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as title states I'm getting started with 8th edition what do i need besides my imperial guard codex and dark angels codex since those are my two armies this isnt counting models pure rule wise i see all these indexes and other books so im not sure what is needed.

Starwarsninja12 wrote:
as title states I'm getting started with 8th edition what do i need besides my imperial guard codex and dark angels codex since those are my two armies this isnt counting models pure rule wise i see all these indexes and other books so im not sure what is needed.

You don't need to worry about the Indexes. The Codexes are designed to replace them, and also give you tons of extra rules that don't appear in the Index. I should note there are a handful of legacy units that only appear in the Index and not the Codex, but you likely don't need to worry about that. It's basically units that are no longer in production, or never had an official model.

You should get the Core Rule Book really. In addition to the free rules primer stuff, you also get some other important stuff in it. The army building stuff is especially critical, but there's also terrain rules and 12 Matched play missions.

Technically you need Chapter Approved, because it changed a bunch of point costs. However I don't own it, you can find the point changes elsewhere if you look!

Asside from that, you just need the free FAQs and errata from here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

There are quite a few separate documents that are relevant. Rule Book FAQ, designer's commentary, Big FAQ, and the codex FAQs. But at least it's free!

The index is only needed for legacy models that don't appear in the codex. You only really need your codex and models to get started. If you have models with wargear options they lost in the codex you'll need the index. You don't need the BRB to start out, the core rules are a free download in PDF form and if you talk to people in your local group they can run you through anything you need to know that's not in there over a game or two. If you plan on jumping into more serious games or tournaments you'll need the full rulebook but if you're just starting casual you can hold off on getting it for a while.

I'd get Chapter Approved, if I were you.

There's more to it than merely changing points costs, IMO.

Starwarsninja12 wrote:
as title states I'm getting started with 8th edition what do i need besides my imperial guard codex and dark angels codex since those are my two armies this isnt counting models pure rule wise i see all these indexes and other books so im not sure what is needed.

Basically, the indexes were released right at the start of the edition all at once, because 8th changed the core rules so much that unit statlines from 7th would not be compatible (there have been a few other editions where this was not the case, for example you could use a sixth or even fifth edition book in 7th edition 40k)

They were basically "all the rules and none of the flavor" - special fluffy addons like chapter tactics, relics, warlord traits and stratagems were the reasons GW gave for people to buy the codexes, besides usually better balance because the indexes tended to be a bit over-cautious in their attempts to avoid creating overpowered things. Special rules were pretty over-costly in general in the indexes.

At the moment, there are only three real big factions still in the index books (Genestealer Cultists, Orks, and Sisters of Battle) and the only other things that still are in index are the "oddball" units from mini-factions or whatever. Stuff like Cypher and the Fallen, the new Ynnari eldar, inquisition etc.

If you're just getting started in the game, I advise you download the core rules PDF rather than buying the main rulebook, as it contains everything you need for a basic game, and then play a few games with simplified objectives that you come up with an opponent (say, four objectives that give you a point each turn you hold them, game lasts for five turns. Something like that.)

The main rulebook that costs money really only has three sections that are super vital for playing games that the free pdf doesnt have: the list building info on Detachments, the Terrain rules, and the Mission rules. The terrain rules from the PDF are super simplified (if you're in terrain, you're in cover! You and your opponent figure out what constitutes "in terrain") but they're perfectly serviceable if you and your opponent are both reasonable people and just trying to learn. Don't buy that book until you're properly stuck back in and you like the edition. Just get your two codexes, and you're off to the races.

EDIT: Also, I forgot Chapter Approved. This is one part game expansion, one part balance/errata book that GW put out almost a year ago now. It's not super duper vital, IMO, but it does include some pretty solid missions and the most up to date rules for point costs.

Maybe wait to get the 2018 version of Chapter Approved or at least see what the difference between them is.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maybe wait to get the 2018 version of Chapter Approved or at least see what the difference between them is.

Agree. It will not take much more time for it.

Alex_85 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maybe wait to get the 2018 version of Chapter Approved or at least see what the difference between them is.

Agree. It will not take much more time for it.

Although the 2017 one is selling very cheaply on the secondary market now.

Most people are perfectly fine with you playing without CA, as long as you don't tailor specifically to not using CA.

It comes down to who you're playing against. If you're likely to play at an FLGS, stop on down sometime they're playing and see what they say. I wouldn't be surprised if most players didn't own CA at all.

Codex + base rules are necessary (although base rules could be the free PDF, I do suggest the rulebook). Other items might be fun but aren't strictly needed.

Your meta (local players) are better people to ask than us, though. And not just because we're wretched, villenous scum (but this is not a hive).

