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My group has always interpreted DMC as being allowed to jump behind enemy lines. Just because on surface level it seems like they start out on the field, and then get redeployed (no keyword intended).
Deciever also can get behind enemy lines, whereas nurglings can't. Their rules specificy that restriction.
Doesn't seem super complicated to me unless you want to argue for a specific result.
As stated in the info graphic the tactical reserves beta rule effects units that have not yet deployed. Units that have already started on the table (ie - arrived) are not affected by the rule.
To answer Raven's question RAW yes you can place units elsewhere on the board as long as they have already arrived on the table.
Actually, not quite true. If you read the graphic, they emphasize that the rule doesn't apply to units that were set up on the board during deployment. They did not say that you could use them on a unit that sets up in its own deployment zone during turn 1 to be moved outside the deplyment zone. So, you wouldn't get to use Dark Matter Crystal on reinforcements initially arriving during Turn 1.
The rule states that units that arrive on turn one must be placed within their deployment zone.
So you if you place them in your deployment zone they have arrived. If you now move the units with dark matter crystal etc it is a legal move to put them elsewhere on the board because they have already arrived.
Again, I don't think it's particularly complex.
Can't respond too often, on holiday
If you are not playing by the Facebook post, then BCB would be correct for any unit that gets removed from the battlefield and comde on again, as they are described as being removed from the battlefield, then come on again, and units coming on mid-turn are desctibed as reinforcements. But, I velieve you are probably trying to play it by the Facebook post.
Unfortunately, the Facebook post also denies what you said. (mhalko1 has helpfully posted the page that GW put out on Facebook about this; it's the last post on page 1 of the thread if you wish to look at the entire thing.)
The Facebook post with the page clarifying the Tactical Reserves rul states "But this rule doesn't apply to any units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment; these units can still use abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers to put the pressure on opponents." You are ignoring the key two words that I underlined. It doesn't excuse everyone who has been set up on the battlefield, but only those who were set up during deployment. So, while you would be correct in saying you can use things like da Jump on units that start the game on the board, this isn't true for any units that arrive during turn on. We are given the exception only for units that are set up during deployment. The OP was giving us a situation where the unit arrived on the board during turn 1, so it has no permission to ignore the restriction keeping it from using a Stratagem to move outside the deployment zone during the same turn one.
Please, provide a rules quotation that backs up your saying that a unit that arrives on turn one can subsequently use a stratagem to move outside the deployment zone the same turn. I've given you the quotations to show why it doesn't.
I don't need to provide a quotation, you've already had it multiple times in this thread - its in the beta tactical reserves rule.
It states (as I have said multiple times now) units that ARRIVE. A unit that has already arrived via deployment or during set up has, incredibly, already ARRIVED so isn't bound by the rule.
I've already stated this in this very thread, you quoted it above. I've yet to see a reasonable argument against this that doesn't take a strange, new meaning for 'arrived' and replaces it with your own.
Also, as I've said multiple times - the facebook post is not a new rule post or a change of existing rules. It clarifies the same rule that has always existed since the beta tac res rules were released for those who seemingly don't understand what 'arrived' means.
As stated in the info graphic the tactical reserves beta rule effects units that have not yet deployed. Units that have already started on the table (ie - arrived) are not affected by the rule.
To answer Raven's question RAW yes you can place units elsewhere on the board as long as they have already arrived on the table.
Actually, not quite true. If you read the graphic, they emphasize that the rule doesn't apply to units that were set up on the board during deployment. They did not say that you could use them on a unit that sets up in its own deployment zone during turn 1 to be moved outside the deplyment zone. So, you wouldn't get to use Dark Matter Crystal on reinforcements initially arriving during Turn 1.
The rule states that units that arrive on turn one must be placed within their deployment zone.
So you if you place them in your deployment zone they have arrived. If you now move the units with dark matter crystal etc it is a legal move to put them elsewhere on the board because they have already arrived.
Again, I don't think it's particularly complex.
Can't respond too often, on holiday
If you are not playing by the Facebook post, then BCB would be correct for any unit that gets removed from the battlefield and comde on again, as they are described as being removed from the battlefield, then come on again, and units coming on mid-turn are desctibed as reinforcements. But, I velieve you are probably trying to play it by the Facebook post.
