Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey folks!

I need help understanding some game changes from a Drukhari perspective, preferably from people who have been playing for a while. I've been gone since 5th edition, where Force Org charts were 2 HQ, 6 troops, and 3 each elite, fast attack and heavy support. In turn, Dark Eldar armies required a mandatory 3x Triple Dark Lance Ravagers (for anti-tank), 3x Trueborn units packing max blasters for more anti-tank, blasters scattered into your warrior units for anti-tank, and probably some wyches in your troops with haywire grenades for even more anti-tank. If it was a 2500 point game, you might even throw in some reaver jetbikes....with heat lances for more anti-tank.

Razorwings and Void Ravens could never compete with Ravagers because for the points, three sets of triple dark lances mathematically outkilled the one-shot wonder flyer weapons, and the follow on 2 void lances couldn’t keep pace with 3 dark lances. What changed and how to put flyers into a competitive Drukhari list? Looking at the Voidraven bombers - are those missiles no longer single use? The void mine looks to be single use still? Hulksmash tells me Razorwings edge out Void Ravens, but....how do those compare with ravagers?

Someone sent me a Drukhari tournament list with no ravagers and three units of two each Talos (with dual haywire blasters each) - but again, how do those compare? I went through the long Drukhari tactics thread and didn't see answers for these things, and need some help pulling me up to an 8th edition understanding of why people are using the things they are using.

I get that vehicles have toughness now, and hit/wound mechanics changed...but instead of needing a 3+ to hit, then a 4+ to glance (or 5+ to penetrate) against AV12, now it's a 4+ to hit?!? Our gunnery got worse? You roll to hit, then roll to wound, and if you wound, do D6 wounds? Do enemy vehicles take saves against the original "to wound" roll or against each of the D6 wounds caused?

I have a lot of questions about why A vs. B while I sort out how I need to play and what I need to buy to make an army in 8th edition, but this is a good start.

Most drukari shoot and hit on a baseline 3+. 4+ is simply for talos who are lesser creatures thus lesser shooting profile. But all of the regular full blooded drukarri do hit on 3+ before in game modifiers that can lower that number based on several factors.

For playing pure drukari without any allies ravagers still see lots of play along with things such as the aforementioned talos.

Rate of fire is a much bigger deal overall in 8th edition. Since most of the time you won’t wound at lower than a 5+ the str 5 of the disintegrators have risen above the dark lance for most ravager loaf outs. 9 shots vs 3 allows you to be more versatile when facing different armies at events. There are a great many powerful horde armies in the meta and only a few armies based around heavy armor(knight titans). And when considering that those particular heavy vehicles have solid invulnerable saves the dark lance really loses some luster.

What you’re struggling with in terms of numbers is the difference between a wound and damage in 8th edition. So for example a dark lance is str 8 so it rolls to wound against a t7 rhino and rolls a 3+ it wounds. Now the rhino gets a save however it’s 3+ armor is reduced by the -4 modifier of the dark lance to no save at all... of for example the dark lance only had a -1 ap the rhino would receive a 4+ save. Now that the rhino has failed it’s save you roll the d6 damage. If after that the rhino had some rule that many models have in one form or another like a feel no pain(the turn one bonus for the drukari power from pain table for example) they would roll a number of dice equal to the damage roll you made and then take whatever wounds they did not pass. This “feel no pain” function even works for single wound models though obviously they need to pass all of them in order to survive.


That is why currently the coven units are a heavy staple of drukari list discussion I believe. The most popular sub faction in the coven grants all the models a 4+ invul that can not be negatively modified. The units are very high toughness. They have adequate speed and lack luster shooting but a high volume of close combat attacks to cut through hordes. Backed up by the aforementioned triple ravagers or piles of grotesques talos can in theory flood towards the opponent.

Other theories involve things your more familiar with. Including ravagers and planes and venoms with some blasters for support fire. MSU style builds. This build probably relies more on math than command points and combos. But has it’s own limitations such as being weak to close combat.

The drukari book is now split. And in tournament play you are allowed three detachments. In drukari case you are going to have to make any one of your detachments pure coven, or pure wych or pure kabal or lose all the inherent buff abilities of the factions. This is somewhat limiting in list design because archons for example are lack luster but expensive hq. Most lists will want two battalions to unlock command points (5 per battalion). This means at a minimum you are looking at 4 hq and 6 troops. But remember that any page in the codex not a troop or dedicated transport may only be selected three times. So while you can take three units of two talos you can not take 6 units of one talos. Meaning you will also most likely be taking battalions of two different core drukari units because you can’t take a pure kabal without limiting your command points to your own detriment.

