Should vehicle damage go the way of the dodo?

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**NurglesR0T**

Flashlight to the eyes? Those things topple right over.

Since 8th launched I'm still yet to see any small arms kill a land raider or something comparatively sized. A severely wounded vehicle with one wound remaining and happens to get taken out with a lucky lasgun is not the same

**tneva82**

It's still illogical and shouldn't happen and has huge effect to the game.

Flashlight to eye does not kill something as big and armoured as wraithknight. Blind for a second maybe but kill? Yeah right.

**Stux**

tneva82 wrote:
Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

Well i have killed wraithkn:ght with consciipt overwatch which i# silly and illogical breaking suspension of disbelief big time

Use your imagination people!

First of all, 40k is an heroic game. Not a simulation. These possibilities create awesome stories.

Second, it's entirely possible that a fuel line, ammunition store, or something like that had become exposed due to the damage the vehicle suffered earlier. One, albeit a lucky one, shot from a small arm could very well ignite causing a chain reaction that tears the vehicle apart.

**Wyzilla**

Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

Well i have killed wraithkn:ght with consciipt overwatch which i# silly and illogical breaking suspension of disbelief big time

Use your imagination people!

First of all, 40k is an heroic game. Not a simulation. These possibilities create awesome stories.

Second, it's entirely possible that a fuel line, ammunition store, or something like that had become exposed due to the damage the vehicle suffered earlier. One, albeit a lucky one, shot from a small arm could very well ignite causing a chain reaction that tears the vehicle apart.

Except Eldar vehicles don't really have those, and Wraithbone is stronger than Adamantium. And secondly, no. 40k is a skirmish game involving a couple infantry units and a tank or two that has ballooned out beyond its means and since become a crippled system incapable of supporting the scale that GW pushes upon it. Especially when the 40k meta isn't "heroic", unless you consider it heroic for incredibly overpowered things to stomp on fodder repeatedly with little chance of defeat to be "heroic".

**Stux**

Wyzilla wrote:
Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Elbows wrote:
No, it doesn't happen often - hardly ever. But if it is mathematically possible (after all it only takes what 1500 lasgun shots to kill a Land Raider?) the game is garbage. Personally people can continue to move to Bolt Action. If you're that angsty about game rules...good riddance.

Well i have killed wraithkn:ght with consciipt overwatch which i# silly and illogical breaking suspension of disbelief big time

Use your imagination people!

First of all, 40k is an heroic game. Not a simulation. These possibilities create awesome stories.

Second, it's entirely possible that a fuel line, ammunition store, or something like that had become exposed due to the damage the vehicle suffered earlier. One, albeit a lucky one, shot from a small arm could very well ignite causing a chain reaction that tears the vehicle apart.

Except Eldar vehicles don't really have those, and Wraithbone is stronger than Adamantium. And secondly, no. 40k is a skirmish game involving a couple infantry units and a tank or two that has ballooned out beyond its means and since become a crippled system incapable of supporting the scale that GW pushes upon it. Especially when the 40k meta isn't "heroic", unless you consider it heroic for incredibly overpowered things to stomp on fodder repeatedly with little chance of defeat to be "heroic".

I'm saying it's a feature, not a bug, that a normal guy has a CHANCE of taking down a big thing. Because it lends a cinematic edge to those rolls. So many people have stories about the time their Company Commander downed Abaddon against all odds, game memories that last forever. This is just like that.

Both from a hyper-real narrative perspective, and from a game balance perspective, it's a really good thing that this sort of thing is possible.

**NurglesR0T**

tneva82 wrote:
It's still illogical and shouldn't happen and has huge effect to the game.

Flashlight to eye does not kill something as big and armoured as wraithknight. Blind for a second maybe but kill? Yeah right.

Arguing about logic and illogical events in the 40k setting is a moot point isn't it?

**Stux**

NurglesR0T wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
It's still illogical and shouldn't happen and has huge effect to the game.

Flashlight to eye does not kill something as big and armoured as wraithknight. Blind for a second maybe but kill? Yeah right.

Arguing about logic and illogical events in the 40k setting is a moot point isn't it?

Right? I see it like going to see an action movie and complaining about the explosions being unrealistic.

**Tyel**

If anything for the big models I'd make it worse by being more graduated. So akin to AoS there would be 5-6 bands rather than 3. A model with a few wounds left should be weakened - an infantry squad would be mostly dead.

Although some rebalancing is necessary as certain units start bad and are worthless by band two.

