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 Valkyrie wrote:


Points Decrease
- Hopefully most of the FW stuff to make it playable again.

Haha. They were specifically increased to make them UNplayable. GW isn't going to reverse that. They are happy selling those for collectors but gamers they want to spend same money into plastic instead.

Personally I'd love to see the Khorne FW stuff get decrease in points. Blood Slaughterer, Kytan Ravager, Arch Daemon all down. I'd also like to see something done about the Decimators melee arms, something like what dreadnoughts get where the second arm is reduced if they're both melee because +94 points for mediocre melee is way to expensive. I'd also like to see something for Terminators to make them playable, and of course land raider points drop.

For nerfs I'd love to see Papa Smurf get stats change to 10 wounds and Castellan points go up. I'd also like something for shining Spears, diss cannons, grotesque.

 chimeara wrote:
Personally I'd love to see the Khorne FW stuff get decrease in points. Blood Slaughterer, Kytan Ravager, Arch Daemon all down. I'd also like to see something done about the Decimators melee arms, something like what dreadnoughts get where the second arm is reduced if they're both melee because +94 points for mediocre melee is way to expensive. I'd also like to see something for Terminators to make them playable, and of course land raider points drop.

For nerfs I'd love to see Papa Smurf get stats change to 10 wounds and Castellan points go up. I'd also like something for shining Spears, diss cannons, grotesque.

Why just the Khorne Stuff?
Why not first decrease the points of lists like DKoK, R&H, Elysians, Eldar Corsairs?
Those are all even less playable. Not to mention other daemon engines and especially questionable are the Helltalons and Hellblades.

I expect they'll disappoint us all again, add another nerf to melee
And kick ynnari players again while they are down.

hobojebus wrote:
I expect they'll disappoint us all again, add another nerf to melee
And kick ynnari players again while they are down.

Anyone expecting a magical document that suddenly solves every issue we have with the game deserves to be disappointed frankly!

They aren't going to touch soup, at best there'll be minor CP tweaks. They aren't going to make sweeping reforms to how elite infantry perform.

We'll get some tweaks. Hopefully a few units we like but that underperform will be better than they were. Hopefully the strongest units in the competitive scene will get reigned in a little.

That's all I'm hoping for realistically.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Personally I'd love to see the Khorne FW stuff get decrease in points. Blood Slaughterer, Kytan Ravager, Arch Daemon all down. I'd also like to see something done about the Decimators melee arms, something like what dreadnoughts get where the second arm is reduced if they're both melee because +94 points for mediocre melee is way to expensive. I'd also like to see something for Terminators to make them playable, and of course land raider points drop.

For nerfs I'd love to see Papa Smurf get stats change to 10 wounds and Castellan points go up. I'd also like something for shining Spears, diss cannons, grotesque.

Why just the Khorne Stuff?
Why not first decrease the points of lists like DKoK, R&H, Elysians, Eldar Corsairs?
Those are all even less playable. Not to mention other daemon engines and especially questionable are the Helltalons and Hellblades.

Because that's what would affect me the most. I'm being selfish lol.

Honestly though, I'd like to see some semblance of a reversal to the points increase to the FW stuff. While simultaneously decrease the stuff that needs it but didn't get touched last year. Most of the Daemon engines are overpriced, chaos planes are overpriced arch daemons are grossly overpriced, heck I'd even like to see standard greater daemons get a reduction.

I only expect points changes and maybe also some Stratagems points changes.

DE will probably get a little point increase. and generally Eldars.

GK needs a buff.

SM a small point decrease in some units ( Sm is my army, would like to see an improve for Terminator but there we need rules change for them). More things but I don`t want to be another SM player crying.

IK will see a smal points increase.

Necrons point decrease of some units.

And for the rest of factions some small point changes.

I really would like to see in this CA a big balance but, we know GW will do something good and something bad. I still have hope.

The Newman wrote:
I fully expect GW to continue proving that they don't have a single clue what they're doing.

I'm hoping that they'll do something drastic to address what a terrible spot Marines are in, but I won't be a bit surprised if vanilla marines get nerfed down to GK levels and GK get rendered completely unplayable and GW puts out some sort of unintentionally hilarious statement about the awsome changes they made to help basic Marines and GK compete in the current meta because they write rules like a spastic chimp with the self awareness of frog spawn.

I also expect this thread to wind up as 20+ pages of such utter bile directed at GW and 40k that any new player who comes here looking for advice and reads through it will come away convinced that they're much better off going back to WoW or LoL or whatever they were doing before the cool plastic mens caught their attention.

My favourite part about this post is that it lacks self-awareness.

Everybody talks about SM, Custodes and stuff like that...

