Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We can argue the details (the arm bands, the paratrooper smocks) but the image I get when I see them is Nazi. While the DKK look more diesel punk, WWI.

There's really no reason GW couldn't do 3-4 different regiments at once in plastic. Make a 10-12 man plastic kit for each regiment that includes the options for special weapons teams, heavy weapons team (probably 1 per box, but 2 would be nice) and command squads/officers. They already basically do this for Scions, minus the heavy weapons team. Everything else is basically regiment-agnositc, except for the odd exposed gunner/pilot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
We can argue the details (the arm bands, the paratrooper smocks) but the image I get when I see them is Nazi. While the DKK look more diesel punk, WWI.

So you're saying it doesn't actually matter what they look like, in your minds eye they look like 'nazis'. It also seems reasonable by your objection that you also equate 'nazis' to all WWII German armed forces. Pretty sure the most of the Wehrmacht would take issue with that.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
We can argue the details (the arm bands, the paratrooper smocks) but the image I get when I see them is Nazi. While the DKK look more diesel punk, WWI.

I think thats 90% the helmet, at least to me. They look at least as much coldwar era Soviet mechanized infantry as they do anything ww2 Axis (particularly the typical mustard/yellowish Steel Legion color scheme) to my eyes. Change the helmet style to a more Soviet style one such as some of the Valhallans sport and I think most of the visual perception go away.

 SickSix wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
We can argue the details (the arm bands, the paratrooper smocks) but the image I get when I see them is Nazi. While the DKK look more diesel punk, WWI.

So you're saying it doesn't actually matter what they look like, in your minds eye they look like 'nazis'. It also seems reasonable by your objection that you also equate 'nazis' to all WWII German armed forces. Pretty sure the most of the Wehrmacht would take issue with that.

I kind of doubt they would disavow their political leadership who led them into war.

As long as they were winning at least. Then suddenly no one was a nazi.

But we're going off topic. My point was let's keep real world warfare and politics out of our fun fictional wars.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
We can argue the details (the arm bands, the paratrooper smocks) but the image I get when I see them is Nazi. While the DKK look more diesel punk, WWI.

So you're saying it doesn't actually matter what they look like, in your minds eye they look like 'nazis'. It also seems reasonable by your objection that you also equate 'nazis' to all WWII German armed forces. Pretty sure the most of the Wehrmacht would take issue with that.

I kind of doubt they would disavow their political leadership who led them into war.

As long as they were winning at least. Then suddenly no one was a nazi.

But we're going off topic. My point was let's keep real world warfare and politics out of our fun fictional wars.

You're the one who brought it up.

The Steel Legion stuff is an amalgam of second World War stuff. There's elements of German paratroopers, There's no "armbands" either. There's a single patch on the left arm with a lightning bolt on it.

If put into plastic, the artwork we've gotten of late suggests we'd see a bit of a redesign.

I think some dual kits could work really well for this if you just change heads and a few accessories.

The following could probably share bodies and while not perfect representations of the art work well enough

Deathcorps/Steel Leigon/Valhallen
Mordian/Praetorian
Less stuipidly proportioned Catachan/Tanith

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Geeze if GW does Steel Legion can we make them like, 20% less Nazi?

More Sci fi and less Axis please!

Aside from the Fallschirmjaeger-esque helmet and Y-strap webbing, there's not much about them that's particularly Axis-ey. The yellow coat, cavalry boots, leather gloves, hazmat goggles, and heavy emphasis on BMP-esque Chimeras aren't particularly Nazi-ish. Even the underfolding carbines are more Soviet AKS in style than German MP40.

That Helmet is not inspired by kraut helmets. Ergo what are you even talking about Kyoto, if you could complain about any IG range in such a way you could do so for the DKOK range but even then it would be wrong because the DKoK helmet is a hybrid between the Stahlhelm and the adrianhelmet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally the whole fething imperial heraldry would need to be reconsidered --> doubleheaded eagle,F.e or the whole skull heraldry --> first used by hussars afterwards by the SS.

I'm not sure why people seem to think IG are going to be redone...

GW have been on a run of redesigning model lines to be more 'copyright friendly'. Hence the new Ork buggys all being unique and specific. And the HQ options in the Daemons codex have all changed from "slaanesh herald on beast" to "bilepiper fluxmistress bloodmaster".