**Stux**

Tyel wrote:
If anything for the big models I'd make it worse by being more graduated. So akin to AoS there would be 5-6 bands rather than 3. A model with a few wounds left should be weakened - an infantry squad would be mostly dead.

Although some rebalancing is necessary as certain units start bad and are worthless by band two.

Yes, as said above there are some Tyranid beasties that degrade S, A, and WS. Which is just insane!

I feel like either just one stat should degrade, or 2 degrade and 1 goes up. You could have WS and S go down, but A go up for instance, to represent the monster becoming frenzied as it gets hurt.

**Crispy78**

Stux wrote:

I feel like either just one stat should degrade, or 2 degrade and 1 goes up. You could have WS and S go down, but A go up for instance, to represent the monster becoming frenzied as it gets hurt.

You mean like the Khorne Lord Of Skulls does?

**Stux**

Crispy78 wrote:
Stux wrote:

I feel like either just one stat should degrade, or 2 degrade and 1 goes up. You could have WS and S go down, but A go up for instance, to represent the monster becoming frenzied as it gets hurt.

You mean like the Khorne Lord Of Skulls does?

Yeah! Basically. More of that please

**ServiceGames**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
ServiceGames wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
This isn't that big of an issue as all vehicles etc. are weakened as they are damaged, but I do see the point of it in 8th. Before when the game was more complicated, it was fine as its more realistic, but there isn't really a need for realism in 8th as they got rid of a lot of realist rules. My main gripe is just the annoyance of having to remember how many wounds its taken and corresponding to the codex. I'd prefer it just be simplify and get rid of the damage as it isn't really going to change the dynamic of the game as everyone will be rid of the rule. Plus its not that realistic, we don't have infantry damage, they can for instance lose an arm and become half as effective. Plus the more damage they take the less effective they are and the longer the game needs to be. I think 8th was the perfect edition to just get rid of the idea. How does everyone else fell about vehicle etc. damage?
Warhammer 40K Wound Trackers

SG
That's not the point I was making.

My main gripe is just the annoyance of having to remember how many wounds its taken and corresponding to the codex.

It really does seem to be the point you were making

SG

**Sherrypie**

Stux wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
Stux wrote:

I feel like either just one stat should degrade, or 2 degrade and 1 goes up. You could have WS and S go down, but A go up for instance, to represent the monster becoming frenzied as it gets hurt.

You mean like the Khorne Lord Of Skulls does?

Yeah! Basically. More of that please

There's some of that in the Forge World indexes. Many Chaos Hellforged vehicles, for an example, tend to get higher WS the worse for wear they are, which synergizes nicely with their often -3 AP attacks and the ability to regain wounds by eating souls.

**Rocmistro**

To answer the OP:

No.

It's one of the better changes of 8th edition.

**Xenomancers**

Galef wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
Or maybe even just a 100%/50% scale for smaller vehicles?

I actually like this idea. Right now anything with 10+ wounds has a 3 level degrading scale, but maybe things with 10-15 wounds should only have 2 levels

-

Yeah - that is a great idea.

**HoundsofDemos**

The anything can hurt anything on a six is one of many things that is skewing the game towards super big stompy thing/smash captains and the rest being numerous chaff. Against most vehicles a marine has the same chance as hurting it as a guardsman or a grot. That's a problem and something that doesn't make sense. Finally the nonsense on o, it's a one in a million shot. I could spend days firing a M4 at an Abrams and guess what, it will not do any meaningful damage because certain things simply can't damage other things. I can punch a concrete wall all day and the only thing I'm going to get for my trouble is a broken hand.

**Stux**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The anything can hurt anything on a six is one of many things that is skewing the game towards super big stompy thing/smash captains and the rest being numerous chaff. Against most vehicles a marine has the same chance as hurting it as a guardsman or a grot. That's a problem and something that doesn't make sense. Finally the nonsense on o, it's a one in a million shot. I could spend days firing a M4 at an Abrams and guess what, it will not do any meaningful damage because certain things simply can't damage other things. I can punch a concrete wall all day and the only thing I'm going to get for my trouble is a broken hand.

Yeah, but this isn't a simulation. It's a universe where swords are a viable option on a pitched battlefield against people armed with automatic weapons. It's cinematic.

