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 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalites don't get orders, or the same level of synergy. And you know it. Guardsmen would still be immensely popular at 6ppm.

Even with orders, kabalites are better than 6ppm guardsmen. You do realize skitarii rangers are stormtroopers with 30" bolters that explode on sixes, a 6++, and more movement for 7ppm right?

Guardsmen are worth 5ppm, nothing more.

Skitarii don't have access to orders.

But other threads have discussed the duality of infantry in the game. If compared to marines, guardsmen are 6-7 ppm. Rangers, 5 ppm.

Martel732 wrote:
Skitarii don't have access to orders.

And mono-guard don't have access to auras outside of a couple of catachan special characters and priests. Orders are IG auras, they are stronger with the tradeoff of being only able to affect 1-2 units at a time, and each unit can only have 1 order active (unless you have a particular relic).

Martel732 wrote:
But other threads have discussed the duality of infantry in the game. If compared to marines, guardsmen are 6-7 ppm. Rangers, 5 ppm.

Marines shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for balance, they are woefully underpowered. Guardsmen should be compared against other viable light/medium infantry like kabalites, fire warriors, skitarii rangers, etc. Almost anything looks good when you compare it to a tac marine.

Tac marines have company. Guardians, necron warriors, other Eldar elite infantry. There is definitely a duality of infantry in the game.

I consider rangers just about the best designed infantry.

Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Refunding/stealing CP is a problem across all armies but worse in the guard as they can take both and I'll freely admit it was a problem. GW has now addressed it.

But why are people still banging the drum that guard are the problem when it was quite blatant that the stuff being buffed by the guard CP farm was the problem? I doubt that this conversation would still be going if the CP costs were their adjusted values at launch while the castellan was 700pts+.

But no, let's still carp on about how guard out shoot, out survive and out every other infantry choice in game. Even though they have to be in a certain situation to use them and can only receive one order a turn unless a warlord trait or relic is used (which might be the case now!)

Or are people still salty that their MSU infantry get out shot by full 10 man squads and can survive due to the new AP system being much fairer than the auto kill no saves allowed stupidity from 3rd to 7th?

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

I run 8 IS in a 2k point list, that isn't even infantry skew, and 6 point guardsmen would up my infantry cost by 160 points lol

Imagine the poor fethers that run 12+ IS at 2k points...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Imperium doesn't have them, practically speaking. Bobby G does. I forgot about Eldar. They do.

Not having an Eldar codex yet, what do their snipers do that that sets them apart from the Imperials you dismiss?

Eldar Rangers have access to the Alaitoc trait(-1 to be hit at 12" or further) and their Camoleoline Cloaks grant an additional -1 to be hit and +2 to saving throws while in Cover.

Plus there's a stratagem that does something I don't recall offhand.

There's another -1 to be hit (Lightning Reflexes, I think?) and an "Only be hit on 6s" strat.

Almost correct there is alaitoc ranger stratagem for 1cp make them -1 and if you pay 2 pts for lighting fast, you can make them -4. But most eldar players wont pay CP to protect rangers and usually they have very low target priority, with +3 str weapon you can hardly call them good snipers. Most eldar players will gladly replace rangers with 4pts units that can soulburst. Guardians 12 range, guards 24 range omegalul.

I find it interesting Dakka has this strange love of Skitarii Rangers when their meta impact is zero.

Principally because - drum roll - the crappy HQ options.
You can either take a 47 point nearly totally useless Engineseer (guess you can repair Guard tanks or put a wound back on a knight if you have any - he's not helping the rangers at all though), or an extremely expensive Dominus (120-130~ points with mandatory items if I remember?)

This tax really weighs against the units.

By contrast 30 point company commanders are cheap slot fillers - which any DE player would enviously tell you is a perk all its own - and are a massive buff on an already excellent units. Or you can take similarly cheap psykers.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Funny thing is it would hurt more mono guard than soup that would basically shrug it off.

Let that sink in. They are claiming MONO IG is bigger issue than Imperial soup. That's right. According to them mono IG is the ultimate uber cheese that outclass combination of best of the best Imperium can offer in combined soup.

How anybody can think of that...

If you want to nerf soup howabout nerf the soup?

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Funny thing is it would hurt more mono guard than soup that would basically shrug it off.

Let that sink in. They are claiming MONO IG is bigger issue than Imperial soup. That's right. According to them mono IG is the ultimate uber cheese that outclass combination of best of the best Imperium can offer in combined soup.

How anybody can think of that...

If you want to nerf soup howabout nerf the soup?

They aren't 6ppm but neither are they 4ppm units.
At 5ppm they are a lot closer to balanced than they are currently, but additionally if the ammount of CP they generate can't be addressed as some people claim it hurts mono guard more than soup, then they are worth more than 5ppm to a imperium army.

And the 5ppm hurts mono guard waaaaaaaaay more than soup. Soup barely notices it. Mono guard(oh yeah that dominating build with 200+ IG soldiers are everywhere right?) gets hurt lot more.

