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Hey collective. Been collecting models for years, played a previous edition here and there. I was about to dive into 8th but digging through the forums in the span of a few months it looks like this edition went from a clean new start to a cluster F with errors and FAQs upon FAQs. Am I just better off using the the BRB and Indexes among friends? Please note, our circle does not do tourneys, and does not do pick up games. I ask only because I recall people saying the Index armies seemed fairly balanced among each other if no other factors were involved. Or would that not work given how the BRB has been FAQd and reFAQd upsetting any semblance of balance. I understand the Indexes were created as a stop gap so people could use their models as they transitioned into 8th, so some things may be bland (but I also heard Index armies having stuff current codexes don't)...I just feel people sounded happier in the Index days before New Power Creep Codexes and Unnecessary Nerfs. Or would I be missing out on stuff that would really define a (positive) 8th edition experience?

You’re welcome to play 40k however you and your opponents want to do it.

You certainly could just do index battles.

the only positives to full codex 8th is a lot of "options"

so you may miss out on some new and shiny things but its not necessary to play the game at all.

I don't think people played the index armies long enough to make that proper assessment. You're also losing a ton of variety.

The FAQs are fine. Sit down and process them.

In addition to the variety, I'd argue you lose flavor. Also points tweaks that some units needed.

Indexes were probably more balanced but also much more bland. I also smell nostalgia-tinted-glasses when people talk about the Index period and people seem to forget we had atrocities like Conscripts, a Forge World Chaos Guard character that I forgot the exact name of (edit: Ah, I just remembered. It was the Malefic Lord), Riptides (as in being below even trash tier) and Blood Angels (same as Riptide).

Yeah in my opinion you should use the most up to date state of the game. You have more options and ways to play and arguably better balance. It's a better game now then it was.

The thing about forums is they are full of bullgak, agendas, and attention seeking. It's better to read and play the actual rules and make up your own mind about their quality.

Any edition of any GW game is going to be a clusterf*** of errors, poor balance, and excessive FAQs that you and your group are going to need to rearrange into some kind of shape. The Indexes have different challenges from the Codexes, different models are degenerate or worthless, but I don't think the amount of work changes.

The difference between trying to run a retro version of the game and trying to keep up to date is that you will be able to get more feedback from a broader group of players asking questions on forums or looking for articles talking about how the current version of the game works rather than various past versions.

GW has made great strides in letting you choose at which level to interact with their game.

Index is fast and cheap, Codexes add an extra layer of complexity and FAQ/errata tweak balance but add extra complexity (in tracking down and keeping up with the rules).

Personally, I’m fine with just the Indexes, and keeping up with point changes via BattleScribe. If I feel like adding more options, I’ve got the stratagem card decks to throw in the mix.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
Hey collective. Been collecting models for years, played a previous edition here and there. I was about to dive into 8th but digging through the forums in the span of a few months it looks like this edition went from a clean new start to a cluster F with errors and FAQs upon FAQs. Am I just better off using the the BRB and Indexes among friends? Please note, our circle does not do tourneys, and does not do pick up games. I ask only because I recall people saying the Index armies seemed fairly balanced among each other if no other factors were involved. Or would that not work given how the BRB has been FAQd and reFAQd upsetting any semblance of balance. I understand the Indexes were created as a stop gap so people could use their models as they transitioned into 8th, so some things may be bland (but I also heard Index armies having stuff current codexes don't)...I just feel people sounded happier in the Index days before New Power Creep Codexes and Unnecessary Nerfs. Or would I be missing out on stuff that would really define a (positive) 8th edition experience?

Here, I highlighted your mistake.

Forums are useful for painting tutorials, rumors and drama. For well formed opinions, you should look elsewhere.

Dont drink kool aid from the hyperbowl.

Its usually two people stirring the pot.

I'd prefer a game with less gimmicks and more nuanced tactical options - but alas 40k is not that game. I think the game is better with the strategems and chapter tactics than without.

The FAQs aren't really that extensive beyond the basic changes like the deep strike, max detachments, etc. The vast majority of the other FAQs are to answer special case questions that likely won't come up in 99% of games.

Index GK were better then non index GK, I have been told. Had more useful units too.

Best off playing 2nd edition.

Best way to play 40k has and probably always will be to find other people who have the same expectations from what you want from a game and modify rules that don't quite work. This is one of GW's better base editions but there is always room for improvement.

Ignore BaconCatBug. the FAQs represent a sign of improvement, they exist because GW is communicating more and communicating BETTER, before if your codex was hot garbage you had to wait an entire year, meanwhile if one army was broken and dominating you likewise had the issue for the entire edition.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
Hey collective. Been collecting models for years, played a previous edition here and there. I was about to dive into 8th but digging through the forums in the span of a few months it looks like this edition went from a clean new start to a cluster F with errors and FAQs upon FAQs. Am I just better off using the the BRB and Indexes among friends? Please note, our circle does not do tourneys, and does not do pick up games. I ask only because I recall people saying the Index armies seemed fairly balanced among each other if no other factors were involved. Or would that not work given how the BRB has been FAQd and reFAQd upsetting any semblance of balance. I understand the Indexes were created as a stop gap so people could use their models as they transitioned into 8th, so some things may be bland (but I also heard Index armies having stuff current codexes don't)...I just feel people sounded happier in the Index days before New Power Creep Codexes and Unnecessary Nerfs. Or would I be missing out on stuff that would really define a (positive) 8th edition experience?