Humans in flak jackets with machine guns are probably the least copyright friendly models/units/armies in existence. Even the tanks can easily be replaced with any one of a hundred different tanks from other model lines.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the IG 'makeover' ended up being some kind of variation on the Primaris theme, making each unit different and less likely to be copied elsewhere. But as IG are basic humans, this would be very difficult to do.

I would expect IG to just get a couple of new units, maybe a new regiment that has some uniquely (copyrightable) features. The older units that are based on things like russian troops and rambo, I just don't see getting much effort put into them, as there would be very little incentive for GW to do so.

Unless they come up with a new line of the best models in existence, that no other company can compete with. But seeing as there's already multiple excellent alternatives for these models it seems unlikely.

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure why people seem to think IG are going to be redone...

GW have been on a run of redesigning model lines to be more 'copyright friendly'. Hence the new Ork buggys all being unique and specific. And the HQ options in the Daemons codex have all changed from "slaanesh herald on beast" to "bilepiper fluxmistress bloodmaster".

Humans in flak jackets with machine guns are probably the least copyright friendly models/units/armies in existence. Even the tanks can easily be replaced with any one of a hundred different tanks from other model lines.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the IG 'makeover' ended up being some kind of variation on the Primaris theme, making each unit different and less likely to be copied elsewhere. But as IG are basic humans, this would be very difficult to do.

I would expect IG to just get a couple of new units, maybe a new regiment that has some uniquely (copyrightable) features. The older units that are based on things like russian troops and rambo, I just don't see getting much effort put into them, as there would be very little incentive for GW to do so.

Unless they come up with a new line of the best models in existence, that no other company can compete with. But seeing as there's already multiple excellent alternatives for these models it seems unlikely.

GWs obsession with it's copy right post chapter house is going to hurt it in the long run and is really creatively stiphiling.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure why people seem to think IG are going to be redone...

GW have been on a run of redesigning model lines to be more 'copyright friendly'. Hence the new Ork buggys all being unique and specific. And the HQ options in the Daemons codex have all changed from "slaanesh herald on beast" to "bilepiper fluxmistress bloodmaster".

Humans in flak jackets with machine guns are probably the least copyright friendly models/units/armies in existence. Even the tanks can easily be replaced with any one of a hundred different tanks from other model lines.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the IG 'makeover' ended up being some kind of variation on the Primaris theme, making each unit different and less likely to be copied elsewhere. But as IG are basic humans, this would be very difficult to do.

I would expect IG to just get a couple of new units, maybe a new regiment that has some uniquely (copyrightable) features. The older units that are based on things like russian troops and rambo, I just don't see getting much effort put into them, as there would be very little incentive for GW to do so.

Unless they come up with a new line of the best models in existence, that no other company can compete with. But seeing as there's already multiple excellent alternatives for these models it seems unlikely.

GWs obsession with it's copy right post chapter house is going to hurt it in the long run and is really creatively stiphiling.

I know right! Artists being upset that their creations are being copied and resold elsewhere for profit, how dare they.

Just because GW is a big corporation these days, doesn't make it any better. If you let people abuse copyright with big companies, then big companies will use that precedent to screw over every small artist they can.

(Hell, this already happens all the time, no need to make it even easier for them).

Totally off topic rant though, just hits close to home as I know a couple of artist friends who have had to take legal action against others who have stolen their work, and I'd hate for it to happen to me.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I would personally like to see either Vostroyan first born, or if they want to make a new regiment. I want to see something more ancient and imperial looking, I don’t want this modern army aesthetic thing they got going with Cadia and catachan. Something that looks like the Rogue Trader guys in the new box set would be nice.

Also, update imperial tanks to look less modern. Needs more bling.

Bingo.

I understand them protecting their copyright, all companies should. However since chapter house, GW has been purging units and options with a gusto and in a few years time I expect the model line to significantly downsized and purged because they don't want rules if they can't sell you an exact match.

 jeff white wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I would personally like to see either Vostroyan first born, or if they want to make a new regiment. I want to see something more ancient and imperial looking, I don’t want this modern army aesthetic thing they got going with Cadia and catachan. Something that looks like the Rogue Trader guys in the new box set would be nice.

Also, update imperial tanks to look less modern. Needs more bling.

Bingo.

I agree, they're more likely to go with something more Rogue Trader like, or maybe even go with some of the solar auxillary or tech-thralls from horus heresy.

