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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I mean, Alpha legion was the only Chaos option that doesn't require bending over to a particular chaos god. Now after the nerf, they're... I mean, they're better than Night Lords I guess, just about, but that's about all you can say about them. But seems GW want's everyone to play TS smite spam (yaaawnnnn).

The Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Word Bearers all say "hi". None of those require you to side with any of the gods.

Or are you claiming that AL where the only non-god aligned competitive option? Because I'd say they've been going down hill for a while now and this is nothing new. Here's hoping that the "Marine players will be happy with CA" holds true.

Yeh, was talking competitive, not that they were especially competitive before really. But they keep being indirectly nerfed, by changes that are actually aimed at other armies who actually needed to be nerfed.

But you're right, maybe CA will fix things by reducing the points of all Chaos units. But I doubt it.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Points Changes WERE addressed in the Big FAQ by making a Chapter Approved errata.

Those are from April. There are no point changes in this September FAQ to my knowledge.

Also so...the Castellan didn't get nerfed LOLOLOLOL.

Can someone clarify for me - the new Tactical Reserves rule doesn't seem to have any effect on da jump, dark matter crystal, beacon angelis, etc. Am I right?

The exact wording is: "in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

That seems very clear and specific:

[If in reserves] -> [then cannot arrive in turn 1]

But of course, a flerd of tzaangors or a band of boyz start the game on the table, and hence won't be constrained by this rule.

Is this right? Or am I missing something?

Niiru wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I mean, Alpha legion was the only Chaos option that doesn't require bending over to a particular chaos god. Now after the nerf, they're... I mean, they're better than Night Lords I guess, just about, but that's about all you can say about them. But seems GW want's everyone to play TS smite spam (yaaawnnnn).

The Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Word Bearers all say "hi". None of those require you to side with any of the gods.

Or are you claiming that AL where the only non-god aligned competitive option? Because I'd say they've been going down hill for a while now and this is nothing new. Here's hoping that the "Marine players will be happy with CA" holds true.

Yeh, was talking competitive, not that they were especially competitive before really. But they keep being indirectly nerfed, by changes that are actually aimed at other armies who actually needed to be nerfed.

But you're right, maybe CA will fix things by reducing the points of all Chaos units. But I doubt it.

Or giving Marines a rule like Kill Team's Transhuman Physiology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Can someone clarify for me - the new Tactical Reserves rule doesn't seem to have any effect on da jump, dark matter crystal, beacon angelis, etc. Am I right?

The exact wording is: "in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

That seems very clear and specific:

[If in reserves] -> [then cannot arrive in turn 1]

But of course, a flerd of tzaangors or a band of boyz start the game on the table, and hence won't be constrained by this rule.

Is this right? Or am I missing something?

The reworded the beta rule to make it so the reserve limit only works on units that are put off the board during deployment. So slingshotting models into melee turn one is possible.

All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also so...the Castellan didn't get nerfed LOLOLOLOL.

They nerfed the CP that allowed it to have 4-5 turns of being basically unkillable. That fixed it quite a bit.

 grouchoben wrote:
Can someone clarify for me - the new Tactical Reserves rule doesn't seem to have any effect on da jump, dark matter crystal, beacon angelis, etc. Am I right?

The exact wording is: "in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

That seems very clear and specific:

[If in reserves] -> [then cannot arrive in turn 1]

But of course, a flerd of tzaangors or a band of boyz start the game on the table, and hence won't be constrained by this rule.

Is this right? Or am I missing something?

You are correct. Those stratagems/powers will work going forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

Welcome to Eldar town, where Ynnari breaking things means your CWE units pay the price.

Also as someone with 2k sized BA force myself, I feel your pain. I have effectively decided to shelf that army indefinitely.

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Yes and as a BA player I pay a significant price to do so in terms of both points and CPs, and when you run PURE BA you are getting roughly 9 CPs at most in a 2k army. Still not convinced in the slightest.

The army specific nerfs to Imperium soup abuse issues is definitely disappointing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Except that pure BA players need to put a decent chunk of points into reserve to get off the charges they want in a timely manner. None of that can happen now on turn 1, which means pure gun lines that start with 100% on the board have a greater advantage.

EldarExarch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Yes and as a BA player I pay a significant price to do so in terms of both points and CPs, and when you run PURE BA you are getting roughly 9 CPs at most in a 2k army. Still not convinced in the slightest.

I'm just saying that smart play is better than leapfrogging in terms of game balance, even if you don't like it very much. That said, Marines are supposed to be seeing something that'll make us happy in CA, so I'm not tossing my army in a bin just yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Except that pure BA players need to put a decent chunk of points into reserve to get off the charges they want in a timely manner. None of that can happen now on turn 1, which means pure gun lines that start with 100% on the board have a greater advantage.

They're stronger than they used to be but weaker than they were in previous editions. We're not going back to the edition of the gunline just yet.

