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The Newman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The very next post says that that hyperbole is accurate.

What? The next post said that Guardsmen are probably the most efficient chaff clearing unit - which mathematically they just might be. Nothing at all about every single Guard unit in the dex being OP, or even about Guardsmen themselves being OP - in fact his second pick was Aggressors. What did you read?


Hyperbole like this is exactly what ruins good discussion, get the chip off your shoulder.

The very next post was answering sarcasm with sarcasm, and then making a serious effort to answer the original question. The OP did say he was looking for cheap units points-wise.

Exactly, that's how I read your post too. When someone responds to an overly sarcastic remark with an outlandish statement, but then says "but seriously tho here's what I actually think", it generally suggests the proceeding statement was sarcasm. But I guess some people missed that.

It's Destroyers, not Breachers.

And Destroyers are probably better too, so hey.

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen are OP with or without terrain. They have far outstripped any of my marine units in terms of overall usefulness. Aggressors are only theoretically dangerous, as they are incredibly fragile for their cost.

This is fair point.

Aggressors do mathematically quite a lot better than anything else I've number crunched IN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

Punishers, while they have a lower ceiling, are T8 with a lot of wounds. And also it's easier to reach their potential killing power thanks to not needing to stay stationary to shoot twice with the Gatling cannon.

Basically, there's pros and cons to everything!

 Stux wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Warlord Titan with two Ariaoch Power claws with inbuilt Vulcan Mega Bolters and 2 Twin MegaBolters on the shoulders. That'll shift that screening unit of Carnifexes right quick and a bargain at 4000pts

You're not exactly wrong but at the same time there's just something off about that I can't put my finger on.

Is it actually points efficient though? Genuine question. If points are not for consideration, then Cent Devs are pretty great at clearing chaff!

Carnifexes are about 100pts each and you'll probably kill 10 a turn with shooting

 Rolsheen wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Warlord Titan with two Ariaoch Power claws with inbuilt Vulcan Mega Bolters and 2 Twin MegaBolters on the shoulders. That'll shift that screening unit of Carnifexes right quick and a bargain at 4000pts

You're not exactly wrong but at the same time there's just something off about that I can't put my finger on.

Is it actually points efficient though? Genuine question. If points are not for consideration, then Cent Devs are pretty great at clearing chaff!

Carnifexes are about 100pts each and you'll probably kill 10 a turn with shooting

So about 25% of your points in damage?

Aggressors are doing about 70% of their points a turn Vs Gaunts hah

 Stux wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Warlord Titan with two Ariaoch Power claws with inbuilt Vulcan Mega Bolters and 2 Twin MegaBolters on the shoulders. That'll shift that screening unit of Carnifexes right quick and a bargain at 4000pts

You're not exactly wrong but at the same time there's just something off about that I can't put my finger on.

Is it actually points efficient though? Genuine question. If points are not for consideration, then Cent Devs are pretty great at clearing chaff!

Carnifexes are about 100pts each and you'll probably kill 10 a turn with shooting

So about 25% of your points in damage?

Aggressors are doing about 70% of their points a turn Vs Gaunts hah

The issue with agressors is limited range and transport options, combined with needing to be stationary to achive the mathematical efficiency. They needed something to be able to get in range asap and be able to stay in range without moving.
Realy they are more a great area denial unit but not great offensively.
A Punisher Russ is actually probably more of an issue to your opponents if you have knights as its more T8 wounds they have to deal with.

Ice_can wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Warlord Titan with two Ariaoch Power claws with inbuilt Vulcan Mega Bolters and 2 Twin MegaBolters on the shoulders. That'll shift that screening unit of Carnifexes right quick and a bargain at 4000pts

You're not exactly wrong but at the same time there's just something off about that I can't put my finger on.

Is it actually points efficient though? Genuine question. If points are not for consideration, then Cent Devs are pretty great at clearing chaff!

Carnifexes are about 100pts each and you'll probably kill 10 a turn with shooting

So about 25% of your points in damage?

Aggressors are doing about 70% of their points a turn Vs Gaunts hah

The issue with agressors is limited range and transport options, combined with needing to be stationary to achive the mathematical efficiency. They needed something to be able to get in range asap and be able to stay in range without moving.
Realy they are more a great area denial unit but not great offensively.
A Punisher Russ is actually probably more of an issue to your opponents if you have knights as its more T8 wounds they have to deal with.