Pick your level of involvement:

Rules Pamphlet + Index: Just passing through, play once a fortnight, had previous experience with prior editions

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex: Casual, occasional play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved: Up-to-date for regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved + FAQs + Designer Commentary: Expecting to play in tournaments

 Stormonu wrote:
Pick your level of involvement:

Rules Pamphlet + Index: Just passing through, play once a fortnight, had previous experience with prior editions

Rules Pamphlet + Army Codex: Casual, occasional play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex: Casual, regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved: Up-to-date for regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved + FAQs + Designer Commentary: Expecting to play in tournaments

FTFY

It’s messy out there watch your step!

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'd get Chapter Approved, if I were you.

There's more to it than merely changing points costs, IMO.

Like half decent scenarios. Rulebook ones are so laughably bad playing last man standing differs not

 IronBrand wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Pick your level of involvement:

Rules Pamphlet + Index: Just passing through, play once a fortnight, had previous experience with prior editions

Rules Pamphlet + Army Codex: Casual, occasional play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex: Casual, regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved: Up-to-date for regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved + FAQs + Designer Commentary: Expecting to play in tournaments

FTFY

While I like 8th, it makes me laugh sometimes that people say you need less books than 7th. If your playing 100 percent official, you need at least 5 to 6 sources of rules and or corrections.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Pick your level of involvement:

Rules Pamphlet + Index: Just passing through, play once a fortnight, had previous experience with prior editions

Rules Pamphlet + Army Codex: Casual, occasional play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex: Casual, regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved: Up-to-date for regular play

Base Rule Book (BRB) + Army Codex + Chapter Approved + FAQs + Designer Commentary: Expecting to play in tournaments

FTFY

While I like 8th, it makes me laugh sometimes that people say you need less books than 7th. If your playing 100 percent official, you need at least 5 to 6 sources of rules and or corrections.

I don't think people say that any more... It was true with Index plus core book.

Although actually, most of my games are against friends and for those purposes all I really need is Battlescribe. I bring my codex, but last game I didn't open it once.

Step one to starting 8th edition.
Don't.
Step two.
Buy the Age of Darkness rule book and play 30k.

Are there more detailed vehicle rules in the BRB over the Battle primer? I'm thinking vehicle collisions with each other and with troops.
I don't see anything on this in the primer and its going to happen virtually every time I play.

No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

If a vehicle has WS0 (can't think of any myself but there might be some?) it can't hit in close combat at all.

But yeah, for the most part vehicles fight in close combat just like any other unit. In earlier editions they had a fairly convoluted Tank Shock/Ram set of rules that very rarely accomplished anything, but people complain about it in 8th because the fact that they very rarely accomplish anything is easily understood instead of "okay, I want to ram you. I subtract 10 from my front armor, add 1 for being a "large" vehicle, subtract 1 for being "tracked", multiply by the current moon phase, that's...okay...gibbous, according to google, take the inverse of the hypotenuse of a right triangle from the main point of my hull, so let's see I'm using a rhino so that's here....alright, that's a single S6 hit and you're front armor 13, so I'll need to roll this die and get a...seven."

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

Weapon Skill 0 does not make sense with the 8e rules.

Theoretically you could have 0+ (I'm certain no examples exist though). That would mean you hit on a 0+, but a 1 is always a miss anyway. It does mean you could have up to -2 on the roll and still only miss on a 1!

If a model can't attack at all, it will have a WS of -

the_scotsman wrote:

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

If a vehicle has WS0 (can't think of any myself but there might be some?) it can't hit in close combat at all.

But yeah, for the most part vehicles fight in close combat just like any other unit. In earlier editions they had a fairly convoluted Tank Shock/Ram set of rules that very rarely accomplished anything, but people complain about it in 8th because the fact that they very rarely accomplish anything is easily understood instead of "okay, I want to ram you. I subtract 10 from my front armor, add 1 for being a "large" vehicle, subtract 1 for being "tracked", multiply by the current moon phase, that's...okay...gibbous, according to google, take the inverse of the hypotenuse of a right triangle from the main point of my hull, so let's see I'm using a rhino so that's here....alright, that's a single S6 hit and you're front armor 13, so I'll need to roll this die and get a...seven."

Oh please. It was not hard. At least if you have graduated from elementary school. Bit trickier if your native language isn't english as then you have to wait long enough to learn basic english(or have somebody explain it in native language)

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

Weapon Skill 0 does not make sense with the 8e rules.

Theoretically you could have 0+ (I'm certain no examples exist though). That would mean you hit on a 0+, but a 1 is always a miss anyway. It does mean you could have up to -2 on the roll and still only miss on a 1!

If a model can't attack at all, it will have a WS of -

I've figured it out now. I was thinking land raider or rhino, as I knew they had a * in their profile - of course that's for BS which depends on remaining wounds. The WS is indeed 6+.

