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 rayphoton wrote:
Is it not kosher to make a IG army and call them chaos? (I ask cause that's what I'm doing)

Yes and No:
Because you can't ally in with their repsective faction thanks to keywords.Basically you play Chaos but can't ally in Chaos in such a case.

Secondly: You can represent traitor guard with that. something quite alot of people do actually but the problem is you will be missing quite alot of interesting and fluffy choices. (Renegade Grenadiers for exemple, etc)

Additionally not all of these traitors are as organised as a guard force. Some of them are paramilitary in nature, others are literally just workers rioting, other again are mutants rising up from their slums,etc.
What you can represent is a small fraction of R&H with the imp codex and you are constantly at the mercy of your opponent, letting you do fluff choices,etc so suboptimally.

I recommend you that you get yourself some pictures of the IA13 list and then beginn to compare, it is a deeper list with way more options, only problem it is 7th edition and therefore atm Illegal.

Ahh..thank you for the new info to digest.

Only tangentially on topic, (and no on may care) I'm making a chaos army using IG and imperial fists and just calling and modeling them as chaos and Iron warriors.

But that book DOES look pretty cool....

ValentineGames wrote:
Or just CAD design it...it'll look gak but who cares? Your customers will still buy it

CAD lets you cheat a little by having a library of parts you can use, or the ability to take an old design and give it some new tweaks to make something new, but that doesn't make it instantaneous. It still takes time to sculpt stuff.

And personally I rather like most of their CAD designs. So much better than some of the stuff we've gotten in the past.

My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

For clarity, you cannot use units with Keyword ASTRA MILITARUM in a Renegades and Heretics list but it is perfectly permissible to use the Astra MIlitarum/Imperial Guard miniatures to represent Renegades and Heretics.

There's also nothing stopping you modelling AM/IG miniatures as R&H but running them as AM/IG. Of course, you can't ally in Daemons or CSM/Heretic Astartes then but AM/IG are so strong that you don't need to.

Don't buy IA13, it is obsolete. The 8th Ed. R&H army list is in Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

I fail to see how any sort of release cycle is "unacceptable". I mean, sure, I'd like to see updates for every army every edition, but when you're doing 2 codex releases a year on average and the edition runs around 5 years or so, you're not going to get through all the armies in that amount of time. Some level of reasonable expectations need to be laid out. Even with GW's accelerated release schedule (a schedule that may have people burnt out already), 40k isn't their only game and because they're working on multiple different games at the same time it means they're not going to just chuck out books for everyone right away.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

Honestly with the speed GW is cranking stuff out right now I can't think of any other company in the miniatures world working at this pace barring one or two Kickstarters - and that is only after they've had one to two years of production and development after funding (and thus have a glut of product to bring to market) (Warcradle would also fit into this as WWE was KS launched before they sold to WC)

GW is developing at a record pace that we've never seen - times have never been better, esp for 40K! Indexes at launch, Codex for the entire game within 2 years including several new armies as well as several (at least 3) new specialist games and Age of Sigmar releases all alongside that. It's a huge volume of stuff.

Heck I can never remember a time when I WEEKLY saw new stuff from GW marketed. Monthly was the best we could hope for in the past and even then one might wait years for an army update - all the while worrying that your army could be "Squatted"

 Excommunicatus wrote:
For clarity, you cannot use units with Keyword ASTRA MILITARUM in a Renegades and Heretics list but it is perfectly permissible to use the Astra MIlitarum/Imperial Guard miniatures to represent Renegades and Heretics.

There's also nothing stopping you modelling AM/IG miniatures as R&H but running them as AM/IG. Of course, you can't ally in Daemons or CSM/Heretic Astartes then but AM/IG are so strong that you don't need to.

Don't buy IA13, it is obsolete. The 8th Ed. R&H army list is in Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

That's why i recommended him to get pictures.

People keep talking about how sisters should be immediately after orks... we haven't even seen a pic of a model yet. I think it's going to be mid 2019 for them.

