the issue specific to what a certain individual was complaining about. The initial comment was him talking down to someone saying they'd run lascannon Predators against LRBT Command Tanks because of the points spent on lascannons.

He continually talks about how hard Marines have it while ignoring that he does get a stat bonus that others don't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't mention degradation. You're making gak up now.

Marine gear is over costed across the board for the most part. A Las cannon certainly isnt worth 25 pts with all the invulns and quantum shields in the game.

If Marine gear is overcosted, then so is gear for Scions or Veterans in the Guard book.

And if a Lascannon isn't worth 25pts on a Marine why should it be worth 20 on a Guard unit?

There is definitely an issue with cost on some things in the Marine codex (why in the Flip-Belt is a Bolt Carbine fifteen points despite being the same statline as the Auto bolt rifle for example), but the issue is more that the Lascannon is bad at it's job of killing tanks when compared to things like Autocannons or even Plasma.

I mean, we've had this kind of thing being an issue for years. It's not going to get better until we start seeing some kind of "shots continue in a line" perk for weapons like Lascannons and Railguns.

Agreed. That said, a problem is a problem, and the lascannon isn't worth as much as we pay for it as it is right now. Hopefully they'll fix it in the future.

But again, that's not the issue specific to what a certain individual was complaining about. The initial comment was him talking down to someone saying they'd run lascannon Predators against LRBT Command Tanks because of the points spent on lascannons.

He continually talks about how hard Marines have it while ignoring that he does get a stat bonus that others don't.

A stat bonus tied with an increased points cost. It's not like we're getting this stuff for free. We don't even get the Lascannon for the same cost as the Guard despite paying for that stat bonus already meaning we pay for it twice on our heavy weapons. Once on the model carrying it, and a second time on the gun.

I can see why someone would be salty about that.

Aren't IG lascannons superior to marine ones, by the sole virtue of its carrier costing 1/3 the pts, and everything IG being in general on the lower points cost part of the cost curve?

A single unit of GK armed stock with SB, costs more then a whole battalion of IG. And if the GK players buys in to rhinos or special weapons, it becomes even crazier.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

A stat bonus tied with an increased points cost. It's not like we're getting this stuff for free. We don't even get the Lascannon for the same cost as the Guard despite paying for that stat bonus already meaning we pay for it twice on our heavy weapons. Once on the model carrying it, and a second time on the gun.

I can see why someone would be salty about that.

I would love to be sympathetic to you about that...but I can't be. I pay Marine prices for Plasma and Meltaguns on my two BS3+ units(Veterans and Scions). Yeah, Scions/Veterans are still cheaper than a Marine but it doesn't change that I'm paying twice for the same deal. Once on the model carrying it and a second time on the gun itself.

People wanted this silliness to be a thing.

Karol wrote:Aren't IG lascannons superior to marine ones, by the sole virtue of its carrier costing 1/3 the pts, and everything IG being in general on the lower points cost part of the cost curve?

It doesn't have a single carrier. It requires two models in an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad to be given up in exchange for them forming a Heavy Weapons Team that then pays for their gun.

A single unit of GK armed stock with SB, costs more then a whole battalion of IG. And if the GK players buys in to rhinos or special weapons, it becomes even crazier.

And that single unit can Combat Squad into two units while that whole battalion of IG are stuck with whatever their initial squad setup is.

I'm not blind to the plight of GK but let's not pretend that the elite army paying more for their units than the horde army should be a shocking thing.

But the differences are big, plus it is not like you can buy less then 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team or less then 10 for an IG squad, so your buying the dudes anyway.
saying you need 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team, would be as If I suddenly wanted 3 man interceptor squads.

You can use normal marines in the example too. And lascannon section, not saying a lascannon is the end be of weapons in 8th, is more efficient for IG then for marines. The very fact you can get more of them, means they are better. Growth of anything in w40k is geometric. So having 6 lascannons is more then twice as good then having 3.

also on a more realistical basis. IG can actually use lascannons on their units, it won't cripple their army. Marines on the other hand either use scouts, and those don't have access to lascannons. Non of the primaris have access to them either. Devastators are played by marine players, byt hey are always armed with heavy bolters.

And yes I know that mortar hwt are better then lascannon ones. Still IG armies can, if they want to, use lascannons on their dudes. Marines do not have the option.

