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With the new black legion novels stating Abaddon was the same height as Horus and him beating the clone without the powers of Chaos at the time and the new awesome Abaddon stat line in the game. Do you think he actually is a clone. I'd prefer it, especially with the return of the Primarchs, Abaddon being the warmaster wouldn't cut it if he couldn't take on the Primarchs, I also like it from a loyalist perspective, he's the big bad guy, you should have a challenge against taking him out.

Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

He is, he can take on Guilliman with his new rules. The only thing we need is a new model for his badassness.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

He is, he can take on Guilliman with his new rules. The only thing we need is a new model for his badassness.

Oh agreed. He's needed a new model for so many years it's not funny!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

He is, he can take on Guilliman with his new rules. The only thing we need is a new model for his badassness.

Oh agreed. He's needed a new model for so many years it's not funny!

Its annoying because they could have given him one during the gathering storm triumvirate, we could have done without the inquisitor.

I actually like that we got a female inquisitor in plastic. If anything felt unnecessarily included model wise, it was Voldus and fluff wise it was Cypher.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually like that we got a female inquisitor in plastic. If anything felt unnecessarily included model wise, it was Voldus and fluff wise it was Cypher.

Yeah but we got eisenhorn, she could have waited. Abaddon needed done before an Inquisitor, regardless of the sex. I mean it was his crowning moment, he finally took the gate the the materium and we got an inquisitor instead, such bs. It was just GW trying to bring out a female model for all the unreasonable moaners that think women are somehow underrepresented in the game.

Why would there be a Chaos character in an Imperium box?!

It would make more sense for Abaddon to have been instead of Eisenhorn.

Though, there is sort of a new Abaddon model from FW...

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would there be a Chaos character in an Imperium box?!

It would make more sense for Abaddon to have been instead of Eisenhorn.

Though, there is sort of a new Abaddon model from FW...

They could have have released a chaos triumvirate along with the other two. It was odd to have just 3 good guys triumvirates and no chaos one. They could have released a cool new character like Erebus and Urkrathos.

They could have released Abaddon with the Codex 6th edition. Or with the Black Legion supplement. Or with Black Legion supplement 2. Or with Traitor Legions. Or with Gathering Storm. Or with Codex 8th edition.
They didn't though and Greyfax is the last to blame for that. She's actually more interesting than the whole Primaris line for example.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They could have released Abaddon with the Codex 6th edition. Or with the Black Legion supplement. Or with Black Legion supplement 2. Or with Traitor Legions. Or with Gathering Storm. Or with Codex 8th edition.
They didn't though and Greyfax is the last to blame for that. She's actually more interesting than the whole Primaris line for example.

Abaddon is more interesting than the whole Primaris line Greyfax and all the other triumvirates.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

No he didn't. Abaddon didn't beat the clone, he brought around 100 marines to fight the clone which were mostly shot to pieces, and Abaddon himself only killed the clone because the clone tried to earn Abaddon's fealty. Abaddon then sucker-punched the clone with the Talon and blew open its hearts. And that's ignoring the fact the clone would be soulless and lack the metaphysical aspects that make a Primarch a Primarch. If Chaos actually wants to take on Guilliman, all Khorne or Slaanesh needs to do is send Angron or Fulgrim after him - who are both more than a match for Abaddon or Guilliman.

I'm not sure i've ever read Abaddon is the same height as Horus, even in the new Black Legion novels.

I also thought it was pretty strange how he killed Horus with relative 'ease', though Wyzilla's explanation I think is a compelling one.

I don't think it was with relative ease, I'm not sure that Wyzilla's recollection is 100% accurate but neither is the 1 v 1. It was definitely a group effort and I think at least Khayon, Firefist and Telemachon were there.

If it was with relative ease a 2000 year old Sigismund would have been able to beat clone Horus

Abaddon a Clone of Horus, possibly. I don't think he is the same size as Horus, he's pretty large in his terminator plate. He's got to be quite large to use the Talon which was designed for a Primarchs hand.

I guess he's swollen in stature now as he has the blessing of the 4 Gods but the events of Talon of Horus/Black Legion were set before the Gods had shown real interest.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't think it was with relative ease, I'm not sure that Wyzilla's recollection is 100% accurate but neither is the 1 v 1. It was definitely a group effort and I think at least Khayon, Firefist and Telemachon were there.

If it was with relative ease a 2000 year old Sigismund would have been able to beat clone Horus

Abaddon a Clone of Horus, possibly. I don't think he is the same size as Horus, he's pretty large in his terminator plate. He's got to be quite large to use the Talon which was designed for a Primarchs hand.

I guess he's swollen in stature now as he has the blessing of the 4 Gods but the events of Talon of Horus/Black Legion were set before the Gods had shown real interest.

