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A lot of the unique units don't need to be unique. Baal predator is just a weapon option on Predator, hell, I don't think that even Ravenwing Knights need to be unique, I'm sure that other chapters (White Scars!) have veteran biker units too. And almost all of this stuff already had rules in the Index, and that was one small book. I play pure primaris these days, and I sure as hell never complained that I have all those non-primaris units in my codex even though I'm not planning to use them. More options is better.

What about the non-crunch stuff? My Codex has about 50 pages that are dedicated to the artwork and background flavour of my chapter. Assuming it's around the same for Space Wolves and Blood Angels, that's around 150 pages! That's more than half of the Big Rule Book!

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What about the non-crunch stuff? My Codex has about 50 pages that are dedicated to the artwork and background flavour of my chapter. Assuming it's around the same for Space Wolves and Blood Angels, that's around 150 pages! That's more than half of the Big Rule Book!

You'd have to do with couple of pages, just like Black Templars, Salamanders, Iron Hands etc.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What about the non-crunch stuff? My Codex has about 50 pages that are dedicated to the artwork and background flavour of my chapter. Assuming it's around the same for Space Wolves and Blood Angels, that's around 150 pages! That's more than half of the Big Rule Book!

You'd have to do with couple of pages, just like Black Templars, Salamanders, Iron Hands etc.

Exactly. Dark Angels and Blood Angels don't NEED 50 pages of fluff.

Oh man, I don't think I'd enjoy that at all. I like my special snowflakes. I think I'd rather they went the other way to be honest. Give all the chapters their own codex, each with 50 pages of nonsense for all the little fluff bunnies such as myself to gorge our wee tummies on.

Though in the interests of choice, I'd have nothing against having something like, "Index Astartes," along side the codices, that has everything you're looking for, but without any of the background fuss that many players aren't interested in anyway.

This is something that a lot of people seem to be underestimating with adding all this stuff back into one book. BA, SW, and DA have what 7 to 8 special characters each and at least 3 to 7 units per book that need there own data sheet and a fluff page. Then add in warlord traits, Stratagems, relics another few pages. Then general back ground and art work and model show case and color pallets. That's probably at least 20 to 30 pages for each of them.

Then factor in almost every data sheet getting longer as you add in more lines for all the options your rolling in and again you end up with an expensive and heavy tomb of a book. If they had wanted to consolidate the books they would have to have done it way back in 4th/ 5th before they released a ton of additional chapter specific models. To do it now either requires squating/arbitrarily consolidating data sheets, which will piss players off or keeping the books separate.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Something to add here, the Design Lead at GW confirmed that the rules team will be returning to the Grey Knights Codex and some of the 'earlier ones' once all the other Codexes have been released. He specifically mentioned concerns about what has happened with other Codexes since it originally came out.

That's all the perspective I have on the rules team. I imagine they had one set of ideas when they started on Codexes for 8th edition and it shifted over time. I'm hoping they fix the problems with GK before they move onto newer ideas like Codex EC.

Honestly I hope there are a decent amount of beta fixes for them in this CA. I don't know how I feel about waiting another year for a fix

Many people think Chapter Approved will include actual updated rules for the early armies (not beta.) Get it over with and move on. We will see in a couple months...

Agents of the Imperium makes me wonder tho. GW needs to get people off Indexes, except except for historical models. There are still too many units that don't appear in Codexes, feels like we will be seeing this before too long.

I just remembered, the FW Indexs need updated into codex's.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Something to add here, the Design Lead at GW confirmed that the rules team will be returning to the Grey Knights Codex and some of the 'earlier ones' once all the other Codexes have been released. He specifically mentioned concerns about what has happened with other Codexes since it originally came out.

That's all the perspective I have on the rules team. I imagine they had one set of ideas when they started on Codexes for 8th edition and it shifted over time. I'm hoping they fix the problems with GK before they move onto newer ideas like Codex EC.

Honestly I hope there are a decent amount of beta fixes for them in this CA. I don't know how I feel about waiting another year for a fix

Many people think Chapter Approved will include actual updated rules for the early armies (not beta.) Get it over with and move on. We will see in a couple months...

Agents of the Imperium makes me wonder tho. GW needs to get people off Indexes, except except for historical models. There are still too many units that don't appear in Codexes, feels like we will be seeing this before too long.

Yes I wouldn't mind some new rules for LotD and we'll new models too but I don't think many people are asking for new LotD models

Some people like me were excited when we were told there was gonna be a LotD codex. Then it was that single unit entry garbage with a relic

 chimeara wrote:
I just remembered, the FW Indexs need updated into codex's.

