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Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

I think 10 snipers get him without any buffs, math-wise.

Yes, that was no buffs. For either model being shot at.

Edit: Captain was assumed to be Raven, though.

But since snipers are so godawful in a general sense, the IG character is safe for the most part. And if not, it's a 30 pt sacrifice. Having next to nothing invested in each model is so powerful.

Max of three company commanders. Lose them, and lose your orders.

I can't afford to fall all over myself hunting down 3 dum dums when I"ve got manticores and gak raining death on me. It's just the 30 pts that breaks the camel's back.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

Too bad then if you play an army that doesn't have snipers?

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

Too bad then if you play an army that doesn't have snipers?

That's effectively everyone atm.

Everyone but Imperium and Eldar.

Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Vindicare Assassin.

Martel732 wrote:
"I pay those 30 points, he's literally just there to shout at people."

And hold objectives protected by the magical character force field. No character should only cost 30 pts with that rule in effect.

If they're doing that without anything else also being close enough to hold it, then they're not issuing orders either. There's a number of other characters that don't cost much more that can do largely the same thing.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What else are you supposed to use for issuing Orders, Commissars? Primaris Psykers? Tank Commanders?

Platoon Commanders (which should be a HQ choice.)

That'd make creating cheap Guard CP battery detachments even easier...

If the rules are built so that they encourage you to bring multiple Company Commanders over Platoon Commanders, then the rules are fethed up. It's like when people always brought Chapter Masters in previous editions because they were just flat out better than Captains at a negligible cost.

Ultimately, I think the Platoon Commander is something of a redundant holdover unit from the Troops Platoon structure of previous editions. They were never available outside of that structure before, and even then only embedded within a command squad who's primary value was more in the quad special weapons they bore than anything the Platoon Commander was doing. Right now they serve to fill out Elites slots on Brigade detachments, but don't really have a distinct role otherwise. There just isn't a need for multiple levels of officer, particularly when detachments require you to take multiple HQ's in the first place.

Martel732 wrote:
It also presupposes that the SM LT actualy can do something with the stats. In practice it just gets run over by shining spears like a company commander.

With the FAQ change he shouldn't be getting picked out quite so easily going forward, and most characters of that nature aren't going to win going mano-a-mano with a dedicated CC unit all on their lonesome.

"With the FAQ change he shouldn't be getting picked out quite so easily going forward, and most characters of that nature aren't going to win going mano-a-mano with a dedicated CC unit all on their lonesome."

Exactly. So paying as little as possible is good. Since your character won't win anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
"With the FAQ change he shouldn't be getting picked out quite so easily going forward, and most characters of that nature aren't going to win going mano-a-mano with a dedicated CC unit all on their lonesome."

Exactly. So paying as little as possible is good. Since your character won't win anyway.

Just because a Space Marine LT can't (and isn't intended to) defeat a dedicated heavy CC unit one-on-one doesn't mean that extra combat ability is worthless.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

Say that to AdMech or Necrons. Preferably from somewhere completely out of LoS. Oh wait, the Necron snipers also have Deep Strike.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"With the FAQ change he shouldn't be getting picked out quite so easily going forward, and most characters of that nature aren't going to win going mano-a-mano with a dedicated CC unit all on their lonesome."

Exactly. So paying as little as possible is good. Since your character won't win anyway.

Just because a Space Marine LT can't (and isn't intended to) defeat a dedicated heavy CC unit one-on-one doesn't mean that extra combat ability is worthless.

I've used them a lot. As a BA LT, even. They are pretty damn useless in CC. If you use them in a gun castle, they never punch. If you go out and punch, you aren't buffing enough units. The aura scheme is bad and GW should feel bad. BA characters not named capt smash are godawful for their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

Say that to AdMech or Necrons. Preferably from somewhere completely out of LoS. Oh wait, the Necron snipers also have Deep Strike.

I don't think their snipers are good, either. Maybe admech. Maybe.

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

Say that to AdMech or Necrons. Preferably from somewhere completely out of LoS. Oh wait, the Necron snipers also have Deep Strike.

You... are aware that Deathmark guns are 24" rapid fire, right? If you actually allowed them to double tap your backline buffer HQ you absolutely deserved to lose that game.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"With the FAQ change he shouldn't be getting picked out quite so easily going forward, and most characters of that nature aren't going to win going mano-a-mano with a dedicated CC unit all on their lonesome."

