Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.

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**Xenomancers**

Just so you know - scouts do not count towards the 1000. Scouts are basically auxiliary forces.

**Carlovonsexron**

BaconCatBug wrote:
The one attempt failed genetically and even then it was a sham attempt to keep Rowboat Girlman from soiling his knickers in impotent rage.

Wouldn't the concern have actually bee his very potent rage, considering his position post heresy?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Desubot wrote:
I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.

but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show

One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.

**Haighus**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Desubot wrote:
I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.

but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show

One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.

It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.

Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
Reminds me of the If the emperor had a pod cast where the boy points out if the black Templar had crusaded through planets and always left a recruitment keep with a chaplain and a apothecary then there would be a metric butt ton of angry and bored marines on agri and feral worlds.

I would think they would rotate them into frontline service as much as is practical, to maintain combat skills and relieve boredom.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Haighus wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Desubot wrote:
I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.

but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show

One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.

It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.

Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead

His stance on their size is including the other Crusades, that even with those, there is still only 1k marines, apparently its GWs new stance on the Templars, or was who knows these days because it wasnt well received. Also my remembrance of what was said about them regarding the Eternal Crusader was off. Apparently the entirety of the Chapter could gather and not tax the Capabilities and that the 200 Marines of Helbrecht's Crusade (one fifth of the Templar's Total) left the ship feeling completely empty. I know its a Gloriana, but if the Chapter was at older fluff's size it wouldnt be that empty. Hell if 200 Marines is One-fifth of the Chapter strength, the Chapter is only One thousand strong.

**Delvarus Centurion**

bibotot wrote:
Space Marine chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines because:

Space Marine standard Company does not have 100 Astartes. It is very clear in the Fall of Damnos where the Ultramarines 2nd Company is depicted. There are 10 squads of 10, followed by Captain Sicarius, his HQ and Dreadnoughts. The roster here doesn't even include vehicle operators like Chronos. I believe Space Marine vehicles are driven by Servitors, but the guns are mostly operated by a Space Marine (a Predator would need at least 1 Space Marine inside).

10th Company can have as many Scouts as they like. Scouts are indeed Space Marines, even if they are not fully grown yet.

Space Marines sometimes have to dispatch squads to patrol, garrison, infiltration duties that take them away from their Chapter. They also die in battle, which leave their position vacant. However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.

Successor Chapters are created from excess of their parent Chapter. When a Chapter is deemed pure and successful enough that there will soon be more Space Marines in their rank than what the Codex Astartes deem appropriate, the excess is then evaluated by the Lord of Terra and split into a new Chapter after being supplied with new equipment, warship, right to build their fortress and fresh recruits.

So please, both GW and BL writers, stop putting 1000 as the figure for how many Space Marines a Chapter has. A single Space Marine makes a different. There is a big difference between 1000 Marines (what we are driven to believe) and 1100-1200 Marines (what a full-strength Chapter should have).

Not all companies have the same amount of marines. Vehicles are manned by marines, weapons are normally manned by servitors.

**Haighus**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Haighus wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Desubot wrote:
I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.

but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show

One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.

It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.

Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead

His stance on their size is including the other Crusades, that even with those, there is still only 1k marines, apparently its GWs new stance on the Templars, or was who knows these days because it wasnt well received. Also my remembrance of what was said about them regarding the Eternal Crusader was off. Apparently the entirety of the Chapter could gather and not tax the Capabilities and that the 200 Marines of Helbrecht's Crusade (one fifth of the Templar's Total) left the ship feeling completely empty. I know its a Gloriana, but if the Chapter was at older fluff's size it wouldnt be that empty. Hell if 200 Marines is One-fifth of the Chapter strength, the Chapter is only One thousand strong.

Well, if they left it that watertight, that is a pity. It is a rather unfortunate retcon, as the large, distributed size, like a mini-Legion, was part of what made the Black Templars interesting. It was another sign showing that in many ways they were following more in the spirit of the old Imperial Fists Legion than the Imperial Fists Chapter itself. Which makes sense- as the chief face of the Imperial Fists successors, the IF Chapter would need to be especially Codex-compliant to dissuade accusations of heresy, whereas the successors could get away with more deviancy.

The only remaining explanation would be that Helbrecht thought the Inquisition is taping his conversations

**Scott-S6**

bibotot wrote:

Space Marines sometimes have to dispatch squads to patrol, garrison, infiltration duties that take them away from their Chapter. They also die in battle, which leave their position vacant. However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.

Is this not exactly the difference between battle companies and reserve companies?

**CREEEEEEEEED**

For all those saying 1000 marines is unrealistic, you are of course forgetting that each marine is worth a million xenos scum. That means one chapter can fight off a billion xenos on their own! My commissar told me so.