Unfortunately, the Facebook post also denies what you said. (mhalko1 has helpfully posted the page that GW put out on Facebook about this; it's the last post on page 1 of the thread if you wish to look at the entire thing.)
The Facebook post with the page clarifying the Tactical Reserves rul states "But this rule doesn't apply to any units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment; these units can still use abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers to put the pressure on opponents." You are ignoring the key two words that I underlined. It doesn't excuse everyone who has been set up on the battlefield, but only those who were set up during deployment. So, while you would be correct in saying you can use things like da Jump on units that start the game on the board, this isn't true for any units that arrive during turn on. We are given the exception only for units that are set up during deployment. The OP was giving us a situation where the unit arrived on the board during turn 1, so it has no permission to ignore the restriction keeping it from using a Stratagem to move outside the deployment zone during the same turn one.
Please, provide a rules quotation that backs up your saying that a unit that arrives on turn one can subsequently use a stratagem to move outside the deployment zone the same turn. I've given you the quotations to show why it doesn't.
I don't need to provide a quotation, you've already had it multiple times in this thread - its in the beta tactical reserves rule.
It states (as I have said multiple times now) units that ARRIVE. A unit that has already arrived via deployment or during set up has, incredibly, already ARRIVED so isn't bound by the rule.
I've already stated this in this very thread, you quoted it above. I've yet to see a reasonable argument against this that doesn't take a strange, new meaning for 'arrived' and replaces it with your own.
Also, as I've said multiple times - the facebook post is not a new rule post or a change of existing rules. It clarifies the same rule that has always existed since the beta tac res rules were released for those who seemingly don't understand what 'arrived' means.
As stated in the info graphic the tactical reserves beta rule effects units that have not yet deployed. Units that have already started on the table (ie - arrived) are not affected by the rule.
To answer Raven's question RAW yes you can place units elsewhere on the board as long as they have already arrived on the table.
Actually, not quite true. If you read the graphic, they emphasize that the rule doesn't apply to units that were set up on the board during deployment. They did not say that you could use them on a unit that sets up in its own deployment zone during turn 1 to be moved outside the deplyment zone. So, you wouldn't get to use Dark Matter Crystal on reinforcements initially arriving during Turn 1.
The rule states that units that arrive on turn one must be placed within their deployment zone.
So you if you place them in your deployment zone they have arrived. If you now move the units with dark matter crystal etc it is a legal move to put them elsewhere on the board because they have already arrived.
Again, I don't think it's particularly complex.
Can't respond too often, on holiday
If you are not playing by the Facebook post, then BCB would be correct for any unit that gets removed from the battlefield and comde on again, as they are described as being removed from the battlefield, then come on again, and units coming on mid-turn are desctibed as reinforcements. But, I velieve you are probably trying to play it by the Facebook post.
Unfortunately, the Facebook post also denies what you said. (mhalko1 has helpfully posted the page that GW put out on Facebook about this; it's the last post on page 1 of the thread if you wish to look at the entire thing.)
The Facebook post with the page clarifying the Tactical Reserves rul states "But this rule doesn't apply to any units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment; these units can still use abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers to put the pressure on opponents." You are ignoring the key two words that I underlined. It doesn't excuse everyone who has been set up on the battlefield, but only those who were set up during deployment. So, while you would be correct in saying you can use things like da Jump on units that start the game on the board, this isn't true for any units that arrive during turn on. We are given the exception only for units that are set up during deployment. The OP was giving us a situation where the unit arrived on the board during turn 1, so it has no permission to ignore the restriction keeping it from using a Stratagem to move outside the deployment zone during the same turn one.
Please, provide a rules quotation that backs up your saying that a unit that arrives on turn one can subsequently use a stratagem to move outside the deployment zone the same turn. I've given you the quotations to show why it doesn't.
I don't need to provide a quotation, you've already had it multiple times in this thread - its in the beta tactical reserves rule.