But has anyone noticed in what sorry state admech is currently?

I mean, you go Cawlstar gunline or GO HOME. Synodian dragoons are the other only options being SPAMMED to the max, yet most of the codex is utter

-2 Hq choices, canticles are complitely random, OR 2 CP/battleround (unless you cawl it)
- Reroll aura dominus ONLY in shooting
- Wound boost is non existant, only 1 relic with 18 inch range, for reroll wound rolls of 1 BUT FW specific
- you either go repairman or your warlord is useless
- Skitarii pay premium (7 or 8 pts for vanguard) for +1 BS and the 6++
- transport is non existent
- meelee choices are like paper, no meelee boost besides canticles
- Lack of overall synergy
- most of the codex, besides some unites are just plain MEH!!!
- Kastelan robot is must pick with Cawl, but if there is no cawl its utter MEH
- 2 CP + minimum 120 pts tax for trying to improve BS of the robots for 1 shooting to 3+

What do you guys think, is this ok? Or am I just being too negative?

New relics, warlord traits, strats for sisters and updated entries for some select models.

New missions - mainly progressive scoring and mixed objective/kill point ones.

Hopefully some new terrain guideline but I suspect not.

Perhaps some campaign tools - character advancement, mission reward table or something else along those lines.

Rules - Solidify all the beta rules, add new rule for not stacking negative hit modifiers or always hitting on 6s, add command point bonus for only using a single focuses faction keyword in your army. I.E. only Tau or BA or Catachan.

Unit rulespoints:

Give marine vehicles a chapter trait!!!!!

Droppods can DS on turn one.

Add an ability for all models with the terminator keyword to ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons and using certain melee weapons. Plus perhaps reduce all damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Give all landraiders the ability to retreat from combat and still shoot or shoot whilst in combat.

Flamers and melta drop in points a little.

A raft or point drops for marines, too many to list.

Make it so chaos cultists/zombies/Tzaangors can't benefit from VotLW strat.

Change the Commissar moral rule....again!

Increase the cost of lots of cheap infantry - Guardsmen, cultists, kabalites etc... need to reduce the power of just fielding more bodies.

Increase cost of various Drukarii stuff - Dissi cannons, Grots, Talos and perhaps change the profets of flesh ability.

Slight increases to various eldar units.

Reduce the cost of loads of necron stuff

Reduce points on GK stuff and give them access to marine psychic powers.

Inquisition - not even mentioned :(

Tau Battlesuits reduced a bit in cost.

Big shooty knight increased in points.

Daemons given a few point reductions, hopefully to all the greater daemons.

Admech given some points drops

I suspect they will hit some of these and miss others but it'll be better than doing nothing.

4-6 pages of Grey Knight rules rewrites, errata and point changes. That is what I would like to get. But the way GW is acting it may as well be 2 pages of nothing. I have little faith in GW after the lack of a FAQ update for GK.

CA is unnecessary if we have the digital edition, right? I have a digital CD book; I dont need to buy this at all, right?

Lemondish wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I fully expect GW to continue proving that they don't have a single clue what they're doing.

I'm hoping that they'll do something drastic to address what a terrible spot Marines are in, but I won't be a bit surprised if vanilla marines get nerfed down to GK levels and GK get rendered completely unplayable and GW puts out some sort of unintentionally hilarious statement about the awsome changes they made to help basic Marines and GK compete in the current meta because they write rules like a spastic chimp with the self awareness of frog spawn.

I also expect this thread to wind up as 20+ pages of such utter bile directed at GW and 40k that any new player who comes here looking for advice and reads through it will come away convinced that they're much better off going back to WoW or LoL or whatever they were doing before the cool plastic mens caught their attention.

My favourite part about this post is that it lacks self-awareness.

I invoke Poe's Law.

While I do sincerely hope GW addresses Space Marines and I don't have a lot of faith that GW recognizes just how much of a boost they actually need (or their ability fix it without breaking anything else), Chapter Approved and the FAQs are worlds away from the GW that published 5th edition when there were armies still limping along on their 3rd edition codexes.

 WisdomLS wrote:
New relics, warlord traits, strats for sisters and updated entries for some select models.

New missions - mainly progressive scoring and mixed objective/kill point ones.

Hopefully some new terrain guideline but I suspect not.

Perhaps some campaign tools - character advancement, mission reward table or something else along those lines.

Rules - Solidify all the beta rules, add new rule for not stacking negative hit modifiers or always hitting on 6s, add command point bonus for only using a single focuses faction keyword in your army. I.E. only Tau or BA or Catachan.

Unit rulespoints:

Give marine vehicles a chapter trait!!!!!

