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Onething123456 wrote:

That doesn't make sense to me. She could very well have been lying.

Or not. We don't know.

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?

Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc

That doesn't make sense to me. She could very well have been lying.

... she could have been lying, but lying would imply she knew the Emperor's exact orgins and decided to say something differant instead. It's more realistic to assume she (like everyone else) does not know who or what the emperor is, and thus has developed her own theory on it, as she does not parituclarly support the emperor, her partiuclar theory tends to be a somewhat negitive one.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)

That's what I think. It's like a classic sci-fi story - someone made an intelligent weapon and it went way out of control. The Emperor was made to fight Chaos and he expanded that to basically everyone.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)

That's what I think. It's like a classic sci-fi story - someone made an intelligent weapon and it went way out of control. The Emperor was made to fight Chaos and he expanded that to basically everyone.

there's the old "we made a robot with the directive to protect us, and decided the best way to protect us was to rule us" story

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)

But only the Emperor knows of his creation being a weapon if he fells that he is one. How would she or anyone find that out. I doubt it would be common knowledge.

I could see it being like the movie version of I Robot. He was originally given a narrow task, fight Chaos and eventually determined the best way to do that was take over humanity by force, break into the web way, pretend chaos isn't real in a misguided attempt to weaken it ( though this might have worked if he had at least let the primarchs known the truth) and eventually wipe out most alien species.

Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

 Manchu wrote:
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

pretty much I don't know anyone who puts weight in it beyond "intreasting idea"

 Manchu wrote:
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.

phillv85 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.

Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.

They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.

"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"

Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.

Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.

Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.

They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.

"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"

Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.

They were originally going to conquer the Laer, not wipe them out. It shows the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.

Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.

Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.

They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.

"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"

Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.

They were originally going to conquer the Laer, not wipe them out. It shows the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.

That's wrong, first of all the part in Fulgrim is about the council of terra, 'debating' about what to with them. And they were only debating on how to deal with them, it says nothing of planning to let the species live. The Emperor said nothing about the matter and the Emperor himself taught that xenos can't be allowed to live. Its well known lore that the Emperor ordered the extinction of xenos:

"The Angel looked at his primarch brother. ‘But that is not necessary. Vengeance is not necessary. There is xenos here, implacable alien menace that rejects any civilised intercourse with man-kind, and has greeted us with murder and murder alone. That suffices. As the Emperor, beloved by all, has taught us, since the start of our crusade, what is anathema to mankind must be dealt with directly to ensure the continued survival of the Imperium. Will you stand with me?’‘We will murder Murder together,’ Horus replied."

‘We should have known!’ Horus snapped.‘Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex,’ Aximand said. ‘We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead, they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.’‘We annihilate,’ said Horus. ‘They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?’Aximand rose to his feet. ‘I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. The interex is admirable, but it is forgiving and generous in its dealings with xenos breeds who deserve no quarter.’‘It has brought them to book, and learned to live in sympathy,’ said Horus. ‘It has trained the kinebrach to—’ ‘And that’s the best example I can offer!’ Aximand replied. ‘The kinebrach. It embraces them as part of its culture.

‘And only a fool appeases aliens!’ Abaddon snarled. ‘What has this crusade taught us?’‘That we’re very good at killing things that disagree with us?’ suggested Torgaddon.Abaddon glared at him. ‘We know how brutal this cosmos is. How cruel. We must fight for our place in it. Name one species we have met that would not rejoice to see mankind vanished in a blink.’None of them could answer that.‘Only a fool appeases aliens,’ Abaddon repeated, ‘or appeases


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Well he is human but he also isn't exactly human.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

My two pence worth. She’s as reliable as everyone who has described him. No more so or less so. As in they are all equally unreliable. As for her knowing she was to die, under British law that adds to her credibility not reduces it. Testimony of a dying person held in high regard now. But this is a story so who knows?

As for He being human? He has always been the “new man”. Something more than human. I like the idea of him being DOAT but it’s as credible as him being an old one or a master psyker or the combined souls of thousands of shaman. Her statements certainly cast a seed of doubt, would be cool in a way if he was AI or some such. We may never know.

 Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

I think that if Beastmen, Ratlings, Ogryns, Squats and the Catpeople (Felionids?) listed in the back of 6th or 7th ed book, the Abhumans, are "human" enough, the Primarchs and the Emperor are also human. Space Marines are enhanced humans in the same way Captain America is still human - base genome with a little something extra.



I actually prefer the new fluff that he was a shaman spirit thing, but I do l like the mysticism and appeal of the "nothing special" origin

I imagine the Emperor is dual-natured. He is both fully human as well as fully "divine" in the typical 40k sense. Put it another way, he is probably something akin to a "naturally occuring" Daemon Prince.

Onething123456 wrote:

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.

Why does her being an enemy of the emperor make her any more of an unreliable source than an obedient subject of the emperor? It seems that her being an enemy would actually make her more likely, rather than less, to tell the truth about his real nature if she knew it as she has no obligation to preserve the lie which those who are loyal do.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.

Why does her being an enemy of the emperor make her any more of an unreliable source than an obedient subject of the emperor? It seems that her being an enemy would actually make her more likely, rather than less, to tell the truth about his real nature if she knew it as she has no obligation to preserve the lie which those who are loyal do.

She also has more reason to lie and try and plant doubt in the minds of his follower, as one last spiteful jab. In the same way we now question her truth and you say she had no reason to lie, perhaps she hoped Valdor would also ask why she would lie (and come to the same conclusion I did, to try and plant doubt)

 Crimson wrote:
It really doesn't come across as lying. She is probably saying what she believes to be the truth, though of course that's different from it actually being the truth.

It really doesn't come across as lying. She is probably saying what she believes to be the truth, though of course that's different from it actually being the truth.

.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.

But they were also grown with the Emperor's DNA. If you take the backstory of the shamans as canon, this would mean that the Emperor is also genetically human, and only his soul, conglomerated from the souls of the shamans, disinguishes him. This would also mean that the Primarchs are also genetically human, if not in full. They are also not close to Daemon Princes. A Daemon Prince is when a mortal soul is raised up and bonded the Warp becoming part of it like all Daemons are. If they were like Daemon Princes already they could not be made into princes by the Gods, which they can.

He didn't say primarch are daemon princes though...just that they are closer to those than humans which they def are. Even if humans would naturally grow as big with equal muscles they would still be like infants against pro wrestler. Primarch are so far beyond humans it's hard to imagine