Technically we have seen a pic of one model and it looks amazing. But yea with sisters getting a beta codex in CA I doubt that they will get their release until deep in 2019.

GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

The turnaround for Codexes isn't that long. It's certainly not as long as it takes them to make models. After all, when they pushed out the Space Wolves codex, they made a fix to all the languages except English in time to make the final print.

I wouldn't be surprised to see GSC in November or even beginning of December. There's people that will say that GW never releases anything in December, but they did last year.

As for the Sisters of Battle, expect mid 2019 at the earliest. We still haven't seen full renders of the sisters' armor except that one model that they're planning on releasing ahead of time. The heads they showed off were also still not final, and there's the idea floating around that the sisters release won't just be old models redone, but that there will be some new things in there as well. The Beta Codex will likely contain only the old models to get a feel for the balance and give people time to give feedback. And man, I'm going to be all over that giving as much feedback as possible!

There's lots of things to look forward to. When it comes to GW, the problem with every edition is always wading through the first 2 years of space marines (in this case Primaris) and THEN getting to the interesting stuff. Until that point, the hobby is what you make of it.

drbored wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

The turnaround for Codexes isn't that long. It's certainly not as long as it takes them to make models. After all, when they pushed out the Space Wolves codex, they made a fix to all the languages except English in time to make the final print.

I wouldn't be surprised to see GSC in November or even beginning of December. There's people that will say that GW never releases anything in December, but they did last year.

As for the Sisters of Battle, expect mid 2019 at the earliest. We still haven't seen full renders of the sisters' armor except that one model that they're planning on releasing ahead of time. The heads they showed off were also still not final, and there's the idea floating around that the sisters release won't just be old models redone, but that there will be some new things in there as well. The Beta Codex will likely contain only the old models to get a feel for the balance and give people time to give feedback. And man, I'm going to be all over that giving as much feedback as possible!

There's lots of things to look forward to. When it comes to GW, the problem with every edition is always wading through the first 2 years of space marines (in this case Primaris) and THEN getting to the interesting stuff. Until that point, the hobby is what you make of it.

I think people are underestimating the lead time on printing. And due to the lack of a need for translation, the English version of a codex can go to print yonks ahead of other languages meaning the Space Wolves codex thing could have easily just been the result of the English version being read to go to the printers far earlier than other versions.

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

But to make this good you would have to have the majority of people play at least multiple w40k armies, and to be really safe also other games, maybe not even GW ones. So no model transitioning. I don't know about other countries, but here people that actually own more then one army are either 40+year old veteran players or store owners. Everyone else has max 1 army, and unless someone plays demons the number of people playing AoS or any other game, and w40k is close to zero too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the speed GW is cranking stuff out right now I can't think of any other company in the miniatures world working at this pace barring one or two Kickstarters - and that is only after they've had one to two years of production and development after funding (and thus have a glut of product to bring to market) (Warcradle would also fit into this as WWE was KS launched before they sold to WC)

GW is developing at a record pace that we've never seen - times have never been better, esp for 40K! Indexes at launch, Codex for the entire game within 2 years including several new armies as well as several (at least 3) new specialist games and Age of Sigmar releases all alongside that. It's a huge volume of stuff.

Heck I can never remember a time when I WEEKLY saw new stuff from GW marketed. Monthly was the best we could hope for in the past and even then one might wait years for an army update - all the while worrying that your army could be "Squatted"

I don't know most of their codex came with zero new models, and a lot of the codex were the index copy pasted with added stratagems and relics. And a lot of those were re used, in different books.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
My my how spoiled we have gotten. We used to have armies 2 or 3 EDITIONS behind.

That was unacceptable then. This is unacceptable now.

That's such a meaningless statement though. They've release a lot of stuff, for a lot of game but a lot for 40k.

The fact that not enough of it (in your opinion) interests you, specifically, does not make it in some way objectively unacceptable.