I meant relative ease in the sense that usual depictions of Primarchs have them dominating any number of Astartes. I thought Wyzilla's explanation was useful in demonstrating why the Horus clone may not be as powerful as the actual Horus, not that I believed this was what had actually been written.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They could have released Abaddon with the Codex 6th edition. Or with the Black Legion supplement. Or with Black Legion supplement 2. Or with Traitor Legions. Or with Gathering Storm. Or with Codex 8th edition.
They didn't though and Greyfax is the last to blame for that. She's actually more interesting than the whole Primaris line for example.

Abaddon is more interesting than the whole Primaris line Greyfax and all the other triumvirates.

I'm sure sisters, admech, and inqustion fans would all disagree with you.

and eldar fans, and grey knight fans....

I mean at least chaos has SOME plastic characters, prior to the trimvurates NONE of the others did, and GW foisted a bloody chaos marine on one of the trimvirates. (cypher) who I would have, being perfectly honest, prefered to see a character more likely to remain around and interact, maybe I dunno... a plastic version of the black templars captain who had accompanied the crusade

In short, I do not think that Abaddon is a clone of Horus.
It is mentioned in the first three Horus Heresy novels that some sons of Horus were nearly identical to Horus himself (in facial features). This is due to the geneseed. IT is not specicially mentioned about Abaddon (more of "little Horus), but it is logical that we would receive some features.
This combined with Abaddon fueled by rage and the warp means that he can duel with a Primarch in his current state.I do not think that Abaddon could best a late-heresy era Horus in one-on-one combat with comparable weapons and armour. That Horus had boons from the warp and is more powerful.


I think I'd prefer that Abaddon's body eventually becomes the host of Horus's soul, thus bringing Horus back. This could happen through some pact that Abaddon makes with all four gods, thinking that he will receive ultimate powers.

Either that, or a clone of Horus is produced, but the Emperor/Star Child possesses the body. This fulfills several prophecies - Horus sits on the throne, the Emperor dies, the Star Child is born, the Emperor has to die for the Primordial Annihilator to be vanquished.

Although I was wondering if Guilleman's realization that he was just a "tool" or "rasp" to get the Emperor out of his prison means that it is Guilleman who is to be the Emperor's new body. This has other strange implications, such as why has Guilleman run off on crusades, rather than submitting himself (unless there is stuff he's been ordered to do first).

Maybe I just like delicious ironies.

Abaddon being rumoured to be clone of Horus has been in the fluff for ages. Regardless of whether it is actually so, it is something that the people in the setting believed to be possible. Of course this fluff originates from the era when Primarcs were not humongous giant freaks and thus some random marine being their clone semed way more plausible.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually like that we got a female inquisitor in plastic. If anything felt unnecessarily included model wise, it was Voldus and fluff wise it was Cypher.

Yeah but we got eisenhorn, she could have waited. Abaddon needed done before an Inquisitor, regardless of the sex. I mean it was his crowning moment, he finally took the gate the the materium and we got an inquisitor instead, such bs. It was just GW trying to bring out a female model for all the unreasonable moaners that think women are somehow underrepresented in the game.

While I agree that chaos didn't get much out of the 40k end times and Abaddon really does deserve a new model, women are pretty under presented by GW. The only lines that have official female models are Eldar of all varieties and Tau sorta. We have no female guard models despite all GW really needing to do is some head swaps and they let Sisters rot for years. As a whole, the Inquisition line could also use some love as wel..

It was certainly a feat to be able to represent Abaddon needing a new model in such a manner that it made me disagree...

Wyzilla wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon should be a solid match for a Primarch. He beat clone Horus. If he can do that, then Abaddon should be able to take on the others.

Basically, Abaddon needs more lovin'.

No he didn't. Abaddon didn't beat the clone, he brought around 100 marines to fight the clone which were mostly shot to pieces, and Abaddon himself only killed the clone because the clone tried to earn Abaddon's fealty. Abaddon then sucker-punched the clone with the Talon and blew open its hearts. And that's ignoring the fact the clone would be soulless and lack the metaphysical aspects that make a Primarch a Primarch. If Chaos actually wants to take on Guilliman, all Khorne or Slaanesh needs to do is send Angron or Fulgrim after him - who are both more than a match for Abaddon or Guilliman.

From how I read it, it did sound like Abaddon beat the clone. And I'm open to the clone being weaker than Chaos Horus, or even regular Horus, but I still maintain that it's Primarch tier (maybe the weakest of the Primarchs, but still more Primarch than anything else).

I don't know if Fulgrim would beat Guilliman round two. Guilliman is more powered up than previously, whereas Fulgrim isn't too different. Angron is just Angron.

 Crimson wrote:
Abaddon being rumoured to be clone of Horus has been in the fluff for ages. Regardless of whether it is actually so, it is something that the people in the setting believed to be possible. Of course this fluff originates from the era when Primarcs were not humongous giant freaks and thus some random marine being their clone semed way more plausible.

Its never held so much credence until now though.

The 'true sons' is something which gets mentioned a lot in the heresy - marines who look like (to scale) carbon copies of horus.