**Slayer-Fan123**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The anything can hurt anything on a six is one of many things that is skewing the game towards super big stompy thing/smash captains and the rest being numerous chaff. Against most vehicles a marine has the same chance as hurting it as a guardsman or a grot. That's a problem and something that doesn't make sense. Finally the nonsense on o, it's a one in a million shot. I could spend days firing a M4 at an Abrams and guess what, it will not do any meaningful damage because certain things simply can't damage other things. I can punch a concrete wall all day and the only thing I'm going to get for my trouble is a broken hand.

Unless that concrete was partly cracked of course.

**Blastaar**

A game can have have elements of simulation while remaining cinematic. The cinematic aspect has been heavily diluted in 8th, IMO.

**Vaktathi**

The current system could use some tweaking, and there are a lot of execution issues with specific things (the resiliency gap between most MBT's and tin-can transports is startlingly small), but it's probably the best vehicle system we have ever had.

The degredation is a good mechanic, it represents damage without having to be specific about it (like losing individual weapons or being stunned in previous editions) and rewards doing something to these things even if they don't die outright.

**greatbigtree**

I agree that degradation suits 40k well.

I remember having dice piled on my tanks to remember which effects it was suffering from.

I've got a 2 and a 4 and a 5... So I can't move this turn... I can't move ever... and which weapon was destroyed again?

Instead, piece of paper, how many wounds it has left. Done. To me, this rule is as close to elegant as GW gets.

**IronBrand**

Wyzilla wrote:
Only as far as I'd be willing to pay for, although it can happen using different units which would be less expensive to buy up. But just using poxwalkers in general would probably demand I buy some cheap zombie miniatures or just coins to represent the extra bodies if I ever make a Death Guard army. It's crazy how bloated poxwalker squads can become when they get to devour a bunch of guardsmen after advancing through cover (I had one squad pass the 50 mark as it reached one end of a gunline and kept munching). But any infantry that doesn't have excessively superhuman strength shouldn't be able to scratch a Leman Russ in melee. S5 at least.

Complaining about a 50+ squad of poxwalkers taking anything down is never a good argument. Yes they can go above starting strength but they need reserve points to do so. No one is going to keep 180+ reserve points just in case their 20 man squad of poxwalkers happens to take out 30+ enemy infantry models while also not losing any models itself. This of course assumes match play rules. But if you're playing narrative or open play who cares what a blob of 50+ poxwalkers can do? That's kind of the whole point of narrative and open play games.

**Spoletta**

IronBrand wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Only as far as I'd be willing to pay for, although it can happen using different units which would be less expensive to buy up. But just using poxwalkers in general would probably demand I buy some cheap zombie miniatures or just coins to represent the extra bodies if I ever make a Death Guard army. It's crazy how bloated poxwalker squads can become when they get to devour a bunch of guardsmen after advancing through cover (I had one squad pass the 50 mark as it reached one end of a gunline and kept munching). But any infantry that doesn't have excessively superhuman strength shouldn't be able to scratch a Leman Russ in melee. S5 at least.
Complaining about a 50+ squad of poxwalkers taking anything down is never a good argument. Yes they can go above starting strength but they need reserve points to do so. No one is going to keep 180+ reserve points just in case their 20 man squad of poxwalkers happens to take out 30+ enemy infantry models while also not losing any models itself. This of course assumes match play rules. But if you're playing narrative or open play who cares what a blob of 50+ poxwalkers can do? That's kind of the whole point of narrative and open play games.

Oh yeah, because it is totally unheard of that tanks were taken out by soldiers managing to climb on the tank.

**Wyzilla**

IronBrand wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Only as far as I'd be willing to pay for, although it can happen using different units which would be less expensive to buy up. But just using poxwalkers in general would probably demand I buy some cheap zombie miniatures or just coins to represent the extra bodies if I ever make a Death Guard army. It's crazy how bloated poxwalker squads can become when they get to devour a bunch of guardsmen after advancing through cover (I had one squad pass the 50 mark as it reached one end of a gunline and kept munching). But any infantry that doesn't have excessively superhuman strength shouldn't be able to scratch a Leman Russ in melee. S5 at least.
Complaining about a 50+ squad of poxwalkers taking anything down is never a good argument. Yes they can go above starting strength but they need reserve points to do so. No one is going to keep 180+ reserve points just in case their 20 man squad of poxwalkers happens to take out 30+ enemy infantry models while also not losing any models itself. This of course assumes match play rules. But if you're playing narrative or open play who cares what a blob of 50+ poxwalkers can do? That's kind of the whole point of narrative and open play games.