People keep claimin soup is the problem yet are firing all cylinders nerfing mono guard rather than soup. True GW style!

Tyel wrote:
I find it interesting Dakka has this strange love of Skitarii Rangers when their meta impact is zero.

It's not Dakka. It always comes down to certain individuals when it fits their nonsense.

By contrast 30 point company commanders are cheap slot fillers - which any DE player would enviously tell you is a perk all its own - and are a massive buff on an already excellent units. Or you can take similarly cheap psykers.

30 point Company Commanders also contribute nothing except their buff to two units at a time.

 Kanluwen wrote:
30 point Company Commanders also contribute nothing except their buff to two units at a time.

Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Refunding/stealing CP is a problem across all armies but worse in the guard as they can take both and I'll freely admit it was a problem. GW has now addressed it.

But why are people still banging the drum that guard are the problem when it was quite blatant that the stuff being buffed by the guard CP farm was the problem? I doubt that this conversation would still be going if the CP costs were their adjusted values at launch while the castellan was 700pts+.

But no, let's still carp on about how guard out shoot, out survive and out every other infantry choice in game. Even though they have to be in a certain situation to use them and can only receive one order a turn unless a warlord trait or relic is used (which might be the case now!)

Or are people still salty that their MSU infantry get out shot by full 10 man squads and can survive due to the new AP system being much fairer than the auto kill no saves allowed stupidity from 3rd to 7th?

I've seen 4pt models commanded by 30 pt models do too much stuff that much more expensive models can not.

tneva82 wrote:
And the 5ppm hurts mono guard waaaaaaaaay more than soup. Soup barely notices it. Mono guard(oh yeah that dominating build with 200+ IG soldiers are everywhere right?) gets hurt lot more.

People keep claimin soup is the problem yet are firing all cylinders nerfing mono guard rather than soup. True GW style!

Even Guard players bar the minority who are just anti anything that might effect guard admit that infantry are 5ppm.

You either balance codex to codex and limit the interactions of soup, or you balance at the topp level keywords.

In a codex to codex comparison bar the Aeldari cheese (which GW will never balance) guard are a top tier codex which lost very little from FAQ2 and gained alot. In this model they very much are worth 5ppm.

The alternative is you balance at Imperium, Choas and Aeldari keywords, in that meta infantry squads are probably too cheap even at 5ppm and are worth probably 6 or possibly even more points each because of them having a higher value individualy when you are only taking the minimum you need to achive their task of Cp and back field screening.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Funny thing is it would hurt more mono guard than soup that would basically shrug it off.

Let that sink in. They are claiming MONO IG is bigger issue than Imperial soup. That's right. According to them mono IG is the ultimate uber cheese that outclass combination of best of the best Imperium can offer in combined soup.

How anybody can think of that...

If you want to nerf soup howabout nerf the soup?

Imperial soup is driven by cheap IG troops. It is the source of all problems.

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
30 point Company Commanders also contribute nothing except their buff to two units at a time.

Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Funny thing is it would hurt more mono guard than soup that would basically shrug it off.

Let that sink in. They are claiming MONO IG is bigger issue than Imperial soup. That's right. According to them mono IG is the ultimate uber cheese that outclass combination of best of the best Imperium can offer in combined soup.

How anybody can think of that...

If you want to nerf soup howabout nerf the soup?

Imperial soup is driven by cheap IG troops. It is the source of all problems.

Imperial soup is driven by there being no drawback/ negative to souping. Even if you removed IG 100% from the game you will still see 9/10 imperium armies being comprised of soup. Whenever you can take options from another book not available to your own codex with zero negatives it will be the more competitive option. Keep nerfing the FOTM choice for soup and soup players will simply move on to the next option meanwhile mono players have their army completely broken. Fix soup and you will have a nice mix of both soup and mono builds leading to more list diversity in the game

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

I'd hope so given he costs almost as much as 25 guardsmen on top of a company commander.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it takes only 10 Scouts with Sniper Rifles to one-round a Company Commander.

It takes 48 to do the same to a terminator captain.

This would matter if snipers were viable in a general sense. Being buffed up by Bobby G doesn't count, and never has.

Say that to AdMech or Necrons. Preferably from somewhere completely out of LoS. Oh wait, the Necron snipers also have Deep Strike.

You... are aware that Deathmark guns are 24" rapid fire, right? If you actually allowed them to double tap your backline buffer HQ you absolutely deserved to lose that game.

The game where that came up somebody dropped two squads of the things and then rolled a lot of 6s to-wound. It was the first time I'd ever seen them so it made an impression.

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

I'd hope so given he costs almost as much as 25 guardsmen on top of a company commander.

But that's not what your argument was. You said:

Tyel wrote:Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

He's an example of "most of the non-psychic characters in the game" that contribute FAR more than "nothing but their buff".

