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Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
No, I said he could not be DAOT tech because of his talk with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh. And whether you guys like it or not, the Perpetuals are part of the lore.
He is not DAOT tech, as Zo was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 03:50:59
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
No, I said he could not be DAOT tech because of his talk with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh. And whether you guys like it or not, the Perpetuals are part of the lore.
He is not DAOT tech, as Zo was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.
No you said he couldn't be DAOT because he was tied to Drach'nyn before that. Drach'nyn is destined to kill him but that has nothing to do with when he was born or created, the only time in the lore that Drach'nyn is mentioned in regards to the Emperor is the master of mankind novel.. I love the perpetual lore so I don't know where you are getting that from and I'm not arguing that the Emperor is from the DAOT, I'm arguing that there could be a reason why Za is connecting him to the DAOT. There is no lore that says the Emperor is tied to Drach'nyn or pre-history lore.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 04:04:00
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Where precisely does it say they were going to wipe the Laer? They were originally going to conquer them. Please underline where it says they were going to wipe them out if it exists. Do you realize that "subjugation" means just controlling them? It also said they were originally going to "conquer" the Laer.
Because they were ordered to exterminate the Laer. The administrators of the council of Terra only suggested not wiping them out, they decided against that, deciding to wipe them out which they did...
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun."
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 04:11:01
When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/12 04:27:13
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 05:46:45
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
Or Noah, He likes kitten, so he's obviously an animal lover and the way he treats humans also has a great flood feth all humans vibe.
Also, it could be possible that the emperor is both a product of the DAoT and a creation of ancient shamans.
Ancient shamans create emperor, but he is later killed or dies. Then he is resurrected/recreated in the DAoT through a combination of technology and sorcery, intended to be used as a weapon and imprinted with the goal of humanities supremacy and survival.
This way you could have the Emperor of old be more human and have his humanity be stripped away by his resurrection through technology and his drive and vision for humanity is as a result of incredibly powerful technological conditioning of his mind during that process..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 09:06:33
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
no, assuming what we know of his orgins in Master of Mankind is true, Drachyen was created when Cain murdered Able, but the emperor was born considerably later of another man whose brother killed him
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
no, assuming what we know of his orgins in Master of Mankind is true, Drachyen was created when Cain murdered Able, but the emperor was born considerably later of another man whose brother killed him
I just had an idea for Goldilocks origin... Necrons(or C'tan)!
Think about it, 3rd ed Necron dex mentions that someone tinkered with humanity at some point for nefarious purposes.
So, the humanity is modified so shamans/Emps/perpetuals eventually emerge - inevitably one or more of these immortal beings will eventually become xenophobic idiots who think that they have the universe all figured out and know everything better that any one else and as such think themselves fit to rule the universe.
Since such creatures are made from the meek humanity they aren't capable enough to actually take over the universe and having lived too long has left these beings with a superiority complex which prevents them from seeing that what they want is impossible. In their endless bid to get what they want they only manage to sow discord in the galaxy, creating more and more mistrust, hate and violence - thus hindering the chance that the species of the galaxy would unite and have any chance to stand up against the Necron(or C'tan), which the Eldar admit to be the only way for the galaxy to survive against Necrons.
Think about it, 3rd ed Necron dex mentions that someone tinkered with humanity at some point for nefarious purposes.
So, the humanity is modified so shamans/Emps/perpetuals eventually emerge - inevitably one or more of these immortal beings will eventually become xenophobic idiots who think that they have the universe all figured out and know everything better that any one else and as such think themselves fit to rule the universe.
Since such creatures are made from the meek humanity they aren't capable enough to actually take over the universe and having lived too long has left these beings with a superiority complex which prevents them from seeing that what they want is impossible. In their endless bid to get what they want they only manage to sow discord in the galaxy, creating more and more mistrust, hate and violence - thus hindering the chance that the species of the galaxy would unite and have any chance to stand up against the Necron(or C'tan), which the Eldar admit to be the only way for the galaxy to survive against Necrons.
Necrons did Emprah!
