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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.

Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.

So they do that in a single situation. And then what?

Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.

^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.

You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.

The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.

Dark reapers were amassing because world of the phoenix was 5 and they always shoot 2 times. Now the Word have cast value of 8 and DR point increase removed them from the top players lists. It is still good shooting unit, but 34 pts for +3 save 1 wound unit is to unreliable.

Too many replies to cite if I do so, so just telling what happened in last game. Telling you the whole story.

The RP is warlord. have the Saga of the Hunt, which gives himself advance and charge, and if he made a charge, immediately everyone within 6" of him can also charge after advancing. So I attempted the advance and charge with him and two squad of GH disembarked from the Rhino. His company comander is hiding behind the squad of course and I noticed his Company Comander can interven, but of course I didn't read this post AND of course didn't investigate in IG close combat buffing ability carefully, thus what I don't know is how powerful his company comander can be in combat. So I think: yea he might intervene and shove Three Powerfist attack on the Runepriest, hitting on 4s wounding on 3s, and I have runic armor for 5++, 2 rounds of attacks shouldn't kill me unless the dice rolls are extreme, and I decided to advance and charge in, because I need that Warlord Trait bonus for everyone, and I need to silence his Self Propelled Artilery behind his infantry line asap, at Turn 2 latest!! But after he interven and show me how he gets as many attacks as Arjac, Bjorn, Logan Grimnar, Dante and Marnus Calgar each time he fight, I was truely shocked. But the trap had already sprang.

Yes, that RP complete his deed of legend and let the other Wolves brothers charge after advance. Yes together they killed around 20 guardsmen in the 1st turn charge to bteak his bubblewarp. But the RP is fisted dead dead dead, and crafted his own unique Saga which is being defeated by a mere Imperial Guard Company Comander.

You guys might had questioned my gaming technique. Yes I admit I am not a good enough player of 40k because I did not investigate IG well enough and did not visit Dakkadakka frequent enough and not read this thread deep enough before the game. So what I know is: their infantry are cheap, their infantry, tanks and field guns are more than powerful in shooting for their cost, but those infantry are paper thin compare to SM. Hence I was thinking that "Oh, IG is an OP gunline shooting army with powerful tanks and artilery, when you charge in and slash their bubblewarp infantry, their heavy firepower will be vunerable of being smacked or at minimum tied up." which led to my rather reckless strategy. However I really don't think that letting IG non-named Characters to have 5 powerfist attacks is not givng them OP close combat ability , given the fact that IG shooting is way more than enough to make up their (if) lacking of combat ability.

You asked if I would do a better job setting up my chargers in the future? Yes, of course!!! AND I will ask my opponent if the model in his/her army had any special ability for every model that I first encounter, and think twice about my strategy before deploying any units.

Comparing cultists to infantry is probably the best argument for infantry being under costed, since they are nominally both considered to be 'normal' people. The differences between them make sense, they are better trained and better equipped than cultists, generally, but there is the notable difference that the guard have a relatively efficient logistics system getting them from place to place while cultists are, barring exceptional cases, raised locally.

That roughly accounts for the lore I've read, where guard can overcome uprisings by virtue of that superior equipment, hold better than pdf due to superior training, and match numbers for numbers by taking cargo ships full of people from place to place.

So. If you up them to 5ppm. What changes? What exactly is a 5ppm infantry model? What's the benchmark we measure against then?

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

The double fight order does not work due to it's timing.

How many times do you get to shoot in melee with pistols? That's the same number of times that a guard can use the double fight order.

Wth hordes of dudes? Literally every game, You just shoot twice otherwise. It's tomatoes tomatoes.

How can you possibly defend this BS? The ability for a 4 point model to attack 6 times with str 4. Should not exist.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

The double fight order does not work due to it's timing.

How many times do you get to shoot in melee with pistols? That's the same number of times that a guard can use the double fight order.

Wth hordes of dudes? Literally every game, You just shoot twice otherwise. It's tomatoes tomatoes.

How can you possibly defend this BS? The ability for a 4 point model to attack 6 times with str 4. Should not exist.

And yet, it does!

The hilarious part is that Knights and Custode Bikes are so egregious that people aren't even talking about this.

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

1. Death Guard. You can take Magnus if you want but he's not required for a godly force. Mortarian is ridiculous.
2. Knights + Guard. People are typically taking the ~300 point variation where they get some extra juice with artillery. I've also seen this work well with Basilisks.
3. Custodes + Guard. Same deal. Can't beat cheap!
4. Ynnari Craftworlds. Ynnari is the crutch that keeps Eldar alive, and this wasn't nerfed (again) so they're still hanging on. The Vect nerf is impactful but people were bringing minimum DE to fuel their Shining Spear + Reaper Ynnari engine anyway.