I ask again: What the hell do people expect Guard Company Commanders to contribute? Their wargear options are pathetic and even decked out with melee gear, they just aren't capable of doing much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

I'd hope so given he costs almost as much as 25 guardsmen on top of a company commander.

But that's not what your argument was. You said:

Tyel wrote:Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

He's an example of "most of the non-psychic characters in the game" that contribute FAR more than "nothing but their buff".

I ask again: What the hell do people expect Guard Company Commanders to contribute? Their wargear options are pathetic and even decked out with melee gear, they just aren't capable of doing much.

"Most"

36 extra shots. For 30 pts. That's what. I do it all the time. It's not fair, but I use it anyway.

 DrGiggles wrote:

"Most"

And yet there's a lot more characters that grant something other than "just their buffs"(which I might add [i]are specifically targeted to a single unit and they cannot overlay additional "buffs" without a specific Relic/Warlord Trait setup) when talking about things.

Counter proposal:

Keep IG prices on infantry the same.

Ban FRFSRF.

Make get back in the fight identical to UM chapter tactic.

This solves 80% of the objections I've heard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Marine Captain rocking a jump pack and a Thunder Hammer contributes a hell of a lot more than his buff.

I'd hope so given he costs almost as much as 25 guardsmen on top of a company commander.

But that's not what your argument was. You said:

Tyel wrote:Most of the non-psychic characters in the game contribute nothing but their buff. They are still twice or more as much.

He's an example of "most of the non-psychic characters in the game" that contribute FAR more than "nothing but their buff".

I ask again: What the hell do people expect Guard Company Commanders to contribute? Their wargear options are pathetic and even decked out with melee gear, they just aren't capable of doing much.

CC's synergize well with Infantry Squads while costing almost nothing. FRFSRF and MMM are more then worth having even on bog standard 10 basic Guardsman.

The next cheapest Imperial Battalion is AdMech and then your paying 50% more for mandatory HQ choices with completely no synergy at all to their troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Counter proposal:

Keep IG prices on infantry the same.

Ban FRFSRF.

Make get back in the fight identical to UM chapter tactic.

This solves 80% of the objections I've heard.

Does nothing to make IG the best and only option for adding CP to an army.

I don't really care about that. I care about 4 ppm models backed up 30 point models punching WAY ABOVE their cost. Cheaper is going to be better in 8th almost by default. But we can make can control the degree.

Martel732 wrote:
36 extra shots. For 30 pts. That's what. I do it all the time. It's not fair, but I use it anyway.

Under optimal conditions that requires specifc positioning of at least 4 distinct units (the officer, two Infantry Squads assumed to be at full strength both within orders range of the officer, and at least one target unit in optimal rapid fire doubletap range), firing what is the weakest basic weapon in the game.

Is that the hardest thing in the world to set up? No, but it's not just an automatic "hey 36 extra shots" either.

That said, if they changed it back to just one extra shot instead of doubling the RF value, I wouldn't cry, though GW appears to want to use FRFSRF to highlight their new RF mechanic as it doesnt pop up too much elsewhere aside from Stormbolters.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Are people on drugs in this thread?

Guardsmen at 6-7ppm? The feth?

Let's be honest here - that is cloud cuckoo stuff. Why should the mono guard players be forced to pay 60-90pts more because tournament players took them to supercharge a broken Knight model and a CP intense HQ character?

Funny thing is it would hurt more mono guard than soup that would basically shrug it off.

Let that sink in. They are claiming MONO IG is bigger issue than Imperial soup. That's right. According to them mono IG is the ultimate uber cheese that outclass combination of best of the best Imperium can offer in combined soup.

How anybody can think of that...

If you want to nerf soup howabout nerf the soup?

Imperial soup is driven by cheap IG troops. It is the source of all problems.

Imperial soup is driven by there being no drawback/ negative to souping. Even if you removed IG 100% from the game you will still see 9/10 imperium armies being comprised of soup. Whenever you can take options from another book not available to your own codex with zero negatives it will be the more competitive option. Keep nerfing the FOTM choice for soup and soup players will simply move on to the next option meanwhile mono players have their army completely broken. Fix soup and you will have a nice mix of both soup and mono builds leading to more list diversity in the game

Yeah but you wont see it dominating as hard. IG gives you more CP-more bodies-more shots - for less. It is a big deal. I'm not opposed to some negative for soup. In my CP proposal allied detachments cost you CP.

First - AM infantry/CC need to be put in line with other troops units and cheap HQ's - currently they are well above the bar - 5 points and 40 points respectively and they are still top tier. This change would dramatically fix the broken nature of soup - it would still be broken but it would be a lot better.

Those changes are required simply from a game balance prospective not even addressing command points. However - a change to the command point system would also hugely benefit the game. A system in which gives all armies fair access to CP (meaning without taking allies) is REQUIRED for a fair game experience.

 Ordana wrote:
CC's synergize well with Infantry Squads

Given that the only function of a Company Commander is buffing infantry, I'd certainly hope they'd synergise with them.