I agree with you

I was looking at comparing performance Warlord Titans to Aggressors just as a bit of fun to be honest!

 Rolsheen wrote:
Warlord Titan with two Ariaoch Power claws with inbuilt Vulcan Mega Bolters and 2 Twin MegaBolters on the shoulders. That'll shift that screening unit of Carnifexes right quick and a bargain at 4000pts

4000? You are just year out of loop it seems. GW upped lots of resin model prices to ensure no gamer buys those and instead spends that money on plastic. You are looking at 6000 pts for that. And in 6k game lose automatically as opponent doesn't need to even bother to do anything. In 6'x4' you prolly need like 15k game to make warlord worth it(by simple fact of not being able to fit any more better stuff so need to take it just to soak up points)

Gallants are great. Make it part of the royal court, give it +1 attack, and you can wipe a unit of guard a turn.

I'd probably go a Deathwatch Fortis kill team with assault bolters and aggressors. Can be placed in teleportarium if needs be, and do some serious work.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'd probably go a Deathwatch Fortis kill team with assault bolters and aggressors. Can be placed in teleportarium if needs be, and do some serious work.

Frankly, doesn't really even need the assault boltguns. The teleportarium puts you in rf range of bolt rifles, so you aren't missing out on as much by not upgrading.

RogueApiary wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I'd probably go a Deathwatch Fortis kill team with assault bolters and aggressors. Can be placed in teleportarium if needs be, and do some serious work.

Frankly, doesn't really even need the assault boltguns. The teleportarium puts you in rf range of bolt rifles, so you aren't missing out on as much by not upgrading.

Unless you don't plan on moving for the rest of the match you do. 5" movement without advancing on the Agressor is a huge drag, and not taking advantage of the free advance for Assault weapons is a waste. If you want a one shot drop and burn unit, go for Vets with Stormbolters via teleport. If you want a mobile pain in the ass that can drop and burn, then frazzle around the board, go with the Auto Bolt Fortis.

Mortars is the default choice. Cheap as cheaps, long range, no need for LOS, and they do work.

 Polonius wrote:
Mortars is the default choice. Cheap as cheaps, long range, no need for LOS, and they do work.

9 mortars

Vs. Tacs in the open
32 average shots, 16 hit, 8 wound, 2.6 dead MEQ

Vs. Tacs in cover 1.28

Vs. Ravenguard Tacs in cover .84

Vs Vanguard with shroudpsalm or Guardsmen in cover with Take Cover! 3.48

Vs. Stygies vanguard with shroudpsalm 2.29

Vs. Guardsmen in cover 5.28

Vs. Guardsmen out of cover 6.96

Other than maybe the last two, it's not particularly impressive. When you were able to take 15+ of them, they were much better at being the one stop shop for your infantry mulching needs. Now they're only good if you're not in any kind of hurry to kick a unit off of an objective since it'll take an average of two turns to boot off most min sized units. Likely over 5 turns for ravenguard in cover.

You can pretty much ignore MEQ in the anti infantry department. Quite literally everything is effective shooting at them.

Use GEQ for anti infantry discussion.

Aggressors.

Punisher Russ.

Castellan Robots.

Pretty good sources of volume shooting.

But if i'm going up against Green Tide, i'd want Repulsors with Bobby G. -2 to charges +FLY, and their dakka is bonkers if you build them for it.

Shooting MEQ isn’t really all that important because 1) MEQ isn’t meta, T3 5+ is closer to the meta; and 2) MEQ is pretty vulnerable to the legion of mid-to-high AP volume attacks that’s out there.

Basically what I want from chaff clearing units is the ability to mulch Guardsmen, Eldar Guardians, DE Kaballites, Cultists, Tau Fire Warriors, and the like.

If you’re playing in an Intercessors meta I don’t think a Knights army really needs to optimize itself to do well.

5 SW Wolf Guard on Bikes armed with Storm Bolters and Storm Shields - 215 points of T5 2W 3++ dakka

80 Bolter shots at 12" range!

Just to list a few off of the top of my head that would be pretty good.