Because the idea that a bunch of infantry can kill a hab-sized mech by punching it is absurd and flatly shouldn't be possible regardless of the amount of S3 attacks you throw at one. At most somebody with a heavy stubber might "damage" a tank like a Leman Russ or Land Raider by detracking it when firing at it, but beyond that it's equally absurd for such weapons to damage a vehicle. Imbalance and stupidity on any level of play is unacceptable, and GW having to split up the rules is just indicative of their inability to properly balance anything anyway. And if anything they should bring back rules allowing vehicles or mechs to just crush light infantry in their way.

**greatbigtree**

Frag grenade in an exhaust port? Frag grenade in a track? Frag grenade in a cannon? Frag grenade in a vision port? Crowbar pries open a hatch, and drop a frag grenade inside? Open a fuel port and drop a frag grenade inside? Wedge a frag grenade between a turret and the hull?

Attacks don’t necessarily represent a soldier punching armour. Sometimes it represents non-morons figuring out a way to damage a vehicle at close range using materials at hand. Overcharge a plasma pistol and use it like a melta bomb.

Free your mind!

**Slayer-Fan123**

greatbigtree wrote:
Frag grenade in an exhaust port? Frag grenade in a track? Frag grenade in a cannon? Frag grenade in a vision port? Crowbar pries open a hatch, and drop a frag grenade inside? Open a fuel port and drop a frag grenade inside? Wedge a frag grenade between a turret and the hull?

Attacks don’t necessarily represent a soldier punching armour. Sometimes it represents non-morons figuring out a way to damage a vehicle at close range using materials at hand. Overcharge a plasma pistol and use it like a melta bomb.

Free your mind!

People forget that, theoretically, a squad of even just Tactical Marines had a mathematical chance to hit a AV10 vehicle rear and actually kill it without even needing grenades, thanks to how terrible vehicle rules have been overall.

**Scott-S6**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Frag grenade in an exhaust port? Frag grenade in a track? Frag grenade in a cannon? Frag grenade in a vision port? Crowbar pries open a hatch, and drop a frag grenade inside? Open a fuel port and drop a frag grenade inside? Wedge a frag grenade between a turret and the hull?

Attacks don’t necessarily represent a soldier punching armour. Sometimes it represents non-morons figuring out a way to damage a vehicle at close range using materials at hand. Overcharge a plasma pistol and use it like a melta bomb.

Free your mind!

People forget that, theoretically, a squad of even just Tactical Marines had a mathematical chance to hit a AV10 vehicle rear and actually kill it without even needing grenades, thanks to how terrible vehicle rules have been overall.

It wasn't even that difficult. Ten models with bolters rapid firing had a reasonable chance of killing a vehicle from behind in some editions but ten lasguns had zero chance because that makes sense.

**greatbigtree**

Why do Marines hammering on the back of a tank “make sense” but Guardsmen don’t?

Sluggas are large caliber solid shot weapons. Why does that make sense? Tyranid devourers fire Emperor knows what... bees? They could damage AV 10.

This is very specifically a “lasgun” issue. Guardsmen went from being virtual wound makers to now being worth something on the battlefield. They still don’t do much.

**Des702**

honestly I think it just comes down to the fact the guardsmen have been the whipping boys of all the other races for so long that people get upset when they can actually do something. You know when you think about it, it takes 72 guards men at long range unbuffed to do a single wound to a landraider. Even the humble Rhino requires 36 guardsmen shooting at it. Sure button in double tap range it takes only 18 guards man to take a single wound off a Land Raider. But that's still over a hundred points of dedicated shooting for one wound. Hardly the apocalypse.

on topic by very much prefer this vehicle damage system then the old one. I think it's important to have it because as you kill members of a squad there power diminishes and this is probably one of the best ways to represent that on a single model.

**NurglesR0T**

Des702 wrote:
honestly I think it just comes down to the fact the guardsmen have been the whipping boys of all the other races for so long that people get upset when they can actually do something. You know when you think about it, it takes 72 guards men at long range unbuffed to do a single wound to a landraider. Even the humble Rhino requires 36 guardsmen shooting at it. Sure button in double tap range it takes only 18 guards man to take a single wound off a Land Raider. But that's still over a hundred points of dedicated shooting for one wound. Hardly the apocalypse.

Guardsmen are not what makes IG top tier.. they are just the cheap bodies for CP (which in itself is a huge bonus)

I think it's great IG have a decent codex. They've been mid tier for several editions now, but don't pretend they don't have an amazing codex this time around.