Droppods can DS on turn one.

Add an ability for all models with the terminator keyword to ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons and using certain melee weapons. Plus perhaps reduce all damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Give all landraiders the ability to retreat from combat and still shoot or shoot whilst in combat.

Flamers and melta drop in points a little.

A raft or point drops for marines, too many to list.

Make it so chaos cultists/zombies/Tzaangors can't benefit from VotLW strat.

Change the Commissar moral rule....again!

Increase the cost of lots of cheap infantry - Guardsmen, cultists, kabalites etc... need to reduce the power of just fielding more bodies.

Increase cost of various Drukarii stuff - Dissi cannons, Grots, Talos and perhaps change the profets of flesh ability.

Slight increases to various eldar units.

Reduce the cost of loads of necron stuff

Reduce points on GK stuff and give them access to marine psychic powers.

Inquisition - not even mentioned :(

Tau Battlesuits reduced a bit in cost.

Big shooty knight increased in points.

Daemons given a few point reductions, hopefully to all the greater daemons.

Admech given some points drops

I suspect they will hit some of these and miss others but it'll be better than doing nothing.

Agree with the Chapter Tactics for SM vehicles. For what they cost we need it.

Primordus wrote:Everybody talks about SM, Custodes and stuff like that...

But has anyone noticed in what sorry state admech is currently?

I mean, you go Cawlstar gunline or GO HOME. Synodian dragoons are the other only options being SPAMMED to the max, yet most of the codex is utter

-2 Hq choices, canticles are complitely random, OR 2 CP/battleround (unless you cawl it)
- Reroll aura dominus ONLY in shooting
- Wound boost is non existant, only 1 relic with 18 inch range, for reroll wound rolls of 1 BUT FW specific
- you either go repairman or your warlord is useless
- Skitarii pay premium (7 or 8 pts for vanguard) for +1 BS and the 6++
- transport is non existent
- meelee choices are like paper, no meelee boost besides canticles
- Lack of overall synergy
- most of the codex, besides some unites are just plain MEH!!!
- Kastelan robot is must pick with Cawl, but if there is no cawl its utter MEH
- 2 CP + minimum 120 pts tax for trying to improve BS of the robots for 1 shooting to 3+

What do you guys think, is this ok? Or am I just being too negative?

I think admech needs help, but much like custodes they were designed with soup in mind. I actually think they are in a better place than custodes in that they do several different playstyles in the medium power level/local metas ( not much beyond cawl-lot though for tournaments admitadly, much like jetbike spam is custodes only option there for mono faction) personally I like what they have but they need some more models to really fill them out as a monofactions. I play both and actually like allying my mech with custodes, they compliment eachother well.

timetowaste85 wrote:CA is unnecessary if we have the digital edition, right? I have a digital CD book; I dont need to buy this at all, right?

its GW I doubt they will add it in to digital for free. I don't think they did in 2017, its the yearly way to squeeze out a few bucks in what could have been a erratta, but they do throw in new missions and some stuff that makes it worth it.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Spoiler:

New relics, warlord traits, strats for sisters and updated entries for some select models.

New missions - mainly progressive scoring and mixed objective/kill point ones.

Hopefully some new terrain guideline but I suspect not.

Perhaps some campaign tools - character advancement, mission reward table or something else along those lines.

Rules - Solidify all the beta rules, add new rule for not stacking negative hit modifiers or always hitting on 6s, add command point bonus for only using a single focuses faction keyword in your army. I.E. only Tau or BA or Catachan.

Unit rulespoints:

Give marine vehicles a chapter trait!!!!!

Droppods can DS on turn one.

Add an ability for all models with the terminator keyword to ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons and using certain melee weapons. Plus perhaps reduce all damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Give all landraiders the ability to retreat from combat and still shoot or shoot whilst in combat.

Flamers and melta drop in points a little.

A raft or point drops for marines, too many to list.

Make it so chaos cultists/zombies/Tzaangors can't benefit from VotLW strat.

Change the Commissar moral rule....again!

Increase the cost of lots of cheap infantry - Guardsmen, cultists, kabalites etc... need to reduce the power of just fielding more bodies.

Increase cost of various Drukarii stuff - Dissi cannons, Grots, Talos and perhaps change the profets of flesh ability.

Slight increases to various eldar units.

Reduce the cost of loads of necron stuff

Reduce points on GK stuff and give them access to marine psychic powers.

Inquisition - not even mentioned :(

Tau Battlesuits reduced a bit in cost.

Big shooty knight increased in points.

Daemons given a few point reductions, hopefully to all the greater daemons.