**Delvarus Centurion**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
For all those saying 1000 marines is unrealistic, you are of course forgetting that each marine is worth a million xenos scum. That means one chapter can fight off a billion xenos on their own! My commissar told me so.

Its actually true, not a billion lol but chapters rarely even use their full 1000, or even whole companies either. Squads of marines are sent out over the galaxy to help reinforce Imperial armies. Other factions may not like how Mary Sue they are, but they are, the game makes them look like any other unit, but lore-wise they are one man armies in a lot of cases.

**NinthMusketeer**

My headcannon is x10. 1000 marines per chapter should be 10,000, 100 per company becomes 1000, a fluff of 5 marines holding off hundreds to orks was actually 50, etc. It makes a lot of things fall into sensible range quite nicely.

**Anfauglir**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I prefer to think they meant 10,000 or 100,000.

This is what I do to, it makes much more sense with every codex.

Bingo. My headcanon has always been that the Emperor aimed to roughly assemble each legion at a million. 20 million legionnaires leading an Imperial Army of billions to conquer the galaxy; that was his original goalpost. Obviously, that figure was just a general baseline, 2 legions didn't last very long, leaving 18. And the hard numbers fluctuated from legion to legion, particularly as the GC wore on and the Heresy kicked off, etc. When the legions were split it was into chapters of 10,000, battalions of 1,000, companies of 100, etc. Again just rough numbers. Command, scouts/trainees, support, navy, etc are all supplementary to that rounded figure, not apart of it - the rounded figure is for full, active marines/battlebrothers. They're all supported by a sizable force of serfs to help keep them maintained, serviceable and field operational, etc.

If you think these numbers sound big they're really, really not. They're still incredibly, laughably small for galactic scale warring, which is why 9/10 times Marines will fight in tandem with support from Imperial Navy, Guard, Mechanicus, local PDF, etc in the hundreds of thousands and millions - acting as the tiny adamantium studs/spikes on the vast flat surface of the Imperial warhammer.

**Arcanis161**

I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?

**Just Tony**

I always assumed that the command staff/specialists were pulled from the reserve companies, and that their "slot" was held there. In that case, I'd say it is more than likely that the number is close to correct. But I'm a Crimson Fists player, we have nowhere NEAR 1,000 in our Chapter.

**BrianDavion**

Just Tony wrote:
I always assumed that the command staff/specialists were pulled from the reserve companies, and that their "slot" was held there. In that case, I'd say it is more than likely that the number is close to correct. But I'm a Crimson Fists player, we have nowhere NEAR 1,000 in our Chapter.

sure you do, they're just all primaris now

**Just Tony**

...

Oh, you. You think I look at anything past 3rd Edition anymore. Silly goose...

**masterhobo**

Yea I view it as a chapter can be no more than 1000 “standard” marines, this would be tacticals, devastators, and assault marines (and the new Primaris stuff now). Vehicle crews and command elements wouldn’t be included in the 1000.

Edit: My problem with only having 1000 marines per chapter is that the lore tells us how a single company, not even a chapter, took over a planet, idk how 100 people are capable of capturing an entire planet, yea I know they are super soldiers, but that is just very hard to believe.

**Xenomancers**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
My headcannon is x10. 1000 marines per chapter should be 10,000, 100 per company becomes 1000, a fluff of 5 marines holding off hundreds to orks was actually 50, etc. It makes a lot of things fall into sensible range quite nicely.

It's not supposed to be sensible - it's supposed to be fantasy. Plus - sensibly - It's almost like brainless troll tpye creatures trying to charge you with hand to hand weapons get wipped against a small force with rapid fire grenade launchers and thick plate armor.

**darkcloak**

Nah, pretty sure it's only 1000 dudes. The Imperium wouldn't lie about stuff like that.

**Banville**

A Salamanders Company is at least 120 Marines strong. But I think they are supposed to have fewer Battle Companies overall so it evens out. I'd be of the opinion that a Chapter's fighting strength is ideally 1000 but they have about twice that on garrison duty, recovering from wounds etc etc.

**Joesus3450**

From everything in the fluff most chapters arent all chilling at the fortress monestary together taking roll call every morning and counting off marines to make sure there are only 1,000 present. They are broken up on multiple ships patrolling the galaxy purging Xenos and burning heretics. If one of those battle barges has 200 marines in a company rather than 100 no one in the Imperium is going to find out. Unless there is some sort of Ordos Auditus that calls every chapter master to do roll call and go over the chapters P&L for the last quarter.
It wouldn’t be the most deceitful things the Astartes ever did to lie about sticking to 1,000 Marines when they are WAY bigger. I mean there was that thing they did one time where half of them betrayed the Emperor and sold their souls to demons. But as long as the high lords and the inquisition don’t find out I could see it being an open secret among the chapters that it’s a soft 1,000 limit.

