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 RobS wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
I thought the lore was that the World Eaters legion splintered into warbands after Skalathrax anyway...

That's always been my understanding. If you transfer that to the rules you could argue that there is no World Eaters Legion any more so no-one can use Butchers Nails or take Berserkers as troops.

Which seems totally daft. I think it's fair to class any Berserker-based, Khorne-worshipping bunch of CSMs as 'World Eaters' in the eyes of the rules.

This is all assuming that a World Eaters codex doesn't appear and add more to this.

You don't. You use the current-edition Codex which allows you to take World Eaters as a legion, and Berzerkers as troops, and Kharn, and you stop over-thinking it.

Realistically, unless you're collecting a 50,000 point army there's no difference between a legion and a fragment of a legion anyway, right?

Niiru wrote:

 RobS wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
I thought the lore was that the World Eaters legion splintered into warbands after Skalathrax anyway...

That's always been my understanding. If you transfer that to the rules you could argue that there is no World Eaters Legion any more so no-one can use Butchers Nails or take Berserkers as troops.

Which seems totally daft. I think it's fair to class any Berserker-based, Khorne-worshipping bunch of CSMs as 'World Eaters' in the eyes of the rules.

This is all assuming that a World Eaters codex doesn't appear and add more to this.

I mean, there may not be an 'original' world eaters legion any more, but there are warbands who devote themselves to khorne and devote themselves to melee-based carnage, perhaps in homage to the original world eaters or because they're splintered off from the original. So it's perfectly "in character" for them to have berzerker troops, as that is what they specialise in.

And why can't they have butchers nails too, as that isn't some secret thing for world-eaters only, it's a brain implant that would be accessible by pretty much anyone. I mean I dunno why they don't let Ogryn have them (or maybe they do).

I think that's pretty fluffy and doesn't give a huge OT advantage. Just fun.

My take on it is that my Warlord is an original HH World Eater but his guys are new recruits, and he's Butcher's Nailed them up. Because that's what your typical caring sharing Khorne warlord would do.


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Crispy78 wrote:

 RobS wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
I thought the lore was that the World Eaters legion splintered into warbands after Skalathrax anyway...

That's always been my understanding. If you transfer that to the rules you could argue that there is no World Eaters Legion any more so no-one can use Butchers Nails or take Berserkers as troops.

Which seems totally daft. I think it's fair to class any Berserker-based, Khorne-worshipping bunch of CSMs as 'World Eaters' in the eyes of the rules.

This is all assuming that a World Eaters codex doesn't appear and add more to this.

You don't. You use the current-edition Codex which allows you to take World Eaters as a legion, and Berzerkers as troops, and Kharn, and you stop over-thinking it.

Realistically, unless you're collecting a 50,000 point army there's no difference between a legion and a fragment of a legion anyway, right?

For real. I tend to overthink things a lot. Particularly in the periods while I have the bits of plastic in my grubby hands but have yet to cut them up and stick them together. Like now.

Most 40k scale games are fragments of armies anyway, aren't they?

12-15 berzerkers in one unit is probably overkill to be honest and won't fit in a rhino either. Might be better to split them. If you're looking at a total of 22-25 it would be fluffier and cooler to go with 3x8 (khorne sacred number)
Equip all your berzerkers with chainsword and axes but give the champs power fists. The champs alone will break most stuff he comes up against with 8 powerfist attacks.

Can someone please point out to me where in the current codex (8th) world eaters can take berserkers as troops? (not sarcastic would genuinely like to know as I plan on making a detachment of world eaters) as I understand it they're just an elite choice, thanks

Abaddon303 wrote:
12-15 berzerkers in one unit is probably overkill to be honest and won't fit in a rhino either. Might be better to split them. If you're looking at a total of 22-25 it would be fluffier and cooler to go with 3x8 (khorne sacred number)
Equip all your berzerkers with chainsword and axes but give the champs power fists. The champs alone will break most stuff he comes up against with 8 powerfist attacks.