And yes, killing clone horus was mostly due to the talon - a weapon with both sanguinius and the emperor's blood on it and more chaos legacy badassness than (at that point) everyone and everything else in the room combined (Khayon - the guy who telekinetically threw a starship!) basically having a near cerebral aneurism the moment abbadon stepped aboard carrying it.

I'd imagine that clone Horus is not as strong as the real deal. Bile is a good scientist but the newer stories imply heavily that the emperor stole warp energy from the chaos goods when he was making the Primarchs. I doubt that Bile would have access to that.

TarkinLarson wrote:


I think I'd prefer that Abaddon's body eventually becomes the host of Horus's soul, thus bringing Horus back. This could happen through some pact that Abaddon makes with all four gods, thinking that he will receive ultimate powers.

No, just, no. Ignoring the fact that Big E completely obliterated Horus' soul in their final battle doing that would just be stupid. Certain characters have to stay dead for a reason- There's a reason Thomas and Martha Wayne are dead, same goes for uncle Ben. Same for Bucky (scratch that last one... ) All are responsible for shaping the respective characters into what they are today. To give a 40k example- The Blood Angels. To bring their primarch back would ruin not just their whole raison d'etre, it would feth up the whole Imperium as it is today at large. Sanguinius' death is such a pivotal moment in the shaping of the 40k galaxy as we know it, it just gaks on everything to say "Nah brah, he's still alive yo."
But I'm going off at a tangent here.

To circle it back to Abaddon. We have a similar situation. The entire shtick of the BL is to cast off the lingering shadow of Horus and carve their own bloody path that that weak fool Horus could never achieve. They changed their entire legion name FFS! Abaddon dropped an entire spaceship on the adopted homeworld of the person who had the gall to resurrect Horus (and 19 others).

 Grimtuff wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:


I think I'd prefer that Abaddon's body eventually becomes the host of Horus's soul, thus bringing Horus back. This could happen through some pact that Abaddon makes with all four gods, thinking that he will receive ultimate powers.

No, just, no. Ignoring the fact that Big E completely obliterated Horus' soul in their final battle doing that would just be stupid. Certain characters have to stay dead for a reason- There's a reason Thomas and Martha Wayne are dead, same goes for uncle Ben. Same for Bucky (scratch that last one... ) All are responsible for shaping the respective characters into what they are today. To give a 40k example- The Blood Angels. To bring their primarch back would ruin not just their whole raison d'etre, it would feth up the whole Imperium as it is today at large. Sanguinius' death is such a pivotal moment in the shaping of the 40k galaxy as we know it, it just gaks on everything to say "Nah brah, he's still alive yo."
But I'm going off at a tangent here.

To circle it back to Abaddon. We have a similar situation. The entire shtick of the BL is to cast off the lingering shadow of Horus and carve their own bloody path that that weak fool Horus could never achieve. They changed their entire legion name FFS! Abaddon dropped an entire spaceship on the adopted homeworld of the person who had the gall to resurrect Horus (and 19 others).

Agreed, Horus should stay dead, as well as all the other dead Primarchs.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually like that we got a female inquisitor in plastic. If anything felt unnecessarily included model wise, it was Voldus and fluff wise it was Cypher.

Yeah but we got eisenhorn, she could have waited. Abaddon needed done before an Inquisitor, regardless of the sex. I mean it was his crowning moment, he finally took the gate the the materium and we got an inquisitor instead, such bs. It was just GW trying to bring out a female model for all the unreasonable moaners that think women are somehow underrepresented in the game.

LMAO braj their release decisions were definitely not based around pandering, Abaddon needs to get released with a huge Chaos update, models, book, etc, and releasing just him and nothing else would be a huge blunder and mistiming.

besides abbaddon wou;dn't have worked in a formation with an imperial saint and a admech tech preist. the trimuvirates where sold with rules for a formation allowing you to use all 3 together

Annoyingly, there were two other chaos lords - Ahriman and Kharn - who were re-done in the Gathering Storm, though.

Agreed, Horus should stay dead, as well as all the other dead Primarchs.

I would agree, but fear they'll want to find 'loopholes' for many of them.

Abbadon the Warmaster is a decent substitute for horus.

I guess a bigger, more impressive is-he-a-ghost-of-sanguinius-or-not sanguinor might qualify.

Ferrus has already been hinted at in the heresy series since getting a short back and sides from Fulgrim, in master of mankind - but that's associated with something looking suspiciously like the Legion Of The Damned. I have a pet theory that the Animus Malorem might really be the Gorgon's skull.

Night Haunter? Yeah. Dude's dead. Because unlike everyone else, he actually wanted to be. Suicide by assassin is still suicide.

Horus was the clone, Abaddon is the original!

Of course, under the Emperor's tutelage Horus was able to grow, whereas Abaddon was neglected, not realising his full potential until way after the Horus' failure came to pass.

That's the newest rumour circling Black Legion forces!