Less WW1/WW2 and more WW30


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I understand them protecting their copyright, all companies should. However since chapter house, GW has been purging units and options with a gusto and in a few years time I expect the model line to significantly downsized and purged because they don't want rules if they can't sell you an exact match.

They've culled the random options that dont have current models, but then they've also started releasing new models (such as the warboss on wartrike).

So if their plan was to cull all the outdated units that don't actually exist, and then gradually replace them with new units... then that's a great plan, and so far it would seem to be going well.

Of course, if they end up just never making any new models ever again, then you'll be right that the model line will be relatively a lot smaller than before. However at the moment it's bigger than it ever has been (because all the units they removed never had models anyway).

The models do exist though, they aren't fruit, they don't expire. Older players like me would prefer to not have my older stuff squatted and up into recently that was never a fear I had at any point when I was playing till now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The models do exist though, they aren't fruit, they don't expire. Older players like me would prefer to not have my older stuff squatted and up into recently that was never a fear I had at any point when I was playing till now.

Not sure on what models you're specifically referring to. I know that most (if not all) of the models/units I know of that were removed from the rules are ones which didn't have an actual kit.

There may well be examples of units that do have models, that were removed from the game.

Conversions (obviously) don't count, neither do kit-bashes.

Niiru wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The models do exist though, they aren't fruit, they don't expire. Older players like me would prefer to not have my older stuff squatted and up into recently that was never a fear I had at any point when I was playing till now.

Not sure on what models you're specifically referring to. I know that most (if not all) of the models/units I know of that were removed from the rules are ones which didn't have an actual kit.

There may well be examples of units that do have models, that were removed from the game.

Conversions (obviously) don't count, neither do kit-bashes.

IG Rough Riders had models for over 20 years, but they were really dumb and the unit was never very good and so I imagine they didn't sell well. They remained a valid entry up through the 8E index but got removed in the 8E IG codex, somewhere the models went away and GW just stopped making rules for them and never updated the models/concept.

BrianDavion wrote:
Speaking with my "if I was a GW exec" hat on for a moment, and looking at trends, what we know about sales etc I'd go with a new regiment, introduce rules for a new regiment, they'd have new war gear options etc and would basicly be a regiment that is "guilliman's new envisioning of the guard" (maybe go with the Ultramar Auxilleria as the new regiment simply because it'd make sense he'd roll major changes out there first) they'd ahve some new war gear options and have an intreasting blend of old and new looking armor, with design elements borrowed from some of the most popular metal ranges.

the guard would have new choices of weapons etc (if the primaris marine replacement has moved along then perhaps give them bolt guns and fluff it as "since the IoM has a surplus of old boltguns now..."

It simply makes sense that after getting the Space Marines into a form Gulliman likes, he'd look at reforms in other branches of the Imperial military. and introducing a new range that is "gulliman's standardized equipment" is proably a good idea for GW as the guard fluff right now still harkens back to the old days of "MAKE WHATEVER YOU LIKE!" which is obviously away from GW's stance now.

"Lt, introduce this gentleman to the trackside of a Leeman Russ ASAP. Comms, get our Naval advisor on the horn. We need an orbital strike on the grid coordinates of this, and I quote "Gulliman" heresy and turn his AO into a fething glass parking lot right this emperor loving minute."

Give me plastic Dneiper! Or any of the other cool regiments from days gone by.

I'd like to see new Cadians. Perhaps a bit smaller, less chunky and more detailed. Also new upgrade sprues like conversion bits with various heads, equipment, and gear, like pieces that can make a Valhallan out of Cadian by giving them a different head and adding a piece that attaches to regular Cadian legs and when completed, it becomes a long-coat.

At least an option for a one or two female miniatures is a must, same as all weapon options, so we wouldn't be dependant on command squads or 3rd party sites to get Plasmas.

With respect to female guard, I think that should depend on the background of the regiment. Like, some regiments probably hail from misogynistic patriarchies that wouldn't even consider letting a woman leave the kitchen, let alone fight on the front line, whereas others would consider men and women both equally worthy of being sent bayonet first into an oncoming swarm of hormagaunts for the glory of the Emperor.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
With respect to female guard, I think that should depend on the background of the regiment. Like, some regiments probably hail from misogynistic patriarchies that wouldn't even consider letting a woman leave the kitchen, let alone fight on the front line, whereas others would consider men and women both equally worthy of being sent bayonet first into an oncoming swarm of hormagaunts for the glory of the Emperor.