Well I don't have a Rhino yet and I've only got 12 models which will become berserkers...maybe a couple more if I get creative. But yes, I'm aiming for 2 x 8 at first.
Why is Khorne's sacred number 8? I like it but don't know where it comes from.

It's in the CSM codex errata here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

Lupus Nocte wrote:
Can someone please point out to me where in the current codex (8th) world eaters can take berserkers as troops? (not sarcastic would genuinely like to know as I plan on making a detachment of world eaters) as I understand it they're just an elite choice, thanks

From my research on these forums I understand it was in one of the FAQs following the Chaos Codex.


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Abaddon303 wrote:
It's in the CSM codex errata here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

Jinx

 RobS wrote:
Most 40k scale games are fragments of armies anyway, aren't they?

Replace "most" with "all" and you are getting there.

Considering that brigade maxed out with IG troops is still understrenght company and 40k battles are big huge things...Also board is super tiny for real battle. In reality we are talking about tiny piece of big army zoomed into super small area. Before 40k battles there's manouvering here and there, long range fire duels, bombardment, casualties. Then one or both force makes assault toward other to push for objective or kill something. This is what 40k is. All around are also other parts of armies fighting.

Even big apoc games don't get even close to representing 40k armies.

Thank you! now if only night lords could get raptors back as a troop choice

tneva82 wrote:

 RobS wrote:
Most 40k scale games are fragments of armies anyway, aren't they?

Replace "most" with "all" and you are getting there.

Considering that brigade maxed out with IG troops is still understrenght company and 40k battles are big huge things...Also board is super tiny for real battle. In reality we are talking about tiny piece of big army zoomed into super small area. Before 40k battles there's manouvering here and there, long range fire duels, bombardment, casualties. Then one or both force makes assault toward other to push for objective or kill something. This is what 40k is. All around are also other parts of armies fighting.

Even big apoc games don't get even close to representing 40k armies.

Why would you use a dreadnought if you have a titan?

So yes, I agree completely.

Also makes sense of objective-grabbing based 40k battles - it's a plausible fluffy reason for using infantry if there's something that needs to be physically grabbed and taken away.

Got a plan with my son to get into playing 40k by using VERY small forces, like 10 models or so, ignoring restrictions on unit sizes etc and playing little games a bit like Necromunda. Should be quick and fun.


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Lupus Nocte wrote:
Thank you! now if only night lords could get raptors back as a troop choice

I want some WE/Khorne Warp Talons but I think that's mostly because I have an unhealthy obsession with lightning claws. And when I last played (2e) you could only put them on terminators.

 RobS wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
I thought the lore was that the World Eaters legion splintered into warbands after Skalathrax anyway...

That's always been my understanding. If you transfer that to the rules you could argue that there is no World Eaters Legion any more so no-one can use Butchers Nails or take Berserkers as troops.

Which seems totally daft. I think it's fair to class any Berserker-based, Khorne-worshipping bunch of CSMs as 'World Eaters' in the eyes of the rules.

This is all assuming that a World Eaters codex doesn't appear and add more to this.

The Thousand Sons were pretty fractured prior to their upgrade to a mainline army (basically divided between "people Magnus kicked out" and "people Magnus did not kick out") but once they got a codex Magnus and Ahriman became buddies again and started working together. I wouldn't be surprised if they find some way to unify the World Eaters if a codex with Angron is in the works.

 RobS wrote:

Got a plan with my son to get into playing 40k by using VERY small forces, like 10 models or so, ignoring restrictions on unit sizes etc and playing little games a bit like Necromunda. Should be quick and fun.

Look up Kill Team

Crispy78 wrote:

 RobS wrote:

Got a plan with my son to get into playing 40k by using VERY small forces, like 10 models or so, ignoring restrictions on unit sizes etc and playing little games a bit like Necromunda. Should be quick and fun.

Look up Kill Team

Have done!


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Abaddon303 wrote:
It's in the CSM codex errata here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

On the troops/elites issue for berserkers - why does it matter?

You could still make a battle-forged army by having a lord and 3 squads of berserkers (say) by putting them in a Vanguard Detachment (if they counted as elites).