FW has never publishes codices though, indexes are more or less about what they;';ve always done.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Oh man, I don't think I'd enjoy that at all. I like my special snowflakes. I think I'd rather they went the other way to be honest. Give all the chapters their own codex, each with 50 pages of nonsense for all the little fluff bunnies such as myself to gorge our wee tummies on.

Though in the interests of choice, I'd have nothing against having something like, "Index Astartes," along side the codices, that has everything you're looking for, but without any of the background fuss that many players aren't interested in anyway.

You might enjoy 30k more if you want the entire production line to just be Marines.

Stormonu wrote:That there hasn’t been a Salamanders codex in the past is surprising.

If GW is going to insist on doing the likes of Space Wolves as a separate codex, I really think they should do one for each of the founding chapters (White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, etc.). At the least it would let them fill out more details on the successor chapters for each.

Of course, that’d also be fuel for doing various Imperial Guard Codexes too, like the old Catachan codex. I wouldn’t be opposed to that, but that could be a lot of mini-dexe’s right there. Maybe softbound pamphlet-style releases geared more towards Kill Team with some 40K tweaks/tricks/treats?

...And then you get into the Eldar Craftworlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Necron Dynasties and so on. Mini-dexes could be an interesting sideline, say some 80% fluff, 15% Kill Team crunch and 5% 40K crunch.

Then again, we might all have been better off if there had just been a single Space Marine codex and no chapter-specific books at all...

This kicks ass. Vulkan would approve.

wuestenfux wrote:Exodites would be nice.

Yeah, I want dino riders

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This is something that a lot of people seem to be underestimating with adding all this stuff back into one book. BA, SW, and DA have what 7 to 8 special characters each and at least 3 to 7 units per book that need there own data sheet and a fluff page. Then add in warlord traits, Stratagems, relics another few pages. Then general back ground and art work and model show case and color pallets. That's probably at least 20 to 30 pages for each of them.

Then factor in almost every data sheet getting longer as you add in more lines for all the options your rolling in and again you end up with an expensive and heavy tomb of a book. If they had wanted to consolidate the books they would have to have done it way back in 4th/ 5th before they released a ton of additional chapter specific models. To do it now either requires squating/arbitrarily consolidating data sheets, which will piss players off or keeping the books separate.

Nah we have shown that most so called unique units simply are not anything of the kind. No one loses anything and it adds maybe 10-15 pages at most. Index Imperium 1 was fine for those who need the rules.

Its amazing how absolutely everything has to revolve around three Chapters........and F the rest of the 40k universe. Emperor forbid any time and effort is spent on anything else = like maybe all the awesome Imperial Guard Regiments etc.

So I haven't read any before (skim, was SOB,SOS, Squats etc and pipe dreams faction)
Fuk Them,

INQUISITION (or relative models) has a mediocre player base and a lot of models for Adeptus ministorum etc or something equivalent nowadays (I think inquisition will be separate from our SOB but, fuk them the Inquisition, relies on ducks being wooden and people being as heavy as them...)


If don't get the Monty Python reference you are to young...
(Hopefully the Inquisition gets a codex because if not: " Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries"

BrianDavion wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I just remembered, the FW Indexs need updated into codex's.

FW has never publishes codices though, indexes are more or less about what they;';ve always done.

Well then, here's hoping they do codices in 8th. Or at least doing a massive update and reprinting the Index in a v2.0, I'd buy that. Like if they didn't address anything FW in the CA, because they were updating rules and points costs for v2.0, I would be okay with that.

 chimeara wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I just remembered, the FW Indexs need updated into codex's.

FW has never publishes codices though, indexes are more or less about what they;';ve always done.

Well then, here's hoping they do codices in 8th. Or at least doing a massive update and reprinting the Index in a v2.0, I'd buy that. Like if they didn't address anything FW in the CA, because they were updating rules and points costs for v2.0, I would be okay with that.

The old CA came out with a Forgeworld section, I'm sure the new CA will have the same. A few months latter maybe new Imperial Armour's

One I would love for guard to get a larger range I'm not arguing against that. In fact one of the reasons I hate the decision to have Primaris Marines be a thing is the Marine line was complete and didn't need more models. That said 15 pages added in, really? Characters alone are going to be 15 to 20 pages, then fluff, then art and then model pictures. Plus options, rules, warlord traits, relics, strats, etc.... Unless your just going to delete units and invalidate models you end up with a text book tomb far larger than any other codex.