Personally I think that any drukari list that denies itself the eldar power doom is handicapping itself. But that’s not to say these lists can not compete. Also I personally prefer wych cults but that’s a whole box of worms that most disagree with. And combining the three harlequins and eldar and drukari can also lead to solid results.

Mostly in 8th it comes down to how much damage can you do to your opponent. Everything can technically hurt everything and everything in the game dies.

Well, as a player that played them in 5th all the way through and till 8th.

The very 1st thing you need to do and learn right now, no matter what (this is true for all armies in 8th) FOR GET EVERY THING YOU KNEW ABOUT 40k! EVERYTHING.

Its so important, that im repeating it, FORGET EVERYTHING YOU KNEW ABOUT 40K!


A few things to know about 8th:

1) Everything is in the form of a Datasheet, its the units page of information, all rules for them or about them are on these sheets
2) All units have Keywords, make sure to read the BRB on keywords, if you need help about them just ask
3) There is 0 competing for FoC slots now, but there is the "Rule of 3" you see see it as, tho its not ro3, its rule of limited datasheets, this is a "Max about of the SAME datasheet per army" in 1K its 2, 2k its 3, 3k its 4, etc.. so for 2k games its the "Rule of three" aka Ro3. This means you can only have 3 Ravagers in a 2k army. BUT Troops and Transports ignore this rule. SO you can have unlimited amounts of troops and transports
4) Transports fololw the keyword rules too, and ANY unit can take a Dedicated transport, and can carry ANY unit with the same <Keyword> as long as you follow the transports datasheet rules. DE can have a Ravager take a transport and your Incubi can also take one, but the Incubi can go into either transport, it doesnt matter (DE has special rules for transport FYI, we can add in NONE <Keyword> units, we are the only ones)
5) Finally another very important thing, the way Damage, AP, wounds, etc.. works has COMPLETELY change. This means different units are stronger in 8th than in 5th, 7th, 4th editions etc..


DE are one of the best Mono-faction armies ATM, but you can ally in any army with the same general Faction <Keyword> DE is <Aeldari> so are Harlequins and Eldar (CWE), so DE can have CWE with them, but they need to be in there own detachments (the new FoC, you can have up to 3).


Some of DE's current strong units are Talos, Ravagers, Flyers, Grotesques, Wracks, Kabals. But overall almost everything in the book is good other than Drahzar, Incubi, Court, Beasts/BM, Hellions, and Reavers, and even those can be good in none-tournament games.

OrdoSean wrote:


Personally I think that any drukari list that denies itself the eldar power doom is handicapping itself. But that’s not to say these lists can not compete. Also I personally prefer wych cults but that’s a whole box of worms that most disagree with. And combining the three harlequins and eldar and drukari can also lead to solid results.

Mostly in 8th it comes down to how much damage can you do to your opponent. Everything can technically hurt everything and everything in the game dies.

Can you elaborate?

I was reading through the Drukhari "Battle Forged" rules last night; some of those rules are really nice. Especially where if a Drukhari troop is contesting an objective, it automatically owns it.

What is doom; why is it so important, where do I go to read more about it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:



Some of DE's current strong units are Talos, Ravagers, Flyers, Grotesques, Wracks, Kabals. But overall almost everything in the book is good other than Drahzar, Incubi, Court, Beasts/BM, Hellions, and Reavers, and even those can be good in none-tournament games.

That sounds very similar to 5th, except for Talos and Flyers, and trueborn blaster units went from 27 points per model down to 24....but don't have a codex entry anymore. There's an index or something I need to go find.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:


Personally I think that any drukari list that denies itself the eldar power doom is handicapping itself. But that’s not to say these lists can not compete. Also I personally prefer wych cults but that’s a whole box of worms that most disagree with. And combining the three harlequins and eldar and drukari can also lead to solid results.

Mostly in 8th it comes down to how much damage can you do to your opponent. Everything can technically hurt everything and everything in the game dies.

Can you elaborate?

I was reading through the Drukhari "Battle Forged" rules last night; some of those rules are really nice. Especially where if a Drukhari troop is contesting an objective, it automatically owns it.

What is doom; why is it so important, where do I go to read more about it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:



Some of DE's current strong units are Talos, Ravagers, Flyers, Grotesques, Wracks, Kabals. But overall almost everything in the book is good other than Drahzar, Incubi, Court, Beasts/BM, Hellions, and Reavers, and even those can be good in none-tournament games.

That sounds very similar to 5th, except for Talos and Flyers, and trueborn blaster units went from 27 points per model down to 24....but don't have a codex entry anymore. There's an index or something I need to go find.