As I read it you could take up to 3 additional units of elites and 1 extra HQ and still have your army count as battle-forged.

*waits to see what he's completely misunderstood*

It matters because being able to sort your berzerkers in a battalion is generally better, as it gives you more CP.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It matters because being able to sort your berzerkers in a battalion is generally better, as it gives you more CP.

Of course. If you're playing in a game big enough to field a battalion though I'd have thought it easier to fill troops slots (with cultists for example).

However, it seems I have now got my head around CPs/detachments/battle-forged armies. Is good.

 RobS wrote:
On the troops/elites issue for berserkers - why does it matter?

You could still make a battle-forged army by having a lord and 3 squads of berserkers (say) by putting them in a Vanguard Detachment (if they counted as elites).

As I read it you could take up to 3 additional units of elites and 1 extra HQ and still have your army count as battle-forged.

*waits to see what he's completely misunderstood*

Vanquard: 1CP
Battallion: 5CP

See why battallion is preferred choice of detachment if possible?

There's reason why blood angels have been paying tax of 3x5 scouts rather than take supreme commander for their smash captains. As much as 15 scout costs they bring 4 CP(and albeit also some chaff).

Generally in 8th ed you want lots of CP's as they are so powerful. Army without strategems is generally gimped up. And strategems need CP. Which means army with more CP generally has advantage. The berserkers in vanquard detachment will result in weaker army than berserkers in battallion troops.

 RobS wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It matters because being able to sort your berzerkers in a battalion is generally better, as it gives you more CP.

Of course. If you're playing in a game big enough to field a battalion though I'd have thought it easier to fill troops slots (with cultists for example).

However, it seems I have now got my head around CPs/detachments/battle-forged armies. Is good.

Cultists are generally the better option for optimization purposes, yes, but it's still nice to be able to take your iconic marine in an ostensibly marine based army. It's basically GW telling World Eaters "if you want to take an entire army of Berzerkers, you can!" which is fitting for the legion.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 RobS wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It matters because being able to sort your berzerkers in a battalion is generally better, as it gives you more CP.

Of course. If you're playing in a game big enough to field a battalion though I'd have thought it easier to fill troops slots (with cultists for example).

However, it seems I have now got my head around CPs/detachments/battle-forged armies. Is good.

Cultists are generally the better option for optimization purposes, yes, but it's still nice to be able to take your iconic marine in an ostensibly marine based army. It's basically GW telling World Eaters "if you want to take an entire army of Berzerkers, you can!" which is fitting for the legion.

Totally. Berserkers are boss. I wanted a mainly berserker army before I found out how awesome they are. And because everyone knows they are lethal I think they'd also work pretty well for distraction purposes.

I wonder if there is WE codex we might see other berserker-type units, i.e. I might get my berserker terminators back.

I'd say for anything over 500pts you really want to be aiming for a battalion if you can. You will find the CP is not only handy for stratagems but also rerolls on your charges. Despite the khorne banner letting you red failed charges, you will find times it is better to use a cp to reroll one dice rather than the banner rerolling both. Say you roll a 6 and a 1 and need an 8" charge.
Cultists are great, but they are generally more useful in larger units. In a none worldeaters detachment you'd probably need to take 3x10 cultists and then your berserkers as elites whereas you can take a couple of berserker troop units and then the same 30 cultists in one unit to make up your three slots. Far more efficient and effective and the start of a decent little army.
I'd recommend if you go that route, and clearly you are looking at a more cc based army that rather than a lord you use a dark apostle as your warlord. His reroll all melee misses aura is more useful to you.


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Apostle (warlord)
Ex Champ

30 cultists
8 berserkers (axe and chainsword / champ with fist)
8 berserkers (ace and chainsword / champ with fist)

Rhino
Rhino

That'd be about 750pts and a really nice base for a worldeaters army to start adding other elites into. Should be fun too!