That's it. If you don't play one of these 4 things, you're on the outside, looking in.

Other armies are all tier 2 or worse compared to this stuff.

Yeah - DE is good to but all eldar soup is good.
Harlie bikes are nutts.

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.

Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.

So they do that in a single situation. And then what?

Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.

^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.

You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.

The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.

If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.

Then what did the model miss?

I can provide you a mathematically correct scenario where 5 firewarriors kill 10 guards without suffering a single loss, and i can do this only because this way of comparing stuff is silly. Not only that, but it fails to consider all the ways that the said models interact with other models.
In the specific case of guards vs firewarriors, let me ask you:

Who is better at taking out T4 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at taking out T6,7,8,9 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at overwatch? (Spoiler: FW)

All of these advantages should not have a cost for the FW?

I use math as an argument and accept it as an argument used against me, but it must be real math with a rationale, not random numbers.

You're probably using the method where the Fire Warriors have an extra 6" of range from the one Sept?

Also I have it as they kill an equal amount of MEQ (0.56) and anything above T6 with a 2-3+. It's almost as though when you have twice the shots it doesn't matter how much better the Tau gun is. Remember how most things are killed via weight of fire?

Also what makes them better at Overwatch?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - DE is good to but all eldar soup is good.
Harlie bikes are nutts.

There are quite a few "good" armies that fall under the top tier lists, that can compete with each other.

Due to the nature of Knights and how you can bolt them on to any force, even previously mono-guard armies are running Castellans now. And, with the FAQ not limiting this, you're going to see it more. Especially now, since screening units like Guardsmen just got a huge buff with the nerf to FLY.

Dark Eldar as an army rely on Eldar to function. If you think you're killing Knights with Poison Weapons and Strength 8 guns you're sadly mistaken. And you won't stand up to Chaos without psychic denial.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.

Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.

So they do that in a single situation. And then what?

Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.

^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.

You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.

The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.

If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.

Then what did the model miss?

I can provide you a mathematically correct scenario where 5 firewarriors kill 10 guards without suffering a single loss, and i can do this only because this way of comparing stuff is silly. Not only that, but it fails to consider all the ways that the said models interact with other models.
In the specific case of guards vs firewarriors, let me ask you:

Who is better at taking out T4 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at taking out T6,7,8,9 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at overwatch? (Spoiler: FW)

All of these advantages should not have a cost for the FW?

I use math as an argument and accept it as an argument used against me, but it must be real math with a rationale, not random numbers.

You're probably using the method where the Fire Warriors have an extra 6" of range from the one Sept?

Also I have it as they kill an equal amount of MEQ (0.56) and anything above T6 with a 2-3+. It's almost as though when you have twice the shots it doesn't matter how much better the Tau gun is. Remember how most things are killed via weight of fire?

Also what makes them better at Overwatch?

Wrong on many points.

1) Guards inflict less wounds on MEQ, slightly less, but less. Remember the las pistol.
2) They do so at a greater range, so even if they were the same wounds, FW would be the best at this.
3) "Also what makes them better at Overwatch?"????? Now you are trolling.

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.

Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.

So they do that in a single situation. And then what?

Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.

^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.

You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.

The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.

If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.

Then what did the model miss?

I can provide you a mathematically correct scenario where 5 firewarriors kill 10 guards without suffering a single loss, and i can do this only because this way of comparing stuff is silly. Not only that, but it fails to consider all the ways that the said models interact with other models.
In the specific case of guards vs firewarriors, let me ask you:

Who is better at taking out T4 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at taking out T6,7,8,9 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at overwatch? (Spoiler: FW)

All of these advantages should not have a cost for the FW?

I use math as an argument and accept it as an argument used against me, but it must be real math with a rationale, not random numbers.

You're probably using the method where the Fire Warriors have an extra 6" of range from the one Sept?

Also I have it as they kill an equal amount of MEQ (0.56) and anything above T6 with a 2-3+. It's almost as though when you have twice the shots it doesn't matter how much better the Tau gun is. Remember how most things are killed via weight of fire?

Also what makes them better at Overwatch?

Wrong on many points.

1) Guards inflict less wounds on MEQ, slightly less, but less. Remember the las pistol.
2) They do so at a greater range, so even if they were the same wounds, FW would be the best at this.
3) "Also what makes them better at Overwatch?"????? Now you are trolling.

