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And why would Perpetual Oll Persson's memories be flawed? He went back in time to Verdun and saw a journal he wrote. And eyewitness testimony is contradictory because oftentimes people see different things, and see different people for serial killer suspect (though I'm not an expert)s. And Gaslighting is manipulating memories. And why would the Emperor lie? Very few people know or even care about Old Earth. I just showed a quote and link for Perpetual Oll Persson from Mark of Calth.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx

And memory is almost always right.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

Bro, this is a major fallacy I run into all the time as an attorney. Peoples memories are no always right, I'd give it closer to a 50/50 for something unless it is very important or recorded in another way which helps reinforce memories. The fact that people put so much stock into peoples memories when the average person probably can't remember what they ate on monday is something that I've found funny/frustrating depending on context.

Onething123456 wrote:
And why would Perpetual Oll Persson's memories be flawed?

Because he's incredibly old, and because memory is subject to personal bias, lapses in observation, confusion with other memories, outside manipulation or plain and simply forgetting bits, all of which become an increasingly larger problem the older the memory is.

 insaniak wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And why would Perpetual Oll Persson's memories be flawed?

Because he's incredibly old, and because memory is subject to personal bias, lapses in observation, confusion with other memories, outside manipulation or plain and simply forgetting bits, all of which become an increasingly larger problem the older the memory is.

Unfortunately for you, Mark of Calth shows him traveling back in time to places such as Verdun and seeing things like a journal he wrote at Verdun.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Andykp wrote:
Very few people have total recall and in most cases it’s in a specific type of memory such as written text and things. And quite often those people are deficient in other psychological ways like empathy and understanding, some even argue that is a place on the autistic spectrum. I for one don’t know enough about it but when I was university 20 years ago studying anatomy the mechanics of how memories are formed was beginning to seen but was a long way from being understood. The different types and the different mechanisms. Trying to say a made up type of immortal humans memory would function this way or that is a massive leap of logic.

Onthing, memories are more often inaccurate than they are right. That is why eye witness statements and first person recollections of events aren’t considered too highly evidentiary. So many factors contribute to a memory that they are very very unreliable.

Which is why I said 'not in all cases' We manage to create memory banks here in this century with the internet, so memory has little to do with it. If we don't have access to technology then memory is an issue. If something is done and not seen we all have the ability to say 'that can't be trusted.' Did Donald Trump win the election, yeah we can prove that to the point of incontrovertible fact.

Onething123456 wrote:

Unfortunately for you, Mark of Calth shows him traveling back in time to places such as Verdun and seeing things like a journal he wrote at Verdun.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

.
So? You know what a journal is? It's a collection of memories, written down. As such, it's still subject to all of the problems I listed, and adds in a random factor based on just how skilled a writer the creator of the journal may be, and the potential misinterpretations that come from reading it later.


Memory is far from reliable, even when it is written down.

At least a few times a year, I'll be with friends, and somebody will crack a familiar sounding joke. I'll ask who originally said that, and it turns out to be me.

I don't think I have an unusually bad memory, but I there is a ton of stuff I can't recall from my own personal history.

We have memory problems no, so history is what we make of it in spite of that, the Imperium is not exempt from those problems, I don't know why we are arguing about memory.

And you know he wrote a journal at Verdun as he travelled back in time to Verdun? And FYI, he wrote that journal at Verdun about things happening in the war. Are you saying he never sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, never fought at Verdun, never fought at 73 Easting, and so on?

On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Onething123456 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Exactly, they know virtually nothing,

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Exactly, they know virtually nothing,

You should read Mark of Calth if you have not.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Pretty sure I just covered the pitfalls of understanding history in a succinct manner?

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Exactly, they know virtually nothing,

You should read Mark of Calth if you have not.

They are perpetuals in Mark of Calth...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.

Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,

Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.

Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.

Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?

One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?

Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?

What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

Exactly, they know virtually nothing,

You should read Mark of Calth if you have not.

They are perpetuals in Mark of Calth...

Yes.

Can we all please knock off the giant wall-of-multi-quote replies, particularly if you're just responding with a one word post?

At the very least, Spoiler it if you absolutely must quote it.

 insaniak wrote:
Can we all please knock off the giant wall-of-multi-quote replies, particularly if you're just responding with a one word post?

At the very least, Spoiler it if you absolutely must quote it.

Sure.

So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.



And perpetuals are silly.

Andykp wrote:
So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.



And perpetuals are silly.

You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.



And perpetuals are silly.

You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.

Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.



And perpetuals are silly.

You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.

Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?

They are still cannon. But exactly, its not silly at all.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.



And perpetuals are silly.

You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.

Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?

They are still cannon. But exactly, its not silly at all.

No more silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader as champions of the Star Child making Warhammer Brighthammer.

Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They were champions of the Star Child in 1st Edition Rogue Trader making Warhammer Brighthammer.

Realm of chaos lost and damned. They were his descendants, Champions of the starchild. Fighting the evil Sir nose.

Andykp wrote:
Realm of chaos lost and damned. They were his descendants, Champions of the starchild. Fighting the evil Sir nose.

Write it correctly. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned , in caps with a colon and so on. I know I don't always write correctly, but I make sure to do so with books.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOST-and-the-DAMNED-SLAVES-to-DARKNESS-Realm-of-Chaos-Wahammer-WFRP-40k-GW/132756831637?hash=item1ee8ec7d95:gfIAAOSwtLxbgINn

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-And-The-Damned-Realm-Of-Chaos-Book-/263979127177

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Realm-of-Chaos-the-Lost-and-the-Damned-HB-Warhammer-40kRPG-SOTDL-WFRP-OSR-/202463265789

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Realm of chaos lost and damned. They were his descendants, Champions of the starchild. Fighting the evil Sir nose.

Write it correctly. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned , in caps with a colon and so on. I know I don't always write correctly, but I make sure to do so with books.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOST-and-the-DAMNED-SLAVES-to-DARKNESS-Realm-of-Chaos-Wahammer-WFRP-40k-GW/132756831637?hash=item1ee8ec7d95:gfIAAOSwtLxbgINn

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-And-The-Damned-Realm-Of-Chaos-Book-/263979127177

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Realm-of-Chaos-the-Lost-and-the-Damned-HB-Warhammer-40kRPG-SOTDL-WFRP-OSR-/202463265789

I’m ok thanks. Realm of chaos lost and the damned will do me fine. No need for eBay links either. I’ve still got all my old Warhammer 40000:Rogue Trader books.

(Tried it the and it’s a no from me. I’ll books names how ever I like still).

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.

The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.

They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.

Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.