If it's unacceptable to you, fair enough. Take a break from GW for a while.

But to make this good you would have to have the majority of people play at least multiple w40k armies, and to be really safe also other games, maybe not even GW ones. So no model transitioning. I don't know about other countries, but here people that actually own more then one army are either 40+year old veteran players or store owners. Everyone else has max 1 army, and unless someone plays demons the number of people playing AoS or any other game, and w40k is close to zero too.

Ok, but that's still not really GW's fault. They can't have such a variety of faction and constantly release stuff for all of them.

I think my advice stands - this sounds like personal burnout, so give the game a rest.

How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

Now I understand why they don't make a batch of models to different factions each month. It is not their style. But it is one thing not doing that, and making games with the assumption that the only way to be safe playing it, is spending 3000-4000$ on 3-4 factions, and maybe having some 500$ spare in some specialist game or even a non GW game. They should at least warn people about it. Or do stuff like this is codex X, we are not planning to update it or give it good rules, but we have models for the faction and there are those faction players asking for rules , so we put it out, but don't expect it to be playable, we didn't playtest it at all.

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

Now I understand why they don't make a batch of models to different factions each month. It is not their style. But it is one thing not doing that, and making games with the assumption that the only way to be safe playing it, is spending 3000-4000$ on 3-4 factions, and maybe having some 500$ spare in some specialist game or even a non GW game. They should at least warn people about it. Or do stuff like this is codex X, we are not planning to update it or give it good rules, but we have models for the faction and there are those faction players asking for rules , so we put it out, but don't expect it to be playable, we didn't playtest it at all.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

And we come full circle to "GW owes me the models I want when I want them".

Speaking of models that I want when I want them, I was on board to bang on about blisterpacks for GSC characters, but after my FLGS got me a Broodcoven box I can see why the GSC HQs aren't packaged seperately at the moment (it's one well put together sprue and not 3 small sprues as it'd make you think it was).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has flat out stated that Sisters were 2019 (Emperor Willing) and that CA only has beta rules so they can get feedback to make the codex better than they think they could do on their own.

I've heard people making rumblings that GSC were going to be next (in November) but considering that GW said they were "working on the codex" in the change to reserves when they mentioned Cult Ambush I'm going to say that they're not this year either. They could get expanded extra rules in CA again though.

My thinking is that the "beta codex" will have most of the rules that work with the metal models that already exist; datasheets, probably some stratagems and faction traits. The actual Sisters release will certainly come with new units and new wargear for the existing units so they wouldn't be able to publically playtest that stuff even if they wanted to.

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

Burn out can happen to anyone, regardless of the hobby. Sometimes you need to step back from the game itself and tackle other projects or change which army you're working on, or even just read a book. Maybe you just find a specific opponent less fun to play, or maybe you're boxing yourself in too much on how you do your own hobby that you need a little time to decompress before coming at it with a new perspective.

The models and the game will still be there if you take a couple days or even a couple months off away from the game. Don't think of it as leaving the hobby as much as recharging your batteries so when you play games again it doesn't feel as draining as it seems to be for you right now.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
How can I give it a rest, when I had nothing out of it yet? I had nothing to burn.

The burnout isn't just getting tired of them giving you stuff, or even playing games. I get the impression that engaging with the hobby at all is having a negative affect for you at the moment basically.

I don't understand that, my therapist told me I should engage in hobby activity to start feeling better. This would make no sense at all. I spend money on the army, I should get something in return. I understand it is scaled, and that someone who spends 10 times as much will get more out of his army. But are you telling me my "fun" was having those 5-6 games vs the primaris player, before he got the custodes bikers and a knight? that I spent all my money for 5 games>?

I don't know you, I don't know your exact circumstances or anything. Just going off my own experience.

All I'm saying is that sometimes a hobby becomes a chore, and then it's time to try a new hobby. To do otherwise is likely succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy, something we all do from time to time.