No Necrons had awoken during Earths biological evolution, so they probably got samples from humans and noticed it had been tinkered with, I doubt it was them. No one knows if the necrons waking up is designed for this time though, it would seem they'd all wake up at once if their tech is so good, so they might just sleep past the tyranids eating everything or the orks having the ultimate fun. Or the Whole galaxy might end up like the eye and the great rift as Chaos plans or the tau might make it 10 light years from their own system lol
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 10:00:28
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
The Emperor did not exist during the first murder, he was born to a family in a village which is fact as he showed RA, it was way after as they had agriculture, dogs had been domesticated, they had mud huts, clay pots. they also had bronze swords etc so it was the bronze age 3000BC-1200BC, at the time of his childhood. The first murder would be when humans first branched off from homo-erectus, 200,000 - 300,000 years before the Emperor was born. Again the Emperor is in no way whatsoever tied to Drach'nyn, its just destined to kill him.
“The boy who would be king held his father’s skull in his hands. He turned it slowly, running his fingertips across the contours of skinless bone. A thumb, still browned with field dirt, traced across the blunt ivory pegs of the gap-toothed death smile. He lifted his eyes to the stone shelf where the other skulls sat in silent vigil. They stared into the hut’s gloomy confines, their eyes replaced by smooth stones, their faces restored with the crude artistry of clay. It was the boy’s place to remake his father’s face in the same way, sculpting the familiar features with wet mud and slow swipes of a flint knife, then letting the skull bake dry in the high sun. The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition. First he needed answers. He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time. The boy who would be king rose from the floor of his family’s hut and walked out into the settlement, his father’s skull clutched in one hand. Mud-brick huts lined both sides of the river. The wheat-fields to the east were a patchwork sea of dark gold beneath the eye of the setting sun. The village was never truly quiet, even after the day’s work was done. Families talked and laughed and fought. Dogs barked for attention and whined for food. The wind set the scrubland trees to singing, with the hiss of leaves and the creak of branches forming their eternal song. A ragged dog growled as the boy passed, yet fled yelping when he gave it no more than a glance. A carrion bird, hunchbacked and evil of eye, cried out above the village."
Tonnes of evidence showing that he lived during the bronze age so actually after the rogue trader 8,000 BC.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 10:59:28
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
My bad I got you mixed up with someone else in a massive bubble of quoted text. No need to attack DC over reading comp.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
I can see how you get the implication that he's tied to Drach through his father's murder and his murder of his uncle being what spurred him on to create an Empire, I'm not sure I am 100% behind that as there's been countless murders over the years where someone probably decided they needed to do something for the good of others. But it very well could be part of what tied them together.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 15:19:13
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
I fail to see how "conquering" means wiping them out. Sorry if I came off as an ass.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
The Emperor did not exist during the first murder, he was born to a family in a village which is fact as he showed RA, it was way after as they had agriculture, dogs had been domesticated, they had mud huts, clay pots. they also had bronze swords etc so it was the bronze age 3000BC-1200BC, at the time of his childhood. The first murder would be when humans first branched off from homo-erectus, 200,000 - 300,000 years before the Emperor was born. Again the Emperor is in no way whatsoever tied to Drach'nyn, its just destined to kill him.
“The boy who would be king held his father’s skull in his hands. He turned it slowly, running his fingertips across the contours of skinless bone. A thumb, still browned with field dirt, traced across the blunt ivory pegs of the gap-toothed death smile. He lifted his eyes to the stone shelf where the other skulls sat in silent vigil. They stared into the hut’s gloomy confines, their eyes replaced by smooth stones, their faces restored with the crude artistry of clay. It was the boy’s place to remake his father’s face in the same way, sculpting the familiar features with wet mud and slow swipes of a flint knife, then letting the skull bake dry in the high sun. The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition. First he needed answers. He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time. The boy who would be king rose from the floor of his family’s hut and walked out into the settlement, his father’s skull clutched in one hand. Mud-brick huts lined both sides of the river. The wheat-fields to the east were a patchwork sea of dark gold beneath the eye of the setting sun. The village was never truly quiet, even after the day’s work was done. Families talked and laughed and fought. Dogs barked for attention and whined for food. The wind set the scrubland trees to singing, with the hiss of leaves and the creak of branches forming their eternal song. A ragged dog growled as the boy passed, yet fled yelping when he gave it no more than a glance. A carrion bird, hunchbacked and evil of eye, cried out above the village."
Tonnes of evidence showing that he lived during the bronze age so actually after the rogue trader 8,000 BC.
I prefer reading the shaman origin from the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. And Perpetual Oll Persson.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/12 18:21:45
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/12 18:28:57
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/09/12 19:01:26
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
Did I forget to say sorry if I came off an an ass? Sorry if I did.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/12 23:22:21
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 00:37:10
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 01:08:11
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Well to a degree it was both because they were Aliens and they had technology and beliefs superior to humanity.