3) ehm. For the Greater Good?
And T'au sept.

 Marmatag wrote:

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

To be fair, every edition has had this issue. You get 2-4 top armies each with a couple variations of builds that dominate, and everything else is starkly below that, with 2-4 armies being hopelessly outclassed and outdated below everything else. 6E/7E was the worst by far, but the current state of affairs is pretty close to where we were in 3E/4E/5E.

GW can never manage to balance stuff very well

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

The double fight order does not work due to it's timing.

How many times do you get to shoot in melee with pistols? That's the same number of times that a guard can use the double fight order.

Wth hordes of dudes? Literally every game, You just shoot twice otherwise. It's tomatoes tomatoes.

How can you possibly defend this BS? The ability for a 4 point model to attack 6 times with str 4. Should not exist.

And yet, it does!

The hilarious part is that Knights and Custode Bikes are so egregious that people aren't even talking about this.

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

1. Death Guard. You can take Magnus if you want but he's not required for a godly force. Mortarian is ridiculous.
2. Knights + Guard. People are typically taking the ~300 point variation where they get some extra juice with artillery. I've also seen this work well with Basilisks.
3. Custodes + Guard. Same deal. Can't beat cheap!
4. Ynnari Craftworlds. Ynnari is the crutch that keeps Eldar alive, and this wasn't nerfed (again) so they're still hanging on. The Vect nerf is impactful but people were bringing minimum DE to fuel their Shining Spear + Reaper Ynnari engine anyway.

That's it. If you don't play one of these 4 things, you're on the outside, looking in.

Other armies are all tier 2 or worse compared to this stuff.

Genuinely curious how mono-DG with Morty is so awesome... that way you have no Warptime so he can't make a T1 charge. And even Mortarion will not survive every anti-tank weapon of your opponent being pointed at him. How do you keep him alive? Again, genuinely curious because I've had massive trouble with that.

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The model isn't bad though. Reapers are having an advantage until Tactical Marines get into Rapid Fire.

5 marines with Grav Cannon face equal points of Dark Reapers at 24"
Marines: Bolters(4x.666x.666x.333)=0.59 + Grav(4×.666x.666x.83)=1.47. =2.06 for 68 points of Reapers dead

Reapers: (6×.666×.666×.666)=1.7 =23 points of marines dead

Point for point Tac marines come out way ahead at 24".

You failed to factor in the -1 to Hit of course. Dark Reapers wouldn't suffer from that anyway.

Doesn't change the math enough to correct your statement, and that's what matters in an internet argument. The Tacs still come out well ahead.

So they do that in a single situation. And then what?

Infantry were compared to all the troop choices.

^The entire point is that the method for comparison is bad to begin with. So you can go ahead and do a bunch of math based on the same model and I still won't pay attention to it because the game doesn't function that way.

You can't just NOT believe the math. The universe doesn't function like that.

The point is Dark Reapers were compared to similar choices for their role (killing elite infantry and lighter vehicles) and they are simply the top of their class because of special rules and Exarchs being silly still (which you didn't calculate the BS2+ for them), and then they still have the ability to tackle heavier targets too.

If your mathematical model is bad, you can absolutely disbelieve the math.

Then what did the model miss?

I can provide you a mathematically correct scenario where 5 firewarriors kill 10 guards without suffering a single loss, and i can do this only because this way of comparing stuff is silly. Not only that, but it fails to consider all the ways that the said models interact with other models.
In the specific case of guards vs firewarriors, let me ask you:

Who is better at taking out T4 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at taking out T6,7,8,9 models? (Spoiler: FW)
Who is better at overwatch? (Spoiler: FW)

All of these advantages should not have a cost for the FW?

I use math as an argument and accept it as an argument used against me, but it must be real math with a rationale, not random numbers.

You're probably using the method where the Fire Warriors have an extra 6" of range from the one Sept?

Also I have it as they kill an equal amount of MEQ (0.56) and anything above T6 with a 2-3+. It's almost as though when you have twice the shots it doesn't matter how much better the Tau gun is. Remember how most things are killed via weight of fire?

Also what makes them better at Overwatch?

Wrong on many points.

1) Guards inflict less wounds on MEQ, slightly less, but less. Remember the las pistol.
2) They do so at a greater range, so even if they were the same wounds, FW would be the best at this.
3) "Also what makes them better at Overwatch?"????? Now you are trolling.