Karol wrote:
But the differences are big, plus it is not like you can buy less then 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team or less then 10 for an IG squad, so your buying the dudes anyway.
saying you need 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team, would be as If I suddenly wanted 3 man interceptor squads.

I'm pretty sure you missed the point there. It's not a 4 pt model being swapped out, it's two bodies totaling 8 points being swapped out into one model that has the same statline barring the Wound value being bumped up by 1.

You can use normal marines in the example too. And lascannon section, not saying a lascannon is the end be of weapons in 8th, is more efficient for IG then for marines. The very fact you can get more of them, means they are better. Growth of anything in w40k is geometric. So having 6 lascannons is more then twice as good then having 3.

also on a more realistical basis. IG can actually use lascannons on their units, it won't cripple their army. Marines on the other hand either use scouts, and those don't have access to lascannons. Non of the primaris have access to them either. Devastators are played by marine players, byt hey are always armed with heavy bolters.

And yes I know that mortar hwt are better then lascannon ones. Still IG armies can, if they want to, use lascannons on their dudes. Marines do not have the option.

Sure they do. They're called "Tactical Squads".

If you want to take them? They're there. Not my fault the option is less than appealing--but the same thing goes for Scions or Conscripts. If I take either of those units as my Troops--no lascannons on either one.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Karol wrote:
But the differences are big, plus it is not like you can buy less then 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team or less then 10 for an IG squad, so your buying the dudes anyway.
saying you need 2 dudes for a hvy weapon team, would be as If I suddenly wanted 3 man interceptor squads.

I'm pretty sure you missed the point there. It's not a 4 pt model being swapped out, it's two bodies totaling 8 points being swapped out into one model that has the same statline barring the Wound value being bumped up by 1.

Yeah, but the team gets to have both the lascannon and a lasgun. The only tangible differences would be getting shot with a D2 weapon, or failing morale just right.

Marine Lascannons buff farther, imo that's why. A well buffed Marine Lascannons is worth twice as much as a stock Guard Lascannon.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Marine Lascannons buff farther, imo that's why. A well buffed Marine Lascannons is worth twice as much as a stock Guard Lascannon.

what? re-roll 1's to hit and wound if you spend another the cost of 4 IG commanders who can buff more stuff?

I question the notion that SM lascannons become more cost effective then Guard Lascannons.

Probably depends on your build, as at larger point values you can get more value out of commander buffs. But in my army, for example, I'm doing a Chapter Master plus Iieutenant buff, which puts a Lascannon at more than double the damage output of a plain old Guard 4+ to hit. (Vs. Standard vehicle profile).

Or for funsies we could compare to Salamander-Tactical-Lascannons which would give 236% damage output over a BS4+, at no additional HQ costs.

A guard Lascannon is 60 points on an Infantry Squad
Your Salamander buffed lascannon costs 224 with everything basic. (Captain, Lieutenant, Tactical Squad with Lascannon)
At 236% more damage your less cost effective then a bunch of basic lascannon infantry squads without Regiment bonus or Orders.

(ofc aura's can benefit more then 1 lascannon but this is not counting any buffs/traits for the Guard which will bring their effectiveness up aswell)

 Ordana wrote:
A guard Lascannon is 60 points on an Infantry Squad
Your Salamander buffed lascannon costs 224 with everything basic. (Captain, Lieutenant, Tactical Squad with Lascannon)
At 236% more damage your less cost effective then a bunch of basic lascannon infantry squads without Regiment bonus or Orders.

(ofc aura's can benefit more then 1 lascannon but this is not counting any buffs/traits for the Guard which will bring their effectiveness up aswell)

Whut?

Salamanders chapter tactics are free. A Tac Squad plus Lascannon is 90. Salamanders trait is reroll one hit and one wound per squad per phase (shooting and assault). No HQs are required in this scenario. Cost is just the squad+weapon, Lascannon effectiveness is 236% over base Guard.

There are two parts to my post. First part is: scenario, no faction traits. Second Part is using faction trait for free buffs. Yes, as I alluded to, a single squad plus Lt. And Captain would be a poor return on points spent, but if you're using to buff the rest of a 2000 point army, the value increases dramatically.

Now, of course Guard can bring their own buffs, but they can't buff nearly as much afaik. In fact, even rerolling 1s for Guard isn't as effective as rerolling 1s as Space Marines since they naturally have 3/4ths the accuracy to begin with.

The BS 4 excuse has worn thin for there being so many overpowered ig units.