It states (as I have said multiple times now) units that ARRIVE. A unit that has already arrived via deployment or during set up has, incredibly, already ARRIVED so isn't bound by the rule.
I've already stated this in this very thread, you quoted it above. I've yet to see a reasonable argument against this that doesn't take a strange, new meaning for 'arrived' and replaces it with your own.
Also, as I've said multiple times - the facebook post is not a new rule post or a change of existing rules. It clarifies the same rule that has always existed since the beta tac res rules were released for those who seemingly don't understand what 'arrived' means.
Yes, it says "arrive", but then it gives the quotation that I provided. If we go with your interpretation, there would be no need for the quotation I provided, as anything that arrives, whether during deployment or on turn 1) would subsequently be able to use abilities, stratagems, etc. As they are explicitly making a distinction between units that are set up during deployment and units that set up during turn 1 by exempting those who deployed from the restrictions on subsequent abilities, etc., that means that it can't possibly mean that you can use the abilities after arriving in turn 1 to get outside the deployment zone. With them adding what I quoted, they have to be handling units that arrive in turn 1 different from those set up during deployment in relation to using abilities, stratagems, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 21:45:24
As stated in the info graphic the tactical reserves beta rule effects units that have not yet deployed. Units that have already started on the table (ie - arrived) are not affected by the rule.
To answer Raven's question RAW yes you can place units elsewhere on the board as long as they have already arrived on the table.
Actually, not quite true. If you read the graphic, they emphasize that the rule doesn't apply to units that were set up on the board during deployment. They did not say that you could use them on a unit that sets up in its own deployment zone during turn 1 to be moved outside the deplyment zone. So, you wouldn't get to use Dark Matter Crystal on reinforcements initially arriving during Turn 1.
The rule states that units that arrive on turn one must be placed within their deployment zone.
So you if you place them in your deployment zone they have arrived. If you now move the units with dark matter crystal etc it is a legal move to put them elsewhere on the board because they have already arrived.
Again, I don't think it's particularly complex.
Can't respond too often, on holiday
If you are not playing by the Facebook post, then BCB would be correct for any unit that gets removed from the battlefield and comde on again, as they are described as being removed from the battlefield, then come on again, and units coming on mid-turn are desctibed as reinforcements. But, I velieve you are probably trying to play it by the Facebook post.
Unfortunately, the Facebook post also denies what you said. (mhalko1 has helpfully posted the page that GW put out on Facebook about this; it's the last post on page 1 of the thread if you wish to look at the entire thing.)
The Facebook post with the page clarifying the Tactical Reserves rul states "But this rule doesn't apply to any units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment; these units can still use abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers to put the pressure on opponents." You are ignoring the key two words that I underlined. It doesn't excuse everyone who has been set up on the battlefield, but only those who were set up during deployment. So, while you would be correct in saying you can use things like da Jump on units that start the game on the board, this isn't true for any units that arrive during turn on. We are given the exception only for units that are set up during deployment. The OP was giving us a situation where the unit arrived on the board during turn 1, so it has no permission to ignore the restriction keeping it from using a Stratagem to move outside the deployment zone during the same turn one.
Please, provide a rules quotation that backs up your saying that a unit that arrives on turn one can subsequently use a stratagem to move outside the deployment zone the same turn. I've given you the quotations to show why it doesn't.
I don't need to provide a quotation, you've already had it multiple times in this thread - its in the beta tactical reserves rule.
It states (as I have said multiple times now) units that ARRIVE. A unit that has already arrived via deployment or during set up has, incredibly, already ARRIVED so isn't bound by the rule.
I've already stated this in this very thread, you quoted it above. I've yet to see a reasonable argument against this that doesn't take a strange, new meaning for 'arrived' and replaces it with your own.
Also, as I've said multiple times - the facebook post is not a new rule post or a change of existing rules. It clarifies the same rule that has always existed since the beta tac res rules were released for those who seemingly don't understand what 'arrived' means.