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'd say for anything over 500pts you really want to be aiming for a battalion if you can. You will find the CP is not only handy for stratagems but also rerolls on your charges. Despite the khorne banner letting you red failed charges, you will find times it is better to use a cp to reroll one dice rather than the banner rerolling both. Say you roll a 6 and a 1 and need an 8" charge.
Cultists are great, but they are generally more useful in larger units. In a none worldeaters detachment you'd probably need to take 3x10 cultists and then your berserkers as elites whereas you can take a couple of berserker troop units and then the same 30 cultists in one unit to make up your three slots. Far more efficient and effective and the start of a decent little army.
I'd recommend if you go that route, and clearly you are looking at a more cc based army that rather than a lord you use a dark apostle as your warlord. His reroll all melee misses aura is more useful to you.

All good advice. So to get to minimum requirements for a battalion I'd need 2 HQs and 3 troops. Correct?

My CSM warlord in terminator armour - HQ
Dark Apostle - HQ

3 x 5 berserker squads - 3 x troops (I know 8's are better - I'll get there)

Then I'll have a squad of terminators hanging out with his lordship and a squad of chosen doing useful stuff and perhaps shooting things.
Dark apostle will go with the zerkers.

I don't really want cultists until my force is bigger (I can see how they could be useful...but...nah, prefer CSMs).

I'm glad I read the advice online about re-rolls and rolling one dice - I wouldn't have assumed that's how it worked otherwise. I can see how useful it'd be.


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Abaddon303 wrote:
I'd say for anything over 500pts you really want to be aiming for a battalion if you can. You will find the CP is not only handy for stratagems but also rerolls on your charges. Despite the khorne banner letting you red failed charges, you will find times it is better to use a cp to reroll one dice rather than the banner rerolling both. Say you roll a 6 and a 1 and need an 8" charge.
Cultists are great, but they are generally more useful in larger units. In a none worldeaters detachment you'd probably need to take 3x10 cultists and then your berserkers as elites whereas you can take a couple of berserker troop units and then the same 30 cultists in one unit to make up your three slots. Far more efficient and effective and the start of a decent little army.
I'd recommend if you go that route, and clearly you are looking at a more cc based army that rather than a lord you use a dark apostle as your warlord. His reroll all melee misses aura is more useful to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apostle (warlord)
Ex Champ

30 cultists
8 berserkers (axe and chainsword / champ with fist)
8 berserkers (ace and chainsword / champ with fist)

Rhino
Rhino

That'd be about 750pts and a really nice base for a worldeaters army to start adding other elites into. Should be fun too!

Variations on the same theme - yeah, that's a good start.

An exalted champs aura will synergise better with your lords so maybe think about taking one of those.
Certainly when you start adding in your 2 units of terminators and unit of chosen adding a champ as another hq will give you a vanguard and an extra CP!
You are definitely gonna need some Rhinos with an army list like that otherwise you'll be shot off the board before you get anywhere...

Abaddon303 wrote:
An exalted champs aura will synergise better with your lords so maybe think about taking one of those.
Certainly when you start adding in your 2 units of terminators and unit of chosen adding a champ as another hq will give you a vanguard and an extra CP!
You are definitely gonna need some Rhinos with an army list like that otherwise you'll be shot off the board before you get anywhere...

I'll get some Rhinos, for sure. Going to discipline myself to converting and painting the models I already before I buy any more (damn you ebay).

So that's a warlord (he's on the way, just need to do some careful cutting to make him a right handed chainfist of epic proportions), a small squad of chosen (different heads, chainswords and plasma pistols), 10 terminators (4/5 of which are getting lightning claws because rule of cool) and then as big a squad of zerkers as I can cobble together.

I love how many sites there are selling odds and ends of kits now. Makes doing conversions quite a cheap process (i.e. don't have to sacrifice a whole model to get an arm or a head).

IIRC, the fluff says that only the WE and now the BL ever mastered the 'art' of Butcher's Nails.

EDIT - When you respond to what you think is the last post but there's actually another page. Mea culpa.

40k is definitely a focus on one part of a battle, not even just one part of an army. 2.5m Red Army soldiers took part just in Bagration, in four fronts. My Renegades have 60 dudes.