1. Then add a Bolter for a point for all I care.
2. With Fire Warriors you're basically just paying for the range. That's all they got going for them compared to Infantry, and we already have people thinking Fire Warriors and Skitarii Rangers need a price bump!
3. You mean when you have someone next to them? Otherwise no squad is getting a 5+ Overwatch directly. Guard can do that though, go figure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. With Fire Warriors you're basically just paying for the range. That's all they got going for them compared to Infantry, and we already have people thinking Fire Warriors and Skitarii Rangers need a price bump!

Fire Warriors and Skitarii Rangers both have a 4+ save instead of a 5+ save...which GW seems to value at a point each. Fire Warriors additionally get Bonding Ritual, which is a fairly helpful leadership related ability(even if many argue "morale doesn't mean much").

3. You mean when you have someone next to them? Otherwise no squad is getting a 5+ Overwatch directly. Guard can do that though, go figure.

6" might not be a whole lot of range for them to get the benefits from , but it is important to note that the Tau one specifically is called out as being done without concern to your Ballistic Skill or any modifiers(so any negatives to hit aren't able to come into play here). The Mordian version is a flat +1 to hit rolls which can be offset by those negative to hit mods.

Defensive Gunners only applies to vehicles.

 kastelen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.

Other things also need to be nerfed:

Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.

Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.

Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.

So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?

And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?

They'd still see a lot of use with their only thing worse than conscripts being a 6+ save and no grenades while they would be cheaper, have access to special weapons, have a higher leadership and have melee weapons.

Assuming all you were doing was making Cultists into 3pt models, but dropping their WS and BS to 5+...

- Conscripts have a better save
- Conscripts have Grenades
- Conscripts get Orders, so can move twice as fast / shoot twice as much.

- Cultists get 1 'special' weapon per 10 (it's not a good weapon though so barely worth mentioning)
- Slightly better leadership
- Can have melee weapons, but only if you remove their rifles, so again not really worth it the rifles are always a better option.


So basically it's slightly better leadership (which conscripts don't need anyway), vs a better save, grenades, and orders. Landslide victory for the conscripts.

Edit: cultists were briefly decent if used as alpha legion with the infiltration stratagem, but that has been nerfed into oblivion now so yeh, cultists are mediocre. All chaos lists will still take them, because they're the best/only option they have, but that doesn't make them good it just makes them a better option than space marines (which is a pretty low bar to set these days).

Niiru wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.

Other things also need to be nerfed:

Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.

Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.

Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.

So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?

And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?

They'd still see a lot of use with their only thing worse than conscripts being a 6+ save and no grenades while they would be cheaper, have access to special weapons, have a higher leadership and have melee weapons.

Assuming all you were doing was making Cultists into 3pt models, but dropping their WS and BS to 5+...

- Conscripts have a better save
- Conscripts have Grenades
- Conscripts get Orders, so can move twice as fast / shoot twice as much.

Conscripts can get Orders only on a 4+. They literally were given an ability to prevent them from getting them 100% of the time.

Also worth mentioning that quite a few Guard players have suggested they get a 6+ save and the Auxilia faction meaning they just plain old can't get Orders.

- Cultists get 1 'special' weapon per 10 (it's not a good weapon though so barely worth mentioning)
- Slightly better leadership
- Can have melee weapons, but only if you remove their rifles, so again not really worth it the rifles are always a better option.

Cultists have options for Flamers, people seem to like Flamers.

So basically it's slightly better leadership (which conscripts don't need anyway), vs a better save, grenades, and orders. Landslide victory for the conscripts.

Conscripts absolutely do need leadership since Commissars don't give them inherent immunity at the cost of a model. Orders aren't reliable.

This isn't the Index anymore.

Niiru wrote:
Assuming all you were doing was making Cultists into 3pt models, but dropping their WS and BS to 5+...

- Conscripts have a better save
- Conscripts have Grenades
- Conscripts get Orders, so can move twice as fast / shoot twice as much.

- Cultists get 1 'special' weapon per 10 (it's not a good weapon though so barely worth mentioning)
- Slightly better leadership
- Can have melee weapons, but only if you remove their rifles, so again not really worth it the rifles are always a better option.


So basically it's slightly better leadership (which conscripts don't need anyway), vs a better save, grenades, and orders. Landslide victory for the conscripts.

To be fair its an order on a 4+, so only a 50/50 chance of moving OR shooting extra. and a min squad size of 20 for conscripts.

They probably should get a 6+ save though, the 5+ seems a bit much for a conscript.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.