Admech given some points drops

I suspect they will hit some of these and miss others but it'll be better than doing nothing.

I agree with every single point, which probably means that none of them will be in CA...

What I hope we get and what we do get are completely different things, however, as a necron player I am really hoping for:

a 10%-20% point reduction across the board.
Fixing our random AT weapons to make them a tad more reliable.
Adding Quantum Shielding to Fliers
Adding a 4++ to monolith
Reducing the CP of Enhanced Reanimation Protocols, buffing Entropic Strike to be all attacks, and generally re-tooling our CP costs on some of our other less great stratagems.
Buff the ever loving hell out of Tesla Destructors, they literally serve no real purpose in our army.

DudleyGrim wrote:
What I hope we get and what we do get are completely different things, however, as a necron player I am really hoping for:

a 10%-20% point reduction across the board.
Fixing our random AT weapons to make them a tad more reliable.
Adding Quantum Shielding to Fliers
Adding a 4++ to monolith
Reducing the CP of Enhanced Reanimation Protocols, buffing Entropic Strike to be all attacks, and generally re-tooling our CP costs on some of our other less great stratagems.
Buff the ever loving hell out of Tesla Destructors, they literally serve no real purpose in our army.

As far as point reductions go, a lot of stuff certainly needs it. Though some units, such as Wraiths and Tesseract Vaults are probably fine as is (probably Destroyers too).

Necrons certainly are very inconsistent with their anti-tank weapons, but maybe that was intended. Still, the most obvious outlier for terrible performance is the Death Ray (and Heat Ray too come to think of it) but again it might be intended to be an army weakness.

Quantum Shielding shouldn't be added to the fliers. They have issues, but survivability isn't one of them atm.

Monolith shouldn't have an invuln save. High AP weapons should be the answer to large armoured targets. The Monolith will probably remain hilariously unplayable.

I have no idea why Enhanced Reanimation Protocols costs 2 Command Points. I would be hesitant to even spend 1 CP on it. Entropic Strike is a weird one, as anything that lets you ignore invulns (such as Mortal Wounds) should be used very sparingly.

Tesla Destructors are the literal worst atm. Especially as they can have Tesla never trigger if they suffer any negatives to their to-hit rolls. It also makes the Annihilation Barge really bad at killing anything.

Overall though, I wouldn't expect any large changes to come with Chapter Approved. Maybe some points changes to a couple units, but nothing major. The main selling point they're sticking to is the new missions and beta Sisters codex. Doesn't really help the game, but it might sell more copies. We'll have to see though, as we don't really know for sure what the content even could be until we get closer to its release date.

The problem is there are so many minor tweaks needed that it's too much of an undertaking to make it worthwhile without a whole rewrite. It's never going to happen. If they just address the major problems, it would be a start.
Expecting a sweeping change to marines is just pure fantasy, it's not going to happen. You may get a points change for some weapons/vehicles/support units, but the basic marine is not going to change. It can't change, because you then have to basically redo the Codex....then Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves. No thank you. Dropping points on a meltagun or flamer is much easier to do, but I don't expect it to happen. GW seems to price the weapon on it's max potential rather than it's average result. See Eldar suncannon for example. It's not horribly overcosted if you roll a 12 for shots, but it is almost x2 expensive if you roll 7 or, heaven forbid, less.
Grey Knights points probably won't change much either, not without a new codex in which case they can start with boosting the base Attacks first, then address the terrible strategems, relics, traits etc. I don't see Grey Knights really improving too much without a complete codex overhaul.

Ynnari just need to be left alone and given their own codex. You just can't keep chipping away at them every FAQ/CA hoping for change.

The thing about Marines is GW could probably fix them with a minimum of individual unit tweaks.

Adding a 5+ FNP and Machine Spirit (or whatever the infantry equivalent is) as army-wide rules to go with ATSKNF and removing the restrictions on what Chapter Traits apply to would probably get Marines 90% of the way to where they need to be. They'd have to switch the Iron Hands chapter trait to a 6+ invuln because the current trait would be redundant.

From there it's just a handful of tweaks to obviously overpriced stuff like Centurions and Melta weapons.

While I'd like to see some points decreases across the board for my DA, what I'd like to see most is something to either rein in Soup or to level the playing field between Soup and mono-faction.

The most obvious solution to Soup would be a rule that states that a detachment's CP can only be spent on units from that detachment, or a little more generously on units that share the same army Keyword - to allow a Battalion's CP to be used in another detachment from the same codex. There would still be reasons to field Soup, but not as much.