Imperial agents was an interesting codex BUT if you chop out the stuff which is in Astra Militarum (Aeronautica officer of the Fleet & Valkyrie), Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sister of Battle (who are supposed to be getting their own codex), the actual content starts to look a bit thin.

~ Inquisition
~ Astra Telepathica (also in Astra Militarum, but now with sisters of silence)
~ Legion of the damned
~ Astra Cartographica (? non-Vhane-specific rogue trader?)

locarno24 wrote:
Imperial agents was an interesting codex BUT if you chop out the stuff which is in Astra Militarum (Aeronautica officer of the Fleet & Valkyrie), Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sister of Battle (who are supposed to be getting their own codex), the actual content starts to look a bit thin.

~ Inquisition
~ Astra Telepathica (also in Astra Militarum, but now with sisters of silence)
~ Legion of the damned
~ Astra Cartographica (? non-Vhane-specific rogue trader?)

Inqusition and Assassins will likely have their own Codexes (Especially when we look at the copy paste piles of Marines ones)
Legion of the Damned - not sure

The Church could get its own one.

Astra T with decent expanded Sisters of Silence Codex could be good - btu I think SOS will ge their own.

Rogue Traders should get thier own fun odex and model range and Xenos to take themn as allies !

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Oh man, I don't think I'd enjoy that at all. I like my special snowflakes. I think I'd rather they went the other way to be honest. Give all the chapters their own codex, each with 50 pages of nonsense for all the little fluff bunnies such as myself to gorge our wee tummies on.

Though in the interests of choice, I'd have nothing against having something like, "Index Astartes," along side the codices, that has everything you're looking for, but without any of the background fuss that many players aren't interested in anyway.

You might enjoy 30k more if you want the entire production line to just be Marines.

I would hate for 40k to lose any of the amazing diversity that the xeno factions bring. I can't imagine what brought you to leap to such an inaccurate presumption about me. The only thing I have argued for up until now is more diversity.

If you don't want the entire release schedule to be Space Marines then you must be incredibly naive as to how scheduling works. It would be impossible to give a codex to every Space Marine legion (god forbid the major non-legion chapters like Black Templars) without pushing the rest of the armies out entirely.

I wish they would condense the SM range somehow. There’s just too much stuff in that book and so much of it is very similar. It’s messy and the dex hurts my head to think about

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you don't want the entire release schedule to be Space Marines then you must be incredibly naive as to how scheduling works. It would be impossible to give a codex to every Space Marine legion (god forbid the major non-legion chapters like Black Templars) without pushing the rest of the armies out entirely.

Well, if you did a 'dex for each FF loyalist legion - rebranding Codex: Space Marines back to the 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines, possibly - you're able to shrink the current core book a bit, maybe adding in a couple of notable Ultra successors (like the Flesh Tearers were handled in the BA book).

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, Crimson Fists and Black Templars can then be included in the Imperial Fists book - in theory, you could improve the lot of BTs that way, though I'm not sure what they need at present as an army.

In terms of releases, what're we likely to see as a first pass for the remaining 5 legions (given 4 are already covered):
- Primaris upgrade sprue
- Primaris Lieutenant (and for whoever was bitching about 8th ed releases for the BA/DA/SW, these two are basically all they got, despite how long it took for the SW to show up)
- Maybe 2-3 standard Marine special units (jump pack/infiltrate units for Raven Guard, special bikers of some form for White Scars, etc)
- Maybe 2-3 additional special characters (though there are some existing ones you can just re-release - Chaplain Xavier for the Salamanders, for instance)

OK, each book is a slot in the release window, and a lot of the content would be recycling standard units. But you'd also give the background people chance to work on how these five (and key Successor Chapters) are portrayed in M41, as opposed to just giving them a throwaway page in the core book. And you'd probably be able to drop the pricing of the theoretical Codex: Ultramarines back into line with the rest of the "standard" codex range.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you don't want the entire release schedule to be Space Marines then you must be incredibly naive as to how scheduling works. It would be impossible to give a codex to every Space Marine legion (god forbid the major non-legion chapters like Black Templars) without pushing the rest of the armies out entirely.

I don't know why you feel the need to use such judgmental language; some people could take offence at being called naive.

You're also dead wrong about me.

I'm more than aware that adding time to such an endeavor would be to the detriment of time spent elsewhere, and I'm not suggesting it should ever take precedence over things that badly need to be addressed first, like updating the Eldar and guard ranges, but it could still be undertaken over a very long time period which would make the impact less severe. Also, in that time, I see no reason as to why the same ambitions couldn't be had for non-marine factions too: Codex: Steel Legion? Absolutely. Codex: Biel Tan? Why not?