You forgot the third possibility: war is a women's business and men have no place in it.

For that reason, running both female and male guards in your flagship line of model of the Imperial Guard seems the most wise. Let other companies or Forge World take care of the male and female only varieties. Furthermore, with full face masks, long coats and thick body armor, female and male guards could use the same models as they would be unisex. Everybody is a winner in those case. Your regiments can be 50/50, or full male or full female without having to buy a different box.

epronovost wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
With respect to female guard, I think that should depend on the background of the regiment. Like, some regiments probably hail from misogynistic patriarchies that wouldn't even consider letting a woman leave the kitchen, let alone fight on the front line, whereas others would consider men and women both equally worthy of being sent bayonet first into an oncoming swarm of hormagaunts for the glory of the Emperor.

You forgot the third possibility: war is a women's business and men have no place in it.

Exactly! In the far future, all possibilities exist.

epronovost wrote:
For that reason, running both female and male guards in your flagship line of model of the Imperial Guard seems the most wise. Let other companies or Forge World take care of the male and female only varieties. Furthermore, with full face masks, long coats and thick body armor, female and male guards could use the same models as they would be unisex. Everybody is a winner in those case. Your regiments can be 50/50, or full male or full female without having to buy a different box.

I agree that the flagship should probably be mixed, not for political reasons, but because I think it's more in fitting with the aesthetic of the Imperium. Yes, it's a patriarchy at the upper echelons, but when it comes to dying in his name, I doubt the Emperor gives 2 servitors about their reproductive organs.

And interchangeable bodies could easily be a thing if Games-Workshop relented on the whole, "it's female, therefore, boobs," mentality. I mean seriously, how is it that practically every female in the 42nd millennium has massive, rockin', heavybolters? Did the birth of Slaanesh have consequences far beyond the Eldar soul buffet?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The models do exist though, they aren't fruit, they don't expire. Older players like me would prefer to not have my older stuff squatted and up into recently that was never a fear I had at any point when I was playing till now.

they likely won't. most likely what'll happen is they'll bring in a new regiment, give some song and dance about how this is the new standard, and sell it along side catachans and cadians, until eventually the catachan and cadian molds wear out.

Female models should be AN OPTION in form of complete conversion set or one additional chest and/or head bit in the kit sprue. I don't think it should be forced. Fluff reasons.

 Hawky wrote:
Female models should be AN OPTION in form of complete conversion set or one additional chest and/or head bit in the kit sprue. I don't think it should be forced. Fluff reasons.

if it's a new regiment if it's fluffed out from the start that they ALWAYS run mxied regiments... who cares? besides it proably would be optional as they'd just supply some female heads. under combat armor it's pretty hard to judge gender

BrianDavion wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Female models should be AN OPTION in form of complete conversion set or one additional chest and/or head bit in the kit sprue. I don't think it should be forced. Fluff reasons.

if it's a new regiment if it's fluffed out from the start that they ALWAYS run mxied regiments... who cares? besides it proably would be optional as they'd just supply some female heads. under combat armor it's pretty hard to judge gender

Feth, sometimes it's hard to tell in CADPAT, full-fighting order notwithstanding.

There absolutely ought to be female heads in any future Guardsmen kits, but squads of skimpy-fatigued "Battle Beauty" type models would be so much worse than doing nothing at all.

 Hawky wrote:
Female models should be AN OPTION in form of complete conversion set or one additional chest and/or head bit in the kit sprue. I don't think it should be forced. Fluff reasons.

Male models should be AN OPTION in form of complete conversion set or one additional chest and/or head bit in the kit sprue. I don't think it should be forced. Fluff reasons.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Please please Mordians or Praetorians! If they were in plastic I'd buy a thousand

Alas too much historial model looking to come to reality. Almost certain if GW ever goes around redoing IG it's going to be completely made up regiment with grimdark style supposed to stop 3rd party making equilavents while failing at it completely.

BTW if they did one of the two no point in not doing the other. Original praetorians were mordians with new heads. Wouldn't be too hard to fit heads for both in sprue either.

One thing I definitely want is for them to be compatible, universal head and arm attachments!

The N17 models are a nightmare to build and convert and any new IG should be open for conversion.

But I think single body/legs are better, you can get more natural poses and I don't think being able to swap legs and torsos really helps, especially in an army where 99% are in the same uniform.