Other things also need to be nerfed:

Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.

Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.

Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.

So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?

And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?

They'd still see a lot of use with their only thing worse than conscripts being a 6+ save and no grenades while they would be cheaper, have access to special weapons, have a higher leadership and have melee weapons.

Assuming all you were doing was making Cultists into 3pt models, but dropping their WS and BS to 5+...

- Conscripts have a better save
- Conscripts have Grenades
- Conscripts get Orders, so can move twice as fast / shoot twice as much.

Conscripts can get Orders only on a 4+. They literally were given an ability to prevent them from getting them 100% of the time.

Also worth mentioning that quite a few Guard players have suggested they get a 6+ save and the Auxilia faction meaning they just plain old can't get Orders.

- Cultists get 1 'special' weapon per 10 (it's not a good weapon though so barely worth mentioning)
- Slightly better leadership
- Can have melee weapons, but only if you remove their rifles, so again not really worth it the rifles are always a better option.

Cultists have options for Flamers, people seem to like Flamers.

So basically it's slightly better leadership (which conscripts don't need anyway), vs a better save, grenades, and orders. Landslide victory for the conscripts.

Conscripts absolutely do need leadership since Commissars don't give them inherent immunity at the cost of a model. Orders aren't reliable.

This isn't the Index anymore.

I'm sorry, but WHO likes Flamers?

Anyone else read the subject line as 'Guard will continue to be BLAM 'ED?'

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Astra Militarum needs a change to Infantry Squad. Make them 5 pts per model and give them some special rule like Overwatch on 5+ if not moving in previous turn or something.

Other things also need to be nerfed:

Plague Drones. Remove either 5++ or 5+++.

Ravagers. Increase cost or reduce Wounds.

Cultists. Just make them Conscripts with 3 pts per model, WS and BS 5+.

So you want to nerf Cultists, who are already only mediocre?

And you want to do it by making them into Conscripts, except worse?

They'd still see a lot of use with their only thing worse than conscripts being a 6+ save and no grenades while they would be cheaper, have access to special weapons, have a higher leadership and have melee weapons.

Assuming all you were doing was making Cultists into 3pt models, but dropping their WS and BS to 5+...

- Conscripts have a better save
- Conscripts have Grenades
- Conscripts get Orders, so can move twice as fast / shoot twice as much.

Conscripts can get Orders only on a 4+. They literally were given an ability to prevent them from getting them 100% of the time.

Also worth mentioning that quite a few Guard players have suggested they get a 6+ save and the Auxilia faction meaning they just plain old can't get Orders.

- Cultists get 1 'special' weapon per 10 (it's not a good weapon though so barely worth mentioning)
- Slightly better leadership
- Can have melee weapons, but only if you remove their rifles, so again not really worth it the rifles are always a better option.

Cultists have options for Flamers, people seem to like Flamers.

So basically it's slightly better leadership (which conscripts don't need anyway), vs a better save, grenades, and orders. Landslide victory for the conscripts.

Conscripts absolutely do need leadership since Commissars don't give them inherent immunity at the cost of a model. Orders aren't reliable.

This isn't the Index anymore.

50/50 orders are still better than no orders, especially as both units would be the same cost in points so those orders are completely free buffs.

You also get grenades for free, and +1 armour for free. That's quite a lot of free stuff.

Yeh you lose leadership a bit, so you'll lose 2 extra men to morale on average, but then you'll have less people dying because of your better save sometimes so I'm not sure how it'll average out. I'd still say conscripts were a stronger option.

Niiru wrote:

50/50 orders are still better than no orders, especially as both units would be the same cost in points so those orders are completely free buffs.

They're not free. This garbage has to stop being repeated. It costs you the price of an Officer and them being in range to issue Orders. There's no Vox-Caster option for Conscripts so you do have to have an Officer sitting right on top of them.

You also get grenades for free, and +1 armour for free. That's quite a lot of free stuff.

Whoopity freaking doo. Everyone gets grenades effectively for free. Same with going from a 6+ to a 5+.

Yeh you lose leadership a bit, so you'll lose 2 extra men to morale on average, but then you'll have less people dying because of your better save sometimes so I'm not sure how it'll average out. I'd still say conscripts were a stronger option.

It's a 5+ save, not a 3+. Most people aren't going to waste the "Take Cover!" stratagem on Conscripts.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have a CSM handy, but don't Cultists get the same Legion perk as their power armored masters? Can't you have -1 to be hit at 12+ inches Cultists?