If you want to convert as much as possible have a think about using AOS blood warriors as a basis for berserkers I've seen some really cool stuff with those. The current berserkers kit is not great. Very tempted to do it myself, I also love berserkers, would love it if they could be a troop choice for black legion too but unfortunately that is very unlikely to happen...


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http://miniaturepainters.com/blog-recent-projects/recent-projects-converted-khorne-berserkers/

Abaddon303 wrote:
If you want to convert as much as possible have a think about using AOS blood warriors as a basis for berserkers I've seen some really cool stuff with those. The current berserkers kit is not great. Very tempted to do it myself, I also love berserkers, would love it if they could be a troop choice for black legion too but unfortunately that is very unlikely to happen...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://miniaturepainters.com/blog-recent-projects/recent-projects-converted-khorne-berserkers/

Ah yeah, I tried to buy some of those heads on their own but they were all sold out everywhere.
I have, however, bought a bunch of Chaos Warrior heads which I think will also look cool.

I'll put some pictures up when they are done (but it'll be a while yet).

In my previous life as a 40k player (2e) I sacrificed a Goliath necromunda gang to Khorne. That looked pretty cool.

Forge World have/had a really good upgrade kit for Berzerkers too - I use them for my Word Bearers berzerkers, I just swap the World Eater shoulder pad out for a Word Bearer one. Why the rabbit-ear helmets? Well, it's a WYSIWYG thing for me, my opponent can look at the squad and KNOW they're berzerkers to shoot them first. Or as my friend Necron Dave calls them "I want to shoot at them. No, not them, them". (He doesn't know what anything is called that isn't a Necron )

 Raichase wrote:
Forge World have/had a really good upgrade kit for Berzerkers too - I use them for my Word Bearers berzerkers, I just swap the World Eater shoulder pad out for a Word Bearer one. Why the rabbit-ear helmets? Well, it's a WYSIWYG thing for me, my opponent can look at the squad and KNOW they're berzerkers to shoot them first. Or as my friend Necron Dave calls them "I want to shoot at them. No, not them, them". (He doesn't know what anything is called that isn't a Necron )

I'm going to make sure at least a couple of models in each squad have the bunny-ears for that reason.

But as they are all going to have a chainsword and a chain axe and no guns I think the fact that they are berserkers will be fairly obvious.

My WYSIWYG issue is Chosen - as there is no Chosen kit I'm just using some normal CSMs. How do you know they are Chosen?

They have cloaks. Oh yes, classy move.

Chosen are a tricky one to be honest. I converted some from the dark vengeance box which I think is a common thing to do. Or use the raptor or possessed kits to add extra mutation to regular chaos marines.

Apparently end of the year will see a new Abbadon model with new Obliterators.

Presumably, a new CSM kit will follow not long after that. If they are the same detail as the Dark Vengeance Chosen and scale of the Primaris, I will finally kick start that Black Legion army I've been thinking of for years.

A WE/EC codex is an almost certainty - only question is when. A new line of Slaneesh models are not far off so one can hope a EC codex with Fulgrim will follow. (huge bag of salt, but according to a rumour a while back, Fulgrim had been completed a long time ago and currently on ice for the release window)

 RobS wrote:
But as they are all going to have a chainsword and a chain axe and no guns I think the fact that they are berserkers will be fairly obvious.

My WYSIWYG issue is Chosen - as there is no Chosen kit I'm just using some normal CSMs. How do you know they are Chosen?

They have cloaks. Oh yes, classy move.

Yeah, you're right with the axe/sword combo - pretty obvious they're Berzerkers.

You're right about Chosen being a tricky one to model - I recall a long time ago the studio pointed at some Chaos Space Marines identical to the rest of the Black Legion studio army except for some gold trim (instead of silver) and they said "the gold trim denotes these troops as Chosen". So by that logic, as long as you put a few extra details on your models (cloaks is an excellent way to do this) you just call them Chosen. If in doubt, when deploying the unit, specify "this is the Chosen" unit. Nobody can get mad, and it's not like Chosen are a top tier unit anyway that people would seek to hide them in their army and surprise people with them.