Alternately, boost mono-faction armies in some way. The easiest thing would be to give a mono-faction army a bonus to CP - +5 seems obvious, since one can get +5 CP for fielding the Loyal 32. Alternate ideas would be bonuses to the roll to go first, rerolls during game (though players are going to build lists with auras that provide these), maybe even a strat or two available to mono-faction lists, but I think the bonus CP would be the the most effective way of leveling the playing field without materially changing the benefit Soup currently gives.

I really wish they would give Terminators no minus for moving and firing heavy weapons. If I deep strike a 500 odd point unit on to the battlefield to shoot 4 krak missiles (TURN 2 AT THE EARLIEST NOW) I'd expect them to be able to hit better than guardsmen.

The Newman wrote:
The thing about Marines is GW could probably fix them with a minimum of individual unit tweaks.

Adding a 5+ FNP and Machine Spirit (or whatever the infantry equivalent is) as army-wide rules to go with ATSKNF and removing the restrictions on what Chapter Traits apply to would probably get Marines 90% of the way to where they need to be. They'd have to switch the Iron Hands chapter trait to a 6+ invuln because the current trait would be redundant.

Then Death Guard would be stranded.

The Newman wrote:
Adding a 5+ FNP and Machine Spirit (or whatever the infantry equivalent is) as army-wide rules to go with ATSKNF and removing the restrictions on what Chapter Traits apply to would probably get Marines 90% of the way to where they need to be. They'd have to switch the Iron Hands chapter trait to a 6+ invuln because the current trait would be redundant.

It would also more than double the number of rolls you need to make for them defensively, and 6++ on a power armoured is already redundant (see any sisters of battle game).
All units already have split fire in 8th, unless you were thinking of no move and fire penalties?

A.T. wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Adding a 5+ FNP and Machine Spirit (or whatever the infantry equivalent is) as army-wide rules to go with ATSKNF and removing the restrictions on what Chapter Traits apply to would probably get Marines 90% of the way to where they need to be. They'd have to switch the Iron Hands chapter trait to a 6+ invuln because the current trait would be redundant.

It would also more than double the number of rolls you need to make for them defensively, and 6++ on a power armoured is already redundant (see any sisters of battle game).
All units already have split fire in 8th, unless you were thinking of no move and fire penalties?

Death Guard have to make FNP rolls for every wound and it doesn't seem to stop anyone from playing them.

No move and fire penalties is what Machine Spirit does.

You have a point about a 6++ though, there aren't that many AP4 weapons out there. Maybe a 5++ with a +1 (to a max of 3++) instead for units that have an invuln on their own?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Then Death Guard would be stranded.

Death Guard are also T5, have cheap access to always-on cover, much better special weapon selections, and Plague Weapons, all for 4 more points. And they exist in a faction with cheaper chaff and better psychic powers.

I expect:
- 6 SoB Warlord trait
- A number of SoB relics
- A higher number of SoB stratagems
- A rework of the Shield of Faith mechanics to make it less situational (currently only useful when shot with AP4 weapons and you are not in cover, and with psychic powers with PL5 that get passed on a roll of exactly 5 and then if you roll a 6).
- Maybe a rework to the Act of Faith mechanics to make it work on more models of the army and scale better. Currently only useful on Celestine, Seraphim and Retributors...
Oh, and I guess a bunch of special missions and special battlefields with random tables. You know the kind.

This maybe a stupid question, but when I asked at my store I just got laughed at. And my own expiriance with GW update is limited to 2017-2018. How often do GW fixs are something else then nerfs? Did in the past they buff units or made changes to old units/models to make them more useful without an edition change switching up things?

Karol wrote:
This maybe a stupid question, but when I asked at my store I just got laughed at. And my own expiriance with GW update is limited to 2017-2018. How often do GW fixs are something else then nerfs? Did in the past they buff units or made changes to old units/models to make them more useful without an edition change switching up things?

Last ca cut the cost on some equipment and units, making them somewhat viable. Maybee you get lucky and they blanket shave the cost of your GK by 10%

Karol wrote:
This maybe a stupid question, but when I asked at my store I just got laughed at. And my own expiriance with GW update is limited to 2017-2018. How often do GW fixs are something else then nerfs? Did in the past they buff units or made changes to old units/models to make them more useful without an edition change switching up things?

Broadly speaking GW have rarely done balance changes at all, usually only with codex releases. In the last CA they did buff some things minorly, but generally they dont do much for poorly performing units.

Karol wrote:
This maybe a stupid question, but when I asked at my store I just got laughed at. And my own expiriance with GW update is limited to 2017-2018. How often do GW fixs are something else then nerfs? Did in the past they buff units or made changes to old units/models to make them more useful without an edition change switching up things?

GW trying to change points is a new thing with 8th.