Being able to fudge rolls for being hit is a bit better than being able to tank hits when we're talking 5+/6+ saves.

 Xenomancers wrote:
humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

This argument doesn't make sense. For starters, the Fix Bayonets order is rarely usable, since it can only be used in the turn after engaging in melee, a situation in which Guardsmen rarely find themselves both still alive and still in melee.

And in any case, the Genestealers don't cost 300% more if you have to keep 110pts of characters within 6" of the Guardsmen to get the buff. This is like complaining that Basilisks are just 108pts for 3D6-pick-highest shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling misses (because you're Catachan and stuck it next to a Trojan and Harker), or that those Genestealers are just 13pts for a scary melee unit that can literally cross the board in one turn (with an expensive stratagem and specific Hive Fleet), or that Tactical Marines are 13pts for a unit that can re-roll all hits and wounds (because Robot Gundam is sitting next to them). All of those buffs involve faction bonuses, CP, or paying through the nose in points for auras, and are beyond the scope of the base statline. If you're going to assess cost-to-capabilities, you can't ignore the cost of those buffs.

I can understand a realism argument that Guard infantry shouldn't be buffable into serious combatants, and a balance argument if the total package with those characters included overperforms for its cost, but every faction in 8th Ed relies on synergy and buffs, and the Guard take it to an extreme as a matter of design principle.

FWIW I'm okay with Infantry being raised to 5pts, and Straken getting a cost increase or a change to how his buff works, but this '4pts for 3 S4 attacks!' thing is bad analysis. They should perform out of proportion to their base cost when the logistical tail needed to provide that level of performance costs more than the troops themselves, especially when it provides no benefit whatsoever to their durability or firepower.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then what did the model miss?

The rest of the game, the rest of the army, the rest of the potential units available to an army, upgrades, buffs, deployability, positioning, morale. . . etc.

Like my statement further up the thread, Tac marines don't have to beat Guardsmen in a stand up fight to achieve balance. As long as some unit in the codex can be effective against guardsmen in a reasonably attainable situation, then you're good to go.

Well, thankfully for those of us complaining about Guard rofl-stomping everyone in our mostly-mono-build FLGS metas no such unit exists in the Marine codex. ...or anywhere else outside of the DE codex, depending on who you listen to.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes just showing the raw power. Space marines pay a huge tax to get reroll hits and wounds. Straken is cheaper than most space marine HQ options and he buffs infantry hard than Gman buffs anything.

I'm actually not familiar with Strakens buffs, can I get a breakdown?

Edit: Plus the "ever present Priest", whatever he does.

Strakens cost is roughly 75 points I don't remmeber exactly. Hes basically a space marine chaplain (I think invo might be 5++ though) plus he gives 2 orders like a company commander.
Instead of a reroll hits in CC bubble. He gives each catachen unit +1 attack each time it fights. Keep in mind catachans all have str 4 because that is their army trait.

+1 attack for 4 point models is already pretty insane. The combo hasn't even started though. A preist basically has the same +1 attack buff and hes 35 points. Also has a 4++ save but basically sucks otherwise...doesn't matter he costs 35 points.

110 points to get 300% damage in CC out of 4 point units...holy crap. Plus they can fight twice with an order so thats 600% damage increase buff in CC. Throw in harker and they are all rerolling 1's too (most just skip this).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Well, +1 attack boosts those units combat ability by 100% (going from 1 to 2) before potentially adding orders. I don't play catachan so I can't comment on how good it is.

humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

It doesn't take a lot to figure out these guys have insane damage potential. Not trying to be rude but this kind of stuff sickens me. A catachans but spank space marines in CC...why the heck don't they turn these guys into Astartes? The would be primarchs after the augments.

The double fight order does not work due to it's timing.

How many times do you get to shoot in melee with pistols? That's the same number of times that a guard can use the double fight order.

Wth hordes of dudes? Literally every game, You just shoot twice otherwise. It's tomatoes tomatoes.

How can you possibly defend this BS? The ability for a 4 point model to attack 6 times with str 4. Should not exist.

And yet, it does!

The hilarious part is that Knights and Custode Bikes are so egregious that people aren't even talking about this.

We've kind of fallen into 7th edition where there's essentially 4 viable builds.