EldarExarch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Yes and as a BA player I pay a significant price to do so in terms of both points and CPs, and when you run PURE BA you are getting roughly 9 CPs at most in a 2k army. Still not convinced in the slightest.

Exactly, we dont have the points left over in order to effectively decimate the screens you are referencing. If the BA jump units get significant point drops it may be ok, but until then it it the hottest soggiest garbage I can think of.

EldarExarch wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

Yes and as a BA player I pay a significant price to do so in terms of both points and CPs, and when you run PURE BA you are getting roughly 9 CPs at most in a 2k army. Still not convinced in the slightest.

Exactly, we dont have the points left over in order to effectively decimate the screens you are referencing. If the BA jump units get significant point drops it may be ok, but until then it it the hottest soggiest garbage I can think of.

Assault Marines of all varieties are suffering, not just BA versions. That said, I'm looking forward to see what CA gives us to fix things.

AND those screens, if we go first, will now be EVEN more difficult to shift.

DOUBLE WHAMMY

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

You've managed to perfectly encapsulate in one quote why shooting is so vastly superior to close combat in 40k. Assuming you manage to jump through all those hoops as the assaulting army, you still need to take overwatch fire and attacks back, spend a bunch of command points to fight again and hope you don't take too much damage from enemy attacks back at you. Then you have to hope you managed to surround the enemy to lock them in combat, and that they don't have a countercharge unit in place even if you did. The problem with close combat in 40k is to make it work you need all of that to come together - you need to "play smarter" as you put it.

Or you could just take a shooting army and not have to worry about that. Hunker down around your various reroll auras and blaze away from the safety of your cover.

EldarExarch wrote:
AND those screens, if we go first, will now be EVEN more difficult to shift.

DOUBLE WHAMMY

Cover saves only work against shooting, so if you manage to get into melee then it's moot.

meleti wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Points Changes WERE addressed in the Big FAQ by making a Chapter Approved errata.

Those are from April. There are no point changes in this September FAQ to my knowledge.

Mhmm, I know. My comment was in response to the many posts saying FAQs don't adjust points, only Chapter Approved does. The FAQ adjusted the Chapter Approved in spring.

Slipspace wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
All of the fluffy BA Jump options got unnecessarily nerfed by the Fly Change.

BA Smash captains were a problem, IN SOUP ARMIES WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY BA UNIT THEY RAN.

Pure BA players like myself, have been nerfed into oblivion for no other reason than tourney WAAC players abuse.

That is not right, nor is it fair. Please try to convince me otherwise.

You mean declaring charges on a screen unit and then the unit behind it, consolidating into the unit behind it and then popping a fight twice strat isn't a strat you can use? Or using two units one to charge or shoot the screen out of the way, and the second to charge the target) doesn't work? I mean, jumping over units to charge the target you want to hit the most isn't the only way to do it, and requiring smarter play isn't a bad thing.

You've managed to perfectly encapsulate in one quote why shooting is so vastly superior to close combat in 40k. Assuming you manage to jump through all those hoops as the assaulting army, you still need to take overwatch fire and attacks back, spend a bunch of command points to fight again and hope you don't take too much damage from enemy attacks back at you. Then you have to hope you managed to surround the enemy to lock them in combat, and that they don't have a countercharge unit in place even if you did. The problem with close combat in 40k is to make it work you need all of that to come together - you need to "play smarter" as you put it.

Or you could just take a shooting army and not have to worry about that. Hunker down around your various reroll auras and blaze away from the safety of your cover.

I have said that there needs to be a change to how shooting works when shooting through units. It's one of the few things I feel is truly wrong with shooting in this edition (other than more modifiers both positive and negative ones). I won't deny it's a thing, but I'm not going to agree that shooting is somehow broken when compared to melee when shooting has taken a bat to the knees against anyone who isn't MEQ or TEQ.

Dude I want to shoot the screen so I can charge something worthwhile instead of some garbage 85 pt unit with my 200+ pt unit.

How many stipulations must my army have to even sniff success?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Especially when it is one of "signature" units. And if even one of those stipulations falter, guess what, my awesome unit is nothing more than dust. And I can only use my DC strat once per turn, so I do not have the ability to crowd the fields with actual threats.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
AND those screens, if we go first, will now be EVEN more difficult to shift.

DOUBLE WHAMMY

Cover saves only work against shooting, so if you manage to get into melee then it's moot.

Clearly he means that you SHOOT the Screens to assault stuff behind them.
Now you cannot jump over them (fair enough, I guess) and they're guaranteed cover if you go first, so they'll be harder to shift to make room for your assault unit to charge what they want, rather than waste time on chaff

Although, they probably had cover before, so I'm thinking of this Strat as a -2CPs for the opponent to "think" they got a bonus. Rather than just actually using cover.
It doesn't help screens as much as it help Vehicles and Monsters that aren't obscured.