Yes, it says "arrive", but then it gives the quotation that I provided. If we go with your interpretation, there would be no need for the quotation I provided, as anything that arrives, whether during deployment or on turn 1) would subsequently be able to use abilities, stratagems, etc. As they are explicitly making a distinction between units that are set up during deployment and units that set up during turn 1 by exempting those who deployed from the restrictions on subsequent abilities, etc., that means that it can't possibly mean that you can use the abilities after arriving in turn 1 to get outside the deployment zone. With them adding what I quoted, they have to be handling units that arrive in turn 1 different from those set up during deployment in relation to using abilities, stratagems, etc.
GW have stated that their Facebook page should not be used as a rules source.
The beta rule states that it affects units that arrive. The quotation you have provided is completely moot because it is a clarification and not a new ruling. I'm sure whoever wrote it did not think that it would be used to define what happens for the edge cases such as this.
The reason the Facebook post was made in the first place was because of a massive argument on here and on Facebook iirc regarding what 'arrived' means. I remember multiple topics getting extremely heated with people stating that GoI, Da Jump etc would not work under the beta ruling turn 1. The Facebook post was to clear that up. Nothing more. You're making things more complicated and thus making mistakes with your idea of the rules.
1. Has the unit arrived or is it arriving?
2. If it has already arrived then it can be moved with a power. If it is arriving with a power or via reinforcements it is subject to the ruling.
I don't understand why you think this is difficult to understand given that the Facebook post is not rule source. I'm also struggling to understand why you think RAW pre Facebook post the beta rule is any different to what I've stated in this thread and months ago?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 21:46:35
I didn't think that somebody would say that a unit arriving on the board during turn 1 and the player wanting to try to get them out of the deployement zone is an "edge case".
Yes, the Facebook post is a clarification. It clarifies that the rule doesn't apply to units that have set up during deployment. It doesn't clarify that units arriving during turn one are free to do what they want later in the turn to get out of the deployment zone; it reserved that for those that are deployed previous to turn one.
I'm sure whoever wrote it thought out what they were saying, given that there would be no need for half of what he said if your interpretation is correct but everything he said would be pertinent for my reading.
You're right that it isn't complicated. Was the unit set up on the board during deployment? Yes, it can use powers and abilities turn 1 to get out of the deployement zone. If it's being brought in turn 1, it can't.
The clarification says that units that were set up during deployment can use abilities, psychic powers, stratagems, etc that was being limited by the beta rule. If you arrive on the board turn 1, those retrictions still apply to you. If you deep strike by whatever method, you don't suddenly get immunity from the limitation of not getting to use a psychic power to take you half way across the board. That's the price you pay for keeping them in reserves until turn one.
But, if you want to insist like BCB that Facebook isn't a rules source, then you need to go with BCB's conclusion that you're not allowed to move anybody out with abilities or stratagems or psychic powers during turn 1 because units are moved off the board, and the rules say that when they combe back on the board turn 1 they are refinforcements. You want to the part of the clarification that you like but want to ignore the rest of what they say in the clarification.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 21:36:44
doctortom wrote: I didn't think that somebody would say that a unit arriving on the board during turn 1 and the player wanting to try to get them out of the deployement zone is an "edge case".
Yes, the Facebook post is a clarification. It clarifies that the rule doesn't apply to units that have set up during deployment. It doesn't clarify that units arriving during turn one are free to do what they want later in the turn to get out of the deployment zone; it reserved that for those that are deployed previous to turn one.
I'm sure whoever wrote it thought out what they were saying, given that there would be no need for half of what he said if your interpretation is correct but everything he said would be pertinent for my reading.
You're right that it isn't complicated. Was the unit set up on the board during deployment? Yes, it can use powers and abilities turn 1 to get out of the deployement zone. If it's being brought in turn 1, it can't.
The clarification says that units that were set up during deployment can use abilities, psychic powers, stratagems, etc that was being limited by the beta rule. If you arrive on the board turn 1, those retrictions still apply to you. If you deep strike by whatever method, you don't suddenly get immunity from the limitation of not getting to use a psychic power to take you half way across the board. That's the price you pay for keeping them in reserves until turn one.