1. Death Guard. You can take Magnus if you want but he's not required for a godly force. Mortarian is ridiculous.
2. Knights + Guard. People are typically taking the ~300 point variation where they get some extra juice with artillery. I've also seen this work well with Basilisks.
3. Custodes + Guard. Same deal. Can't beat cheap!
4. Ynnari Craftworlds. Ynnari is the crutch that keeps Eldar alive, and this wasn't nerfed (again) so they're still hanging on. The Vect nerf is impactful but people were bringing minimum DE to fuel their Shining Spear + Reaper Ynnari engine anyway.

That's it. If you don't play one of these 4 things, you're on the outside, looking in.

Other armies are all tier 2 or worse compared to this stuff.

Genuinely curious how mono-DG with Morty is so awesome... that way you have no Warptime so he can't make a T1 charge. And even Mortarion will not survive every anti-tank weapon of your opponent being pointed at him. How do you keep him alive? Again, genuinely curious because I've had massive trouble with that.

Effortlessly. You can pass hits off to his bodyguards on 2+ and they come back to life. They're also titan-killers on their own, for the low price of virtually nothing. Additionally after the first turn Mortarian will be -1 to hit, which helps.

Lastly, "mono" lists don't exist unless you don't have the option for soup. There are plenty of other ways to get warp time, although it doesn't hurt to bring Magnus, and it doesn't exactly disrupt your list as Magnus functions on his own very well.

Death Guard are super top tier. They won the BAO for good reason. If you find yourself struggling with them, i would take a long look at some tactics pages and look at what some of the top DG players are doing.

On top of all the defenses he has the biggest boon with Mortarion in the DG list is that losing him isn't the end of the world - if your enemy pumps all of their anti-tank into killing him as fast as possible then you've still got three plagueburst crawlers sitting in the back completely untouched and ready to unleash hell.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Everyone gets grenades effectively for free.

Necrons have zero access to grenades. It's frustrating as hell.

Niiru wrote:
I think that at least part of the problem with Imperial Guard isn't actually that their troops are so cheap.

I mean yes, they are amazing, powerful, and cheap. Fine. But in a pure IG list that's not so terrible.

The problem is how easy it is to add a battallion of IG troops with all their strengths and buffs to any imperial list.

Can this be done with Chaos? Not really. Adding daemon troops to a list is doable, but to do so you have to pay a heavy tax in HQ's. The good HQ's are expensive, and the cheap HQ's are terrible and not even that cheap.
Eldar are in much the same situation, though DE might have a cheap HQ (I only know Eldar and Harlequins, and their HQ's are not cheap).

IG? HQ's are good, and cheap, and make the troops you get significantly better so they're always worth their points.

If IG troops stayed the same price, but the HQ's were raised in points to be more in line with other armies so that the battallion ends up more in line with the cost of battallions from other armies, things might be a bit more balanced.

Basically it ends up coming to the same line of thought that there should be more of a tax or price for taking detachments from other armies. The problem though is that other armies already have to pay this cost, but IG doesn't (or pays much less at least).

Problem is, the way GW fixes things is shown in this new FAQ. They'll make a blanket change that taxes everyone the same, which will still mean that IG will be relatively the cheapest option, and so nothing will change.

And you are wrong, CHAOS can do that, infact chaos can get a cheaper Battalion.

R&H still exist and for 170 pts you can get 2 commanders and 30 cultists. Infact you even can out mortar IG since R&H HWT's with mortars cost less and are 6 per HWT squad.

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura, Catachan is general utility and offensive capability, with no drawback.
It's the same reason you only ever see 2-3 traits in a army. Why would you play WE in the csm Codex when you can field Alpha Legionaires?

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Too many replies to cite if I do so, so just telling what happened in last game. Telling you the whole story.

The RP is warlord. have the Saga of the Hunt, which gives himself advance and charge, and if he made a charge, immediately everyone within 6" of him can also charge after advancing. So I attempted the advance and charge with him and two squad of GH disembarked from the Rhino. His company comander is hiding behind the squad of course and I noticed his Company Comander can interven, but of course I didn't read this post AND of course didn't investigate in IG close combat buffing ability carefully, thus what I don't know is how powerful his company comander can be in combat. So I think: yea he might intervene and shove Three Powerfist attack on the Runepriest, hitting on 4s wounding on 3s, and I have runic armor for 5++, 2 rounds of attacks shouldn't kill me unless the dice rolls are extreme, and I decided to advance and charge in, because I need that Warlord Trait bonus for everyone, and I need to silence his Self Propelled Artilery behind his infantry line asap, at Turn 2 latest!! But after he interven and show me how he gets as many attacks as Arjac, Bjorn, Logan Grimnar, Dante and Marnus Calgar each time he fight, I was truely shocked. But the trap had already sprang.