So a vehicle 'ram' on infantry is counted as close combat. And seems likely to end badly for the tank.

RobS wrote:

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

Weapon Skill 0 does not make sense with the 8e rules.

Theoretically you could have 0+ (I'm certain no examples exist though). That would mean you hit on a 0+, but a 1 is always a miss anyway. It does mean you could have up to -2 on the roll and still only miss on a 1!

If a model can't attack at all, it will have a WS of -

I've figured it out now. I was thinking land raider or rhino, as I knew they had a * in their profile - of course that's for BS which depends on remaining wounds. The WS is indeed 6+.

So a vehicle 'ram' on infantry is counted as close combat. And seems likely to end badly for the tank.

Generally speaking yes, vehicles are very poor in melee. There are some big exceptions though!

Watch out for Imperial Guard with their Crush Them! stratagem, which gives a vehicle a 2+ WS temporarily.

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

Weapon Skill 0 does not make sense with the 8e rules.

Theoretically you could have 0+ (I'm certain no examples exist though). That would mean you hit on a 0+, but a 1 is always a miss anyway. It does mean you could have up to -2 on the roll and still only miss on a 1!

If a model can't attack at all, it will have a WS of -

I've figured it out now. I was thinking land raider or rhino, as I knew they had a * in their profile - of course that's for BS which depends on remaining wounds. The WS is indeed 6+.

So a vehicle 'ram' on infantry is counted as close combat. And seems likely to end badly for the tank.

Generally speaking yes, vehicles are very poor in melee. There are some big exceptions though!

Watch out for Imperial Guard with their Crush Them! stratagem, which gives a vehicle a 2+ WS temporarily.

Sounds fun!

I'm not going to be playing with stratagems for a while - just playing fun little games with my son. And he's definitely going to end up with some tanks (because tanks are cool) and he's going to want to drive them into stuff a lot (also cool).

We played a little game where I made a guess at how a tank collision with a troop would work - and I wasn't far off. I just didn't guess it'd count as close combat so the tank couldn't just drive off afterwards.
Weird one, that.

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

 Stux wrote:

RobS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. Collision is going to be done by vehicle charging and generally striking with 3 or so bad attacks that hit on 6+. 2 vehicles bumping each other won't wreck each other before game ends unless one of them is designated fighting vehicle(basically dreadnoughts etc but orks have death rolla upgrade which at least gives some attacks that hit well and can penetrate armour enough to make a dent.

Does this apply to vehicles with WS 0?

Weapon Skill 0 does not make sense with the 8e rules.

Theoretically you could have 0+ (I'm certain no examples exist though). That would mean you hit on a 0+, but a 1 is always a miss anyway. It does mean you could have up to -2 on the roll and still only miss on a 1!

If a model can't attack at all, it will have a WS of -

I've figured it out now. I was thinking land raider or rhino, as I knew they had a * in their profile - of course that's for BS which depends on remaining wounds. The WS is indeed 6+.

So a vehicle 'ram' on infantry is counted as close combat. And seems likely to end badly for the tank.

Generally speaking yes, vehicles are very poor in melee. There are some big exceptions though!

Watch out for Imperial Guard with their Crush Them! stratagem, which gives a vehicle a 2+ WS temporarily.

If a vehicle ends up in CC and doesn't want to be (for the reasons above), can't it just 'fall back' to escape?

Reading the battle primer suggests this is just an ordinary move except you can't advance or shoot, but it would probably get you out of charge range.

Assuming there's no model in way(can't move over enemy unless your vehicle has special rule) yes he can though no shooting or charging. And likely will NOT get you out of charge range unless you can move like 18"+

tneva82 wrote:
Assuming there's no model in way(can't move over enemy unless your vehicle has special rule) yes he can though no shooting or charging. And likely will NOT get you out of charge range unless you can move like 18"+

This.

Not being able to shoot for most vehicles is a VERY big deal.

In a vacuum where you have a unit A that wants to be in melee and another unit B that doesn't, for most unit Bs it will be next to impossible to get away from unit A. You need a very high movement to succeed. This is because you fall back your movement, but then unit A can move its own movement and then charge as well!

This is why locking a unit in melee is very strong.

That said, in real games it's not that simple. What happens more often is that unit B falls back, then unit C can freely shoot into unit A.

Also generally units that lock you into combat are fast ones so they can reach combat in the first place. So you def need backup to bail vehicle out

tneva82 wrote:
Also generally units that lock you into combat are fast ones so they can reach combat in the first place. So you def need backup to bail vehicle out

Ah, darn yeah. I was thinking 2e charge distances for a minute there!

Mind you, I can think of lots of tactical games that could happen around these rules.