But, if you want to insist like BCB that Facebook isn't a rules source, then you need to go with BCB's conclusion that you're not allowed to move anybody out with abilities or stratagems or psychic powers during turn 1 because units are moved off the board, and the rules say that when they combe back on the board turn 1 they are refinforcements. You want to the part of the clarification that you like but want to ignore the rest of what they say in the clarification.
Show me where the rules say that a unit coming back on to the board are defined as 'reinforcements' and explain clearly why this would mean that the unit is 'arriving' on to the battlefield and hasn't already arrived?
No, I don't need to go with your or BCBs conclusion because they are both wrong.
I don't care about the clarification. It is exactly what you've described - a clarification. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not provide new rules or information, it merely clarifies what many of us already knew. Units on the board can be moved via psychic powers and the like, units not on the board can't drop in outside of their deployment turn 1.
Please don't make assumptions about what I want or don't want. There is no personal interest in what I'm saying, I'm merely trying to help clarify the rules for those of you who continually seem to misunderstand them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 21:50:06
Doctortom and An Actual Englishman, please use spoiler tags or stop hitting quote on huge text blocks over repeated posts, you're making the thread unreadable!
You can use quote tags but you need to edit them down to only quote the relevant section, or maybe a single full post or two, but not post after post after post!
Any questions, just PM me - thanks
And while I typed this, it happened again - this time, quoting the post directly above yours in full.
If there are no intervening posts, you don't need to hit "Quote". Just hit "Reply", rather than copying the full text of the post immediately preceding yours. This is basic forum etiquette - if it isn't clear, please just ask me anything via PM.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/24 23:23:01
What the Facebook page actually says on the matter:
And a quick note on rules questions - we can’t give you official answers. We’re not the Games Designers, they’re locked up in the studio. We might be able to give you some general advice or point you in the right direction but better to try and work it out with your gaming buddies.
The Facebook guy can't give official answers, but they never say that the Game Designers can't use the Facebook page to post clarifications via infographics, etc.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
RiTides - understood, on phone so editing difficult.
Ghaz - clarifications aren't rules sources and don't change the rules themselves. They merely give you ideas on how they operate, this case being a perfect example.
RiTides wrote: If there are no intervening posts, you don't need to hit "Quote". Just hit "Reply", rather than copying the full text of the post immediately preceding yours. This is basic forum etiquette - if it isn't clear, please just ask me anything via PM.
Off Topic: I actually prefer the quotes because it prevents (or at least deters) edit shenanigans.
@Ghaz: Exactly my point. "we can’t give you official answers. We’re not the Games Designers". If the FB page incorrectly said "Ultramarines have BS1+", it wouldn't be rules, this is no different to them posting an incorrect image about how a beta rule works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/25 10:18:01
RiTides wrote: If there are no intervening posts, you don't need to hit "Quote". Just hit "Reply", rather than copying the full text of the post immediately preceding yours. This is basic forum etiquette - if it isn't clear, please just ask me anything via PM.
Off Topic: I actually prefer the quotes because it prevents (or at least deters) edit shenanigans.
@Ghaz: Exactly my point. "we can’t give you official answers. We’re not the Games Designers". If the FB page incorrectly said "Ultramarines have BS1+", it wouldn't be rules, this is no different to them posting an incorrect image about how a beta rule works.
We heard you the other times you said this. ;-)
I kid, but let’s not go down the rabbit hole again on this one yet again. We know all the regulars‘ viewpoints by now, and repeatedly airing them will in no way align everyone.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
RiTides wrote: If there are no intervening posts, you don't need to hit "Quote". Just hit "Reply", rather than copying the full text of the post immediately preceding yours. This is basic forum etiquette - if it isn't clear, please just ask me anything via PM.
Off Topic: I actually prefer the quotes because it prevents (or at least deters) edit shenanigans.
@Ghaz: Exactly my point. "we can’t give you official answers. We’re not the Games Designers". If the FB page incorrectly said "Ultramarines have BS1+", it wouldn't be rules, this is no different to them posting an incorrect image about how a beta rule works.
THEY didn't give the rules answer
They conveyed the rules answer given to the:
It's not a tricky distinction to make, its one you are entirely aware of, and your continued obtuseness in deliberately lying about both what they actually said, and what that means, demeans you.