**Haighus**

I can totally see Ordo Auditus being a thing

The only issue with deliberately oversizing is that if you are caught, then the punishment is Excommunicatis Traitoris and being put to the sword by your fellow Astartes. Unless you have enough political clout to avoid it...

**Insectum7**

Yeah, it's only 100 troops in a company. But It's also a giant ****ing spaceship with city leveling firepower in support.

**Afrodactyl**

I always headcanon'd it to be each chapter having 1000 deployable 'basic' marines. So 1000 marines capable of wielding a bolter, manning a predator, firing a lascannon, etc. Not including dreadnoughts, command units or marines on recouperation/injured marines.

**cmspano**

I always assumed it was 1000 core soldiers. 100 squads of 10 in 10 companies. Plus officers, auxilliaries, support, vehicle operators, etc. But the core fighting force is 100 squads.

Edit: those numbers being for the chapters that closely follow the codex that is.

**locarno24**

Arcanis161 wrote:
I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?

With crews in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands for battleship class vessels, yes, in theory.

But there's a difference between carrying 10,000 dudes (which any old 1-hit pilgrim transport in BFG could do) and carrying 300 instantly battle-ready marines, plus their interface craft (drop pods + storm ravens + thunderhawks + thunderhawk transports/landing craft to bring the tanks down) plus a wide selection of tanks and APCs, plus prefabricated fortifications, plus supplies to fight several months of resource-hungry battles, plus training grounds to fight anything up to and including company-scale practice engagements en route, plus serfs and armoury assets to maintain everything.

And all without using up any of the ship's fighting capability so it's still got armour, shields and guns comparable to a navy warship of the same size...

**Haighus**

locarno24 wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?

With crews in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands for battleship class vessels, yes, in theory.

But there's a difference between carrying 10,000 dudes (which any old 1-hit pilgrim transport in BFG could do) and carrying 300 instantly battle-ready marines, plus their interface craft (drop pods + storm ravens + thunderhawks + thunderhawk transports/landing craft to bring the tanks down) plus a wide selection of tanks and APCs, plus prefabricated fortifications, plus supplies to fight several months of resource-hungry battles, plus training grounds to fight anything up to and including company-scale practice engagements en route, plus serfs and armoury assets to maintain everything.

And all without using up any of the ship's fighting capability so it's still got armour, shields and guns comparable to a navy warship of the same size...

I agree, and there is evidence for it.

In the old BFG rules, using a non-Space Marine ship equipped for Thunderhawk operations halved the number of available bays. So an Emperor-class battleship, if it was refitted for Marine operations, would only be able to deploy 2 squadrons of Thunderhawks per flank, rather than 4 squadrons of Imperial Navy craft.

So yes, clearly Marine operations take an unusually high level of space and resources. I imagine an enormous amount of spare munitions, parts, and gear are needed to keep a unit of Marines at constant combat readiness with constant sorties, which they need to be to take advantages of their unique strengths. Everytime a piece of power armour is damaged, or a Rhino blown up, or a load of bolt-rounds used up, they have to be able to get the Marine combat-effective again in minimal time. The Marine should be the most limited resource of the Chapter, other than void craft.

A battlebarge is supposed to transport around 300 battle-ready Marines. 41st millennium Marines have an unparalled level of strategic mobility, and a huge variety of deployment options. I would think the same battlebarge would carry a larger number of battle-ready Great Crusade Marines, because they tended to have less strategic mobility than an equivallent Codex Astartes force, so less space would be devoted to a variety of deployment options for the entire complement. A battlebarge could probably also carry a number of Marines who cannot be deployed in an initial planetstrike, but must be deployed in subsequent waves.

**Dakka Wolf**

Big G himself said the Codex was a guide, even the Codex itself said it was a guide - They put the warnings at the back of the book - he also took the time to point out that anyone who treated it as law was an idiot.

**chyron**

Haighus wrote:
Space Wolves are the hardest to assess

Well, everybody knows - Space Wolves in M41 are (as it should be) 1,000-strong - 50 Great Companies of 100 warriors" © signature of some guy on russian WH board

**BrianDavion**

chyron wrote:
Haighus wrote:
Space Wolves are the hardest to assess

Well, everybody knows - Space Wolves in M41 are (as it should be) 1,000-strong - 50 Great Companies of 100 warriors" © signature of some guy on russian WH board

I'm glad Wolfsbane FINALLY addressed the Space Wolves post Heresy, "yes they only split twice but they where almost completely annialated zerg rushing horus so they're pretty small"