Because very few units actually have true durability in 8th, cheaper is almost always better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
A guard Lascannon is 60 points on an Infantry Squad
Your Salamander buffed lascannon costs 224 with everything basic. (Captain, Lieutenant, Tactical Squad with Lascannon)
At 236% more damage your less cost effective then a bunch of basic lascannon infantry squads without Regiment bonus or Orders.

(ofc aura's can benefit more then 1 lascannon but this is not counting any buffs/traits for the Guard which will bring their effectiveness up aswell)

Whut?

Salamanders chapter tactics are free. A Tac Squad plus Lascannon is 90. Salamanders trait is reroll one hit and one wound per squad per phase (shooting and assault). No HQs are required in this scenario. Cost is just the squad+weapon, Lascannon effectiveness is 236% over base Guard.

There are two parts to my post. First part is: scenario, no faction traits. Second Part is using faction trait for free buffs. Yes, as I alluded to, a single squad plus Lt. And Captain would be a poor return on points spent, but if you're using to buff the rest of a 2000 point army, the value increases dramatically.

Now, of course Guard can bring their own buffs, but they can't buff nearly as much afaik. In fact, even rerolling 1s for Guard isn't as effective as rerolling 1s as Space Marines since they naturally have 3/4ths the accuracy to begin with.

My bad, derped on the Salamander trait. Yes, under ideal conditions of firing only 1 gun a Salamander Tactical Squad is 58% more effective then a Cadian Infantry Squad with Take Aim for the same cost.
But that is ideal situations for the Salamander.

Still tho, your right. Its possible for a SM Lascannon to be better then a Guard Lascannon. In certain situation.

 Ordana wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
A guard Lascannon is 60 points on an Infantry Squad
Your Salamander buffed lascannon costs 224 with everything basic. (Captain, Lieutenant, Tactical Squad with Lascannon)
At 236% more damage your less cost effective then a bunch of basic lascannon infantry squads without Regiment bonus or Orders.

(ofc aura's can benefit more then 1 lascannon but this is not counting any buffs/traits for the Guard which will bring their effectiveness up aswell)

Whut?

Salamanders chapter tactics are free. A Tac Squad plus Lascannon is 90. Salamanders trait is reroll one hit and one wound per squad per phase (shooting and assault). No HQs are required in this scenario. Cost is just the squad+weapon, Lascannon effectiveness is 236% over base Guard.

There are two parts to my post. First part is: scenario, no faction traits. Second Part is using faction trait for free buffs. Yes, as I alluded to, a single squad plus Lt. And Captain would be a poor return on points spent, but if you're using to buff the rest of a 2000 point army, the value increases dramatically.

Now, of course Guard can bring their own buffs, but they can't buff nearly as much afaik. In fact, even rerolling 1s for Guard isn't as effective as rerolling 1s as Space Marines since they naturally have 3/4ths the accuracy to begin with.

My bad, derped on the Salamander trait. Yes, under ideal conditions of firing only 1 gun a Salamander Tactical Squad is 58% more effective then a Cadian Infantry Squad with Take Aim for the same cost.
But that is ideal situations for the Salamander.

Still tho, your right. Its possible for a SM Lascannon to be better then a Guard Lascannon. In certain situation.

Well, I'd argue that in 8th, That's the Space Marines whole MO. They way they compete is maximising their buffs. I think the "certain situation" is basically assumed by the points costs.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I have no problem killing command russes with mi lass cannon predators or Plasma-Cannon devastators.

One 3++ Castellan? Hmm... not that much.

I dont use ap dependent shooting anymore. You lost when you brought predators and paid marine prices for lascannons.

You're BS3+. You should be paying Marine prices for lascannons.

Degradation doesn't mean the item should cost less. Christ, I can't even imagine your whining if I paid BS5/6+ prices for Lascannons or Battle Cannons on LRBTs because of degrading stats.

That would only matter if those platforms cost the same. For example, a Lascannon will always be better in an Infantry squad than a Tactical or Sternguard squad. Price differences really shouldn't exist.

Yes, they should. Ideally, all weapons should be costed for every single unit, because you can't put the same cost to a meele weapon for a unit with deepstrike than for a slow unit than for a character. Yeah, the deepstrike unit pays for the cost of deepstriking but if they have other options like shooting weapons then you end up with some options being overcosted or undercosted.

All weapons should be individually balanced and costed in the context of the unit that is wearing it. Of course thats difficult.