Exactly. So paying as little as possible is good. Since your character won't win anyway.

Just because a Space Marine LT can't (and isn't intended to) defeat a dedicated heavy CC unit one-on-one doesn't mean that extra combat ability is worthless.

I've used them a lot. As a BA LT, even. They are pretty damn useless in CC. If you use them in a gun castle, they never punch. If you go out and punch, you aren't buffing enough units. The aura scheme is bad and GW should feel bad. BA characters not named capt smash are godawful for their points.

They could probably use a points decrease, I'm not saying they're great as is currently, but rather that the standard to which their value is measured can't be soloing dedicated heavy CC units, because that's never been the role or purpose of such units really. They're there to support the other units in the army (which should include supplemental CC hitting power), not to be a purpose-built CC monster all on their own.

I'm just saying what happens in practice. Which is how units need to be priced. They contribute to a castle, or go punch. Not both. They are priced to do both, and they can't. Standard marine problem.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just saying what happens in practice. Which is how units need to be priced. They contribute to a castle, or go punch. Not both. They are priced to do both, and they can't. Standard marine problem.

Indeed. That's been the problem with the MEQ statline for 20 years.

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

They’re a bit cheaper, I think. That’s about it.

Vindicare beats their special sniper hands down.

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

Eldar Rangers have access to the Alaitoc trait(-1 to be hit at 12" or further) and their Camoleoline Cloaks grant an additional -1 to be hit and +2 to saving throws while in Cover.

Plus there's a stratagem that does something I don't recall offhand.

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

Eldar Rangers have access to the Alaitoc trait(-1 to be hit at 12" or further) and their Camoleoline Cloaks grant an additional -1 to be hit and +2 to saving throws while in Cover.

Plus there's a stratagem that does something I don't recall offhand.

There's another -1 to be hit (Lightning Reflexes, I think?) and an "Only be hit on 6s" strat.

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

Eldar Rangers have access to the Alaitoc trait(-1 to be hit at 12" or further) and their Camoleoline Cloaks grant an additional -1 to be hit and +2 to saving throws while in Cover.

Plus there's a stratagem that does something I don't recall offhand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Raven Guard scouts do exactly the same thing? They have camo cloaks as well for that +2 cover.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

Eldar Rangers have access to the Alaitoc trait(-1 to be hit at 12" or further) and their Camoleoline Cloaks grant an additional -1 to be hit and +2 to saving throws while in Cover.

Plus there's a stratagem that does something I don't recall offhand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Raven Guard scouts do exactly the same thing? They have camo cloaks as well for that +2 cover.

Raven Guard, period, get access to a -1 to be hit at 12" or further.
Marine camo cloaks grant just the bonus to saving throws, no penalties to Hit rolls for targeting them.

But at T4 2+ as compared to T3 3+ (or is it 4+? Are Rangers 5+ or 6+ base?), even with a lesser hit penalty, is still pretty good.

Rangers are 5+ base at 12 pts
Scout with sniper is 15pts

so 3 points buys you +1 save, +1 toughness. Given that Rangers are harder to hit, but when they are hit, die easier it sounds like a fair trade off

 Marmatag wrote:
Nah the better answer is that Guard should just be appropriately costed. 6ppm Guardsmen 5ppm Conscripts. Then no one cares if they use Guard as a battery for CP as they're balanced with the rest of the troops out there.

Sheesh that would make guardsmen equal point with stuff that outshoots them and outtoughs them. Oh yeah. Let's have extra range, +1S,4+ save for free. Yeah. That's balanced. Or howabout equal to somebody hitting on 3+ and wounding every infantry on 4+. Yep yep. Completely equal.

Why not just say "I want GW to kill IG from the game" since that's what you are proposing? At least be honest with your motivations.

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

They get used. That's basically it. I'm guessing its because they fill out minimal troops effectively. Imperials can go with bolter scouts and get even cheaper. There's no way sniper scouts are worth 15 ppm. Maybe Eldar scouts aren't worth 12 ppm, but they seem to get used a lot more.

They are all a terrible way to get rid of a 30 pt model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Rangers are 5+ base at 12 pts
Scout with sniper is 15pts

so 3 points buys you +1 save, +1 toughness. Given that Rangers are harder to hit, but when they are hit, die easier it sounds like a fair trade off

It would be if they cost the same.

Scouts are technically cheaper, it's just the sniper that puts them over.