The index was "balanced" because they gutted everything down to super bare bones so there wasn't a ton of power creep going on. Still a lot of internal balance issues going on (see everything ranged based in the Ork index for example) so the indexes are not some paragon of game design. Core rules are still really basic which is my major gripe with the game as I find the game just boring in its current state. Current codexes add more variety and gimmicks (for good or bad) but ultimately the core rules are where I personally find fault with the game more than the codexes/indexes. The biggest relief people probably had with the indexes is that we went from the tail end of 7th with its INSANE power creep and zero regard for balance to resetting the board so under served armies actually stood a chance (even if it was some very mono build lists). I personally don't think index only is the superior option for enjoying 8th edition but then again I much rather play 7th edition (even with my Orks).

BrianDavion wrote:
Ignore BaconCatBug. the FAQs represent a sign of improvement, they exist because GW is communicating more and communicating BETTER, before if your codex was hot garbage you had to wait an entire year, meanwhile if one army was broken and dominating you likewise had the issue for the entire edition.

I think that depends on the faction and what style of game your playing. If your a top end tournament player your probablly very happy, if you happen to also be someone who not played any of the stuff that got nerfed, your happy+.

On the other spectrum you have someone like me. I play GK, they are the worse army in w40k with a codex, horrible to play with. The anwser to my problems, and those of other people that play GK, in this post kirby edition is . Nerf , nerf again with codex, nerf with FAQ, nerf with CA , nerf with FAQ again and finally no FAQ. To a degree one could say it is an improvment, because each time a new FAQ or CA came out, GK got the stick. This time they got nothing, so it is technicly better, on the same level one could say that today I did not get beat up at school ergo this day was good.

Even without all those nerfs GK would have sucked, because the blanket nerfs were to things that could be done by other factions even better than GK could do them.

For example, any army running smite spam could wipe out most GK armies turn one.

GK have a general design flaw and are built on an already weak foundation (Marines). No matter what you buff or nerf, they will be at the bottom of the barrel. Everything hat hit GK hit TS just as hard - they are not struggling at all.

For all intents and purposes, the current incarnation of the GK should be ignored for all design decisions. GK themselves are the issue, not the game around them.

They can wipe them out without the smite too, and can do it post smite nerf too. But assuming this is the case and GK really are that bad, and it sure looks like they are that bad.
Why doesn't GW fix them. This is not the first 2 months of 8th ed, and GK aren't bad just now. They were bad day one, and since 8th came out GW put out 2-3 FAQs and a CA. And if one ignores the nerf, that often happen because something else has to be nerfed or changed, the attention to GK is non existent.
It is as if no one sat down and looked at the GK index or codex, including the people that wrote rules for both of those books.
If the claim is to be valid that GW is different, and I don't know how it was before 8th ed other then through stories, then this can't be explained.

Karol wrote:
They can wipe them out without the smite too, and can do it post smite nerf too. But assuming this is the case and GK really are that bad, and it sure looks like they are that bad.
Why doesn't GW fix them. This is not the first 2 months of 8th ed, and GK aren't bad just now. They were bad day one, and since 8th came out GW put out 2-3 FAQs and a CA. And if one ignores the nerf, that often happen because something else has to be nerfed or changed, the attention to GK is non existent.
It is as if no one sat down and looked at the GK index or codex, including the people that wrote rules for both of those books.
If the claim is to be valid that GW is different, and I don't know how it was before 8th ed other then through stories, then this can't be explained.

I think the only explanations can be that:

1.
A proper fix would involve rewriting more of the codex than they are willing to do, because they still want to sell paper copies (note that this could well be something dictated to the rules team by executives).

2.
They have a priority list that will always skew to new releases and the rules team simply haven't had time to do a significant rework on a faction that isn't a focus for selling models right now.

Index-only games tend to spread out better over the game.

Most Codexes increased the offensive output of armies through re-rolls, stratagems, more shots, double-shooting, etc., etc.., but didn't change much on the defensive side of things. So playing with Codexes tends to be more "Glasscannon-40K" with greater reliance on 1st turn and more stuff dying quickly.

 Stux wrote:


I think the only explanations can be that:

1.
A proper fix would involve rewriting more of the codex than they are willing to do, because they still want to sell paper copies (note that this could well be something dictated to the rules team by executives).

2.
They have a priority list that will always skew to new releases and the rules team simply haven't had time to do a significant rework on a faction that isn't a focus for selling models right now.

how much time would it take someone to just do a flat 10-20% pts drop on GK units, or add to an already existing FAQ? Or if people can't deal with percentage counting themself, just give GK a rule that lets them play with 2200pts in a 2000pts game. I mean anything would be better then it is right now. Normal smite, a bonus to A, fixing the psycannons or making the nemezis weapons cost 0pts. It is insane how much GK have to pay for upgrades they never get to use.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


I think the only explanations can be that:

1.
A proper fix would involve rewriting more of the codex than they are willing to do, because they still want to sell paper copies (note that this could well be something dictated to the rules team by executives).

2.
They have a priority list that will always skew to new releases and the rules team simply haven't had time to do a significant rework on a faction that isn't a focus for selling models right now.

how much time would it take someone to just do a flat 10-20% pts drop on GK units, or add to an already existing FAQ? Or if people can't deal with percentage counting themself, just give GK a rule that lets them play with 2200pts in a 2000pts game. I mean anything would be better then it is right now. Normal smite, a bonus to A, fixing the psycannons or making the nemezis weapons cost 0pts. It is insane how much GK have to pay for upgrades they never get to use.

A flat percentage 'you work it out' reduction would never happen sorry, neither would bonus points to a single faction.

It needs a proper look at, not to mention that many of GKs problems are an exacerbated extension of general Marine problems, which require an even bigger change that they may well have decided isn't feasible until the edition rolls over.