5th and 8th are nothing a like tho, Wracks are now Troops, they can teleport and regain models in the unit at the same time, has a 4++/6+++ and Kabals are good b.c they are so cheap you can throw them away and still gain CP for them, use them to get in the way, hold objectives, they are not there for damage anymore, its very common to take 0 upgrades on them meaning no blaster. Most dont even play Trueborns anymore as they are in Index no Codex

Index is for legacy units, units with no models that didnt get rules in the Codex's, they are still legal to play, just many try to stay with Codex unless they ahve models for them converted already, like them in general, etc.. they are more costly too, kabals being 30pts for a 5man, trueborns are 55pts and not troops, they still have there place for sure.


5th DE can be play similar to 8th, but its DE, they will have similar play styles, tho the meta lists are largely different. Tho i do REALLY miss my CTC formation and how Reaver played in 7th. But the 5th Codex i would take over 8th in a heartbeat, i really miss the 5th codex a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, he means that CWE powers are really strong, Doom and Jinx can make sure you kill a unit without trying.

Doom and Jink are psychic powers, Doom lets everything re-roll wounds vs 1 unit, Jinx makes their saves 1 less (including Invuls). With those 2 powers you encrease your damage an insane amount, idk the math, but i'm guessing its about 60% more damage for 2 powers combine vs 1 unit. That can be the difference in killing a Super Heavy or not.


PPS: About Wyches, they are really good, or can be. if they dont die before they get their, in theory they can get 40+ S5 attacks hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's to hit and some wounds. They can make units not fallback as well, in 8th all units can leave combat, if you tie up a large shooting unit, they just run away and shoot you, Wyches can also stop this, with a 4++/6+++ in melee they have a good chance to stay for a turn or 2.

Also in Ynnari, in theory you can have them fight 3x instead of once, tho this is very hard to do, you must fully kill a unit (declared your charge vs more than 1 unit), be in range of 2 units, and use CP's/Ynnari rule SfD. The sequencing is odd on it too, you can however have pile ins and consolidated to help get in range. Its something i would like to try in the future for fun.

A couple points to add, good advise has been given so far. I also skipped 6th and 7th edition due to balance issues and the game just not being much fun, so the jump was basically the same as the OP.

1) I do disagree with the thought that Reavers are 'not good'. They are a mandatory selection in nearly every list I make. They aren't the most killy thing in the codex, but they are the fastest. They fill a very utilitarian role tactically and help break up gunlines and screens. I'm not saying to invest a ton of points into them, usually just with a grab talon or two for cheap mortal wounds with Painbringer or Hypex drugs and you're good to go.

2) There has been a lot of discussion about Dissies v. Lances, blasters, etc. However IMO the best anti-tank, or specifically anti-titan weapon are Haywires. However you get them in, Scourges, Talos, or a Harlequin detachment is generally going to be a good investment. These days practically every imperial list out there has at least one Knight, and Haywire is the best thing to take them down.

3) Yes trueborn still exist, and technically they are legal. Whenever I see them in a list it seems really 'gamey'. Sort of like in previous editions when people would take obscure Forge World stuff that was crazy unbalanced (back when Forge World stuff wasn't overcosted like they are now). Trueborn aren't even that great, theyre sort of overpriced, fragile, and not really needed in the current list of units we have available. It's not even a power gaming move to include them, but taking Index units when you already have a perfectly good codex kinda has the aura of being 'that guy'.

4) If you already have models, great. If not, then I'd be careful about buying much beyond the Core units: Wyches, Kabalites, Venoms, Raiders. The Chapter Approved update is right around the corner, and what is good or auto-include now might not be in 2 months. (Chapter Approved is the yearly update that adjusts point cost and stats of units as needed. A FAQ adjusts rules every 6 months, CA adjusts points and stats yearly.) Also remember the Rule of Three, no point having more than three of each unit. Troops and transports the only exception, you can still spam those.

5) Lastly a few random things. Venoms are likely the best light transport in the game right now. The Eldar as a whole all complement each other really well, can't really go wrong with combos (DE/Craftworld, DE/Harlequin, etc.) to fill weaknesses. Also with how quickly GW had released codexes and with frequent attempts at balancing (errata/FAQs, Chapter Approved) the meta changes frequently. For example, Haywire went from OK to great after the Knights codex was released, which in turn boosted Harlequins and Talos up in the competitive scene. So you do have to pay attention to what the meta is doing.

Hope some of that helps. Keep at it, read articles, watch bat reps, and you'll get the feel for the new edition pretty soon.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
A couple points to add, good advise has been given so far. I also skipped 6th and 7th edition due to balance issues and the game just not being much fun, so the jump was basically the same as the OP.