Sure, I know that this would dramatically increase the production cycle time of the 40k range as a whole, and if you hate that proposal, then feel free to attack my argument, but please don't attack me personally; I'm only suggesting possibilities, not making demands.

You're right that I was being unnecessarily confrontational, and for that I apologize. Still, you must understand that more marine legions getting books is far more likely than any non-marine factions getting subfaction books. We will never see a Codex: Nihilakh, nor do I think we should since their organization is not fundamentally different from the baseline assumptions of Necron forces.

Books like Deathwatch or Thousand Sons are fine because they have fundamentally different organizations that can't be emulated with the base book (for Deathwatch there's zero point if you can't organize your marines into a kill team, for Thousand Sons you can't run any of the iconic CSM units because they've been turned to dust). If we were to get, say, a Codex: Imperial Fists... what would even be in it? Nothing that would not make just as much sense if it was available to the marine faction as a whole. We already have this problem with the less distinctive marine books that currently exist (looking at you, Librarian Dreadnought).

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You're right that I was being unnecessarily confrontational, and for that I apologize. Still, you must understand that more marine legions getting books is far more likely than any non-marine factions getting subfaction books. We will never see a Codex: Nihilakh, nor do I think we should since their organization is not fundamentally different from the baseline assumptions of Necron forces.

Books like Deathwatch or Thousand Sons are fine because they have fundamentally different organizations that can't be emulated with the base book (for Deathwatch there's zero point if you can't organize your marines into a kill team, for Thousand Sons you can't run any of the iconic CSM units because they've been turned to dust). If we were to get, say, a Codex: Imperial Fists... what would even be in it? Nothing that would not make just as much sense if it was available to the marine faction as a whole. We already have this problem with the less distinctive marine books that currently exist (looking at you, Librarian Dreadnought).

It's fine, no harm done.

And yes, you're right about the likelihood of Games-Workshop giving preferential treatment to our power armored super friends. It's how they've worked in the past & is probably likely how they will continue to work in the future. How much of that is demand driving supply, and how much is supply influencing demand is a debate as old as the Necrons, but either way, it often leaves Xeno collectors out in the Void, and that's not really kosher.

The situation with certain sub-factions not having enough unique flair to warrant a book of their own, is certainly true now, but the same was true of the Dark Angels, Blood Angels & Space Wolves at some point, and (notwithstanding the argument that these chapters still don't justify their own books) the same could be done for Nihilakh, Behemoth, Snake Bites, et cetera, with the right amount of time and determination.

Heck, writing it down like that does make me realize how ridiculously unrealistic such an ambition really is, but limitations of reality aside, who wouldn't want to see the amount of new model options and fluff that we could have as a result?

But returning to reality for a moment, now that we have Orks, and we know that Sisters are coming in the near future, that just leaves Genestealers, (which may even come before Sisters) and Ynnari if they still plan to keep them as their own thing, which their entry on the store would suggest, even if it is just one item. After that, I think it's likely that we'll get Emperor's Children and World Eaters based on a combination of rumor, and what we got for Thousand Sons and Death Guard. I really don't think it's likely (despite my earlier fantasizing) that Agents of the Imperium will be broken up any time soon, but I think it's possible that we see them get a few nice stratagems and faction abilities in their own book. Besides that, I should hope to see those factions that got a bit of a duff deal with the early codices (I understand Grey Knights are in a particularly dire situation) get a significant boost in the upcoming Chapter Approved, but now I'm straying back into wish list territory.

If Khorne and Slaanesh were going to get codices they'd have put descriptions of the legions in the BrB. Note how only TS and DG got that treatment? Cult Codices might happen in 9th.

 darkcloak wrote:
If Khorne and Slaanesh were going to get codices they'd have put descriptions of the legions in the BrB. Note how only TS and DG got that treatment? Cult Codices might happen in 9th.

I don't think you could say that with any certainty. You're assuming zero pragmatism on the matter.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its amazing how absolutely everything has to revolve around three Chapters........and F the rest of the 40k universe.

Agreed.
Consolidated SM codex would mean that Black Dragon would be able to roll proper Dragon Claws, but space wolves and blood angels would complain SO SO much about how unfair it is that wulfen and death company have to share their rules with each other, and even worse with the Black Dragon nobodies, under the common "mutated close-combat marines".
Similarly White Scars would have access to the fast tanks of the blood angels and to the elite bikers of the dark angels which would be SO UNFAIR, because then the Mongol-inspired Space Marines would be allowed to be FAST, and that's bad!