Sicaran Punisher, Fire Raptor, HB Rapier battery, Mortis dreads W Heavy Bolters

Redemptor Dreadnought, Repulsor, Aggressors, Dark Talon, Talonmasters, Scout Bikers, AC Razorbacks.

Im not an imperial player per-say, but isnt there FW artillery of Twin HB's for super cheap? I think they are 10pts Base and comes with a HB, they i know (or at least remember) must shoot infantry if it can or something like that instead of the normal (Shoot closest).

IDK for 111pts to put 3x 6 shot HB's down (18 shots), that can be up in buildings gaining cover all game and cant be charged due to new FAQ changes, it might be a good investment.

Also i think they are 4-5 wounds each, so its not like they are easy to kill., T5/4w 2+ cant be charge, nearly 20 shots seems good.

EDIT: Can they get Re-roll auras? If so that a huge buff to them, idk if they can.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Im not an imperial player per-say, but isnt there FW artillery of Twin HB's for super cheap? I think they are 10pts Base and comes with a HB, they i know (or at least remember) must shoot infantry if it can or something like that instead of the normal (Shoot closest).

Tarantula Sentry Guns.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Im not an imperial player per-say, but isnt there FW artillery of Twin HB's for super cheap? I think they are 10pts Base and comes with a HB, they i know (or at least remember) must shoot infantry if it can or something like that instead of the normal (Shoot closest).

IDK for 111pts to put 3x 6 shot HB's down (18 shots), that can be up in buildings gaining cover all game and cant be charged due to new FAQ changes, it might be a good investment.

Also i think they are 4-5 wounds each, so its not like they are easy to kill., T5/4w 2+ cant be charge, nearly 20 shots seems good.

EDIT: Can they get Re-roll auras? If so that a huge buff to them, idk if they can.

They're pretty decent but you have to factor in that they're FW and so pretty pricey real money.

 Stux wrote:


They're pretty decent but you have to factor in that they're FW and so pretty pricey real money.

They're literally just a box with guns on a small quad-legged platform though. Its a scratch build waiting to happen.

It's the gimmick of all gimmicks, but how about Mordian infantry, an officer, and a FW Sabre searchlight?

Start with two infantry squads. Spend a CP to consolidate. Get them within Rapid Fire range. Give them a First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire order. Point the searchlight at your target. Spend another CP to pop Mordian Volley Fire.

Each model gets four shots, hitting on 3+. Any roll of a 5 or 6 triggers another four shots. On average, 20 Guardsmen produce 187 total shots for 41 GEQs killed. Even outside rapid fire range, they average a respectable 15 GEQs killed. Not bad for a mere 120pts.

I've done the math on HB Tarantulas and it's not actually all that good. They actually cost 37pts each, which is funnily enough the same as an Aggressor!

So 3 Tarantulas averages 6 dead Guardsmen, and that's assuming the same advantage of being in a re-roll 1s aura.

That's not only less that a third of the expected kills from the same points in Aggressors in ideal conditions, it's actually less than advancing Aggressors who are only shooting once.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
5 SW Wolf Guard on Bikes armed with Storm Bolters and Storm Shields - 215 points of T5 2W 3++ dakka

80 Bolter shots at 12" range!

I just realized this unit isn't even in Codex: SW; must be an Index holdover.

Castellan Robots

Razorbacks with twin assault Cannons (one can even have Chronus)

Your own Chaff -Guardsmen, Bolter scouts, Cultists etc.

Leman Russ Punishers

Guard Flier with Punishers.... -mindblank...wait... vulture gunship?


stormtalons can be quite good with assault cannons and heavy bolters, mobile


Stormravens likewise can be armed to the teeth but sorta pricey


GamerGuy

Dont rely on index holdovers. They will kill the indices at some point.

Martel732 wrote:
Dont rely on index holdovers. They will kill the indices at some point.

I hope not. I'm going to be snapping off a lot of bits to be WYSIWYG.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dont rely on index holdovers. They will kill the indices at some point.

I hope not. I'm going to be snapping off a lot of bits to be WYSIWYG.

I hear that!

I've got 3 Ironpriests on Thunderwolves that I would have to dismantle. =(