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

You give them money, they give you miniatures. That's the contract.

End of. Fin. Dokończony.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Burn out can happen to anyone, regardless of the hobby. Sometimes you need to step back from the game itself and tackle other projects or change which army you're working on, or even just read a book. Maybe you just find a specific opponent less fun to play, or maybe you're boxing yourself in too much on how you do your own hobby that you need a little time to decompress before coming at it with a new perspective.

The models and the game will still be there if you take a couple days or even a couple months off away from the game. Don't think of it as leaving the hobby as much as recharging your batteries so when you play games again it doesn't feel as draining as it seems to be for you right now.

What other projects? I can't take my GK and say that they are BA or SW or DW like some dudes around here do. There are no armies with same load outs of weapons, plus all the special weapons would be non WYSIWYG. Am not even sure there are armies other then BA who can have hvy flamers in their troop units. And for the last month and a half I had zero opponents. I go to the store, ask people if they would like to play and they don't want to, most common anwser is that it is a waste of time. Worse because of how GK units are mostly termintors, I can't take part in any of the smaller games, because those ban +2sv models. Plus what would I do in the mean time, I have to write bi weekly reports to my therapists about what I am doing, otherwise it is back to the hospital or juvi for me.

You got something in return; you got a bunch of miniatures.

If something doesn't work, then it is not a thing. If someone sold you a care and forgot to mention the engine isn't actualy in the car, you would expect a refund. Or at least feel cheated.

All I'm saying is that sometimes a hobby becomes a chore, and then it's time to try a new hobby. To do otherwise is likely succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy, something we all do from time to time.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Plus I don't know what a sunk cost fallacy, no translator says what that means.

It means that because you've paid money into your hobby (ergo bought models and paint and glue) you continue to feel like you must stick with that hobby. That you must play with your army no matter what because you've got money tied up in it and that if you don't use it that money was a "waste".

It's a fallacy because its not true, you paid money and got the joy of building and painting and playing with those models. Then you reach a point where you are no longer getting enjoyment from them.

At that point you can
1) Change to a different hobby - put the models and tools in a box and try something else. Sports, walking, drawing, writing, reading etc.... Ergo you try out something else. The money on the first hobby isn't wasted, its just invested into something you're not using right now and which you can always come back too.

2) Try something different within the hobby. You might start converting; or a new paint scheme; or a new army. IF you've not bought any new models for your current army in a long while you might buy some to change your army composition etc...
This can often work when you're just in a small bored phase and you do something a little different. Games like Necromunda and Bloodbowl are ideal GW examples of smaller games many shift to for a change in pace. Kill Team is another; or you could try Infinity or Malifaux if they are played locally - again low investment changes within the hobby to give you renewed interest.


Remembering that you might just be "burned out" ergo bored with your current hobby.


That's life. Some people latch onto one thing and never burn out; others burn out almost every week. Different people react differently but the key is realising it and then adjusting and accepting the change. Sometimes that means putting the army in a box for a week/month/year or more.

The sunk cost fallacy is where you keep putting money into something, because you've already spent money on it. Because otherwise the money you initially spent was a 'waste'.

So you buy a car for $5000, but it requires $2000 of maintenance and repairs every year and you keep paying it rather than scrapping the car and buying a new one because if you scrap it, you've 'wasted' all the money you've previously spent on it.

You weren't sold a car that has no engine, though. You were sold a car that has three modes of performance and you don't like how it performs in one of those modes. It also appears that you didn't do any research before buying your car.

GW has long been explicit in selling a 'hobby'. Their release schedule is quite deliberate because they know we're impulsive adultchildren by and large and they want us to buy their other ranges too.

I'm quite happy with all those smaller board game / starter set releases, since they invariably lead to cheap single sprue sales on eBay well below GW pricing. Forgebane was the sole reason I was able to start Necrons on a tiny budget, so by all means, let them release more of those.