Were you so scared of his laspistol overwatch that you didn't bother to put him as charge target as well in case he intervenes? After all you don't lose anything except you take that 1 S3 AP0 D1 shot that hits on 6+. Weee!

Generally if overwatch isn't worry it's often good idea to charge multiple anyway. That way if you fail charge range against longer one you might at least get to closer target. Or try primary safe one and try longshot long one in case you get lucky.

Why you would let anybody give at you free power fist attacks when you could just aim to kill it before it strikes...You charge, he intervenes, you attack and likely kill the company commander. The mere fact he's sporting power fist means he could kill you with some lucky dice rolling. Why give him chance? Kill him before striking at you. If he's close enough to attack you so are you to kill him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
humm - how good are geensteelers? They cost 13 and have 4 str 4 ap-1 attacks (if they are over 10 man squads). IG catachans cost 4 points and have 6 str 4 attacks under these buffs. Or in other words they have 50% more attacks than geenstellers which costs 300% more.

This argument doesn't make sense. For starters, the Fix Bayonets order is rarely usable, since it can only be used in the turn after engaging in melee, a situation in which Guardsmen rarely find themselves both still alive and still in melee.

And in any case, the Genestealers don't cost 300% more if you have to keep 110pts of characters within 6" of the Guardsmen to get the buff. This is like complaining that Basilisks are just 108pts for 3D6-pick-highest shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling misses (because you're Catachan and stuck it next to a Trojan and Harker), or that those Genestealers are just 13pts for a scary melee unit that can literally cross the board in one turn (with an expensive stratagem and specific Hive Fleet), or that Tactical Marines are 13pts for a unit that can re-roll all hits and wounds (because Robot Gundam is sitting next to them). All of those buffs involve faction bonuses, CP, or paying through the nose in points for auras, and are beyond the scope of the base statline. If you're going to assess cost-to-capabilities, you can't ignore the cost of those buffs.

I can understand a realism argument that Guard infantry shouldn't be buffable into serious combatants, and a balance argument if the total package with those characters included overperforms for its cost, but every faction in 8th Ed relies on synergy and buffs, and the Guard take it to an extreme as a matter of design principle.

FWIW I'm okay with Infantry being raised to 5pts, and Straken getting a cost increase or a change to how his buff works, but this '4pts for 3 S4 attacks!' thing is bad analysis. They should perform out of proportion to their base cost when the logistical tail needed to provide that level of performance costs more than the troops themselves, especially when it provides no benefit whatsoever to their durability or firepower.

And last time I checked guardsmen don't sport inv save, hit on 3+, have -1 save(some at -4), advance and charge and generally cannot do T1 charges by sprinting faster than jet.

tneva82 wrote:
And last time I checked guardsmen don't sport inv save, hit on 3+, have -1 save(some at -4), advance and charge and generally cannot do T1 charges by sprinting faster than jet.

They are also only 4 points. Saying the tail is fine - but its not as if unsupported Genestealers are all that great. Armies depend on synergy to work.

Okay, you have to factor it in. You can get stupid scenarios where people will say "my 100 points beats that 100 points, because it gets this buff, and that buff, and this psychic power and and and". Clearly at this stage you are not comparing apples with oranges.

Although if - in game - those buffs and interactions typically occur they are a valid consideration for how that unit would function in game. No one to my knowledge for instance runs unsupported Beil-Tan Shining Spears, and if you do, I admire your dedication to your ex-Craftworld. If unit X is too good with unit/ability Y and nothing stops you taking them together one or both needs to change.

As it is guardsmen start off as an excellent unit without external buffs. The guard tail is also - contrary to some claims - relatively cheap. You don't have to take a priest - but he isn't that expensive, and he fills out your brigade. You don't have to take Straken, but you do have to take some HQ choices. You could cut them out and put the points to use elsewhere - but what would that be?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the problem is hardly with HQ but more along the line of the traits. Cadia is basically a free reroll aura

Correcting a misconception. No, this is not the case.

Yeah you can get rerolling hit rolls of 1 with no penalty, but anything else requires you to issue the "Take Aim!" Order to a unit, which means no FRFSRF or M^3, or whatever else. Not unless you give your Warlord a specific Relic and Warlord Trait(none of which are the CP regeneration ones mind you) where on a 4+ you can chain a second Order to the same unit(Relic) and on a 4+ you can chain the Order issued to a second unit of the same type(Infantry or Tank).