-

 Galef wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
AND those screens, if we go first, will now be EVEN more difficult to shift.

DOUBLE WHAMMY

Cover saves only work against shooting, so if you manage to get into melee then it's moot.

Clearly he means that you SHOOT the Screens to assault stuff behind them.
Now you cannot jump over them (fair enough) and they're guaranteed cover if you go first.

Although, they probably had cover before, so I'm thinking of this Strat as a -2CPs for the opponent to "think" they got a bonus. Rather than just actually using cover.
It doesn't help screens as much as it help Vehicles and Monsters that aren't obscured.-

That's a fair point, but quite honestly I feel like it's more a nerf for turn one combat more than combat overall.

Ok but my DC have a specific strat that is supposed to help them get into combat on turn 1, and again it's only 1 unit that will get to do this.

That 1 unit will not be able to effectively tie up more than 2 of your shooty units (provided that you deployed somewhat intelligently), and then next turn its almost guaranteed dead.

I understand your point of not having multiple units being able to tie up a shooty army on turn 1, but that's not what we are asking for.

Im asking that one of my specialized units be able to make it up the board and have an impact on turn 1, before it dies in a blaze of glory. I really don't feel like that is imbalanced or an unfair ask all things considered.

Additionally, it LITERALLY fit their fluff to a T.

EldarExarch wrote:
Ok but my DC have a specific strat that is supposed to help them get into combat on turn 1, and again it's only 1 unit that will get to do this.

That 1 unit will not be able to effectively tie up more than 2 of your shooty units (provided that you deployed somewhat intelligently), and then next turn its almost guaranteed dead.

I understand your point of not having multiple units being able to tie up a shooty army on turn 1, but that's not what we are asking for.

Im asking that one of my specialized units be able to make it up the board and have an impact on turn 1, before it dies in a blaze of glory. I really don't feel like that is imbalanced or an unfair ask all things considered.

Look, I get that not getting to jump over things nerfed very specific uses of assault marines and their kin. Thing is I don't think the game is worse for it, just specific uses of units that aren't that good to start with (at least not that good without a lot of points being dumped in on top of them). The units need to be fixed. Letting fly stay unchanged to allow them to be less garbage isn't fixing them, it's giving them a crunch while using it as an excuse for breaking their legs in the first place.

I honestly see the situation much brigther now for CC armies.

If i go first no problem, i will have to weather only one turn of firing then it will be my turn 2 and the enemy is out of shooting phases.

If i go second, i will weather one shooting phase with a bonus and his screens will not be protected.

A big improvement. Surely it rewards the mid/close range armies which do not bank on having first turn.

I've never been so pissed at Games Workshop as I am now. I recently bought a pair of Drills and converted some Fulgurites. And then, out of the blue, this massive nerf to infiltration? What the hell? Are AdMech and Alpha Legion so dangerous that we needed to have a core mechanic pulled out from under us?

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly see the situation much brigther now for CC armies.

If i go first no problem, i will have to weather only one turn of firing then it will be my turn 2 and the enemy is out of shooting phases.

If i go second, i will weather one shooting phase with a bonus and his screens will not be protected.

A big improvement. Surely it rewards the mid/close range armies which do not bank on having first turn.

I think you over estimate what +1 save can really do. Most armies already know how to utilize cover as-is, so this Strat doesn't really do much except help armies that have lots of hard-to-hide tanks and Flyers, which are typically part of gunline armies.
Don't get me wrong, I like the strat, but it helps gunline armies a bit more than melee armies.

-

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly see the situation much brigther now for CC armies.

If i go first no problem, i will have to weather only one turn of firing then it will be my turn 2 and the enemy is out of shooting phases.

If i go second, i will weather one shooting phase with a bonus and his screens will not be protected.

A big improvement. Surely it rewards the mid/close range armies which do not bank on having first turn.

I think you over estimate what +1 save can really do. Most armies already know how to utilize cover as-is, so this Strat doesn't really do much except help armies that have lots of hard-to-hide tanks and Flyers, which are typically part of gunline armies.
Don't get me wrong, I like the strat, but it helps gunline armies a bit more than melee armies.

-

I can tell you that my leviathan list loves this strat, and is a mid/close range army.

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly see the situation much brigther now for CC armies.

If i go first no problem, i will have to weather only one turn of firing then it will be my turn 2 and the enemy is out of shooting phases.

If i go second, i will weather one shooting phase with a bonus and his screens will not be protected.

A big improvement. Surely it rewards the mid/close range armies which do not bank on having first turn.

I think you over estimate what +1 save can really do. Most armies already know how to utilize cover as-is, so this Strat doesn't really do much except help armies that have lots of hard-to-hide tanks and Flyers, which are typically part of gunline armies.
Don't get me wrong, I like the strat, but it helps gunline armies a bit more than melee armies.

-

It helps hordes who can't fit their units into cover easilly as well. And it helps transports a lot which were basically neglected.