1) I do disagree with the thought that Reavers are 'not good'. They are a mandatory selection in nearly every list I make. They aren't the most killy thing in the codex, but they are the fastest. They fill a very utilitarian role tactically and help break up gunlines and screens. I'm not saying to invest a ton of points into them, usually just with a grab talon or two for cheap mortal wounds with Painbringer or Hypex drugs and you're good to go.

2) There has been a lot of discussion about Dissies v. Lances, blasters, etc. However IMO the best anti-tank, or specifically anti-titan weapon are Haywires. However you get them in, Scourges, Talos, or a Harlequin detachment is generally going to be a good investment. These days practically every imperial list out there has at least one Knight, and Haywire is the best thing to take them down.

3) Yes trueborn still exist, and technically they are legal. Whenever I see them in a list it seems really 'gamey'. Sort of like in previous editions when people would take obscure Forge World stuff that was crazy unbalanced (back when Forge World stuff wasn't overcosted like they are now). Trueborn aren't even that great, theyre sort of overpriced, fragile, and not really needed in the current list of units we have available. It's not even a power gaming move to include them, but taking Index units when you already have a perfectly good codex kinda has the aura of being 'that guy'.

4) If you already have models, great. If not, then I'd be careful about buying much beyond the Core units: Wyches, Kabalites, Venoms, Raiders. The Chapter Approved update is right around the corner, and what is good or auto-include now might not be in 2 months. (Chapter Approved is the yearly update that adjusts point cost and stats of units as needed. A FAQ adjusts rules every 6 months, CA adjusts points and stats yearly.) Also remember the Rule of Three, no point having more than three of each unit. Troops and transports the only exception, you can still spam those.

5) Lastly a few random things. Venoms are likely the best light transport in the game right now. The Eldar as a whole all complement each other really well, can't really go wrong with combos (DE/Craftworld, DE/Harlequin, etc.) to fill weaknesses. Also with how quickly GW had released codexes and with frequent attempts at balancing (errata/FAQs, Chapter Approved) the meta changes frequently. For example, Haywire went from OK to great after the Knights codex was released, which in turn boosted Harlequins and Talos up in the competitive scene. So you do have to pay attention to what the meta is doing.

Hope some of that helps. Keep at it, read articles, watch bat reps, and you'll get the feel for the new edition pretty soon.

It helps! Thanks a lot!

It's no big deal for me to wait another month or two before buying models. My tens of thousands of dollars worth of 40k stuff from 5th edition is all gone....I never thought I'd be interested again, but some guys from work are trying to pull me back in. I'm starting from scratch. I really want to make sure what I buy is what I end up with permanently - my 1850 TAC list that doesn't change for anything or anyone, forever. Since Talos seem to be so critical anti-tank nowadays, and folks around here think they are universally agreed to be too powerful, we'll see what Chapter Approved does before I finalize a list, buy it, and find someone to paint it for me.

Honestly they are not to powerful, many things can take them down, they are a bit to cheap (15pts or so) and they will go up in points very soon.

They are honestly perfect amount of toughness for 8th, in 8th everything can hurt everything and do it well, S1 can hurt T1000 now, so having Bolters wound them on a 5+ when they used to be on 6+ is a big difference, when you can shoot 50 bolters now for the same points of 25 bolters in 5th, thats a huge difference, and now even ap -1 can make the difference, its a HUGE difference.

So your units either need to be able to be spam and throw aways or tough enough to take many hits, Venoms and Kabals are the perfect example as cheap enough to throw away and Talos are good example of Tough enough to be able to get into combat. Remember they are a CC unit and they need to get there.

Many armies now can shoot 200-300 shots a turn.

But... if you are not playing any type of power list, then yeah, they might feel really strong, but taking 1 for fun isnt to bad at all and it will be a fire magnet and die most likely. So dont be afraid to take a couple.

Wyches are awesome. I have played and seen played pure cult armies. they are fast and deadly. its kinda fun having your whole army in melee end of turn 1 maybe 2 depending.

I will agree trueborn are a little "that guy" now but i will say that the one codex unit that is needed is a Foot Autarch if thats how you want to run your CWE detachment. Because they didn't give the codex rule to change his equipment.

Personally i hate coven armies. mostly the look and the lore. Blah. and i do fine with out them.

Happy maniacal realspace hunting

Trueborn you are paying way to much for them IMO and they should be in the codex, they have been a staple piece of DE for 8years +. thats like taking out Veterans/strenguard from SM, its silly.

Im very salty about DE still, as a HUGE part of the codex over the years keeps getting taken away, not just good rules and units but amazing fluff rules that played well (fun and fluffy), GW took away some of the niche rules bc "no one gets them" its so stupid.

PS, the Coven is my FAVORITE! Look at the pic, its Dr Satan, basically a Haemonculus lol.