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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...you people who say marines need damage buffs not durability buffs just have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no idea.

The data I presented a page back or so sort of indicates the opposite - sort of.

Now you can drop the points of a marine which by way of math increases both their relative durability and damage output, but not likely damage to a comparable number that other models have.

BobbyG is still a thing, of course, but lots of marines do not have him as an option.

The problem is almost everything in the codex assumes they are under Bobby G aura in their points while GW have just repeatedly jacked up his points to borderline unplayable against competitive lists.
Fundamentally Bobby G needs reworked but thats GW's screw up
Look at the buff DW had to get to be mildly playable

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...you people who say marines need damage buffs not durability buffs just have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no idea.

The data I presented a page back or so sort of indicates the opposite - sort of.

Now you can drop the points of a marine which by way of math increases both their relative durability and damage output, but not likely damage to a comparable number that other models have.

BobbyG is still a thing, of course, but lots of marines do not have him as an option.

Marines in general have access to good auras. Reroll all hits is very common. Often reroll wounds of some sort. Not to mention across the board solid BS. Offense is not the issue. I can take 10 hellblasters and merk pratically everything by sitting in in auras. The number of units that wipe that squad getting like 50%+ return on points per turn is astounding though.

I can take 3 plasma inceptors and put out insane firepower - but I'll probably kill 1-2 inceptors in the process and have a 2 wound model remaining after 175 points of expenditure.

The issue is defense. Even for intercessors. Their DPP is low but you can nearly double it with auras - what can't you do? Stop a ravager or battle cannon from removing 50ish points everytime they shoot at you. Again - defense is the issue.


Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

How many regular plague marines do you see though?

Really its two issues - as said. Basic tactical marines have terrible offensive power. They are crap at shooting. They are crap in melee. They are however "tough enough" for their points.
The same for basic cheapo intercessors.

A devastator squad - or hellblasters - has okay damage output. They can be buffed up. They are however fragile for their points. They die in droves to moderate strength and AP weapons, D2 weapons and Mortal wounds.

A tactical marine/assault marine/CSM is still going to suck even if he can reroll his armour save. He doesn't kill anything. 24/7 Guilliman aura? Okay he's reasonable now. But Bobby-G is an albatross that needs to go.

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

How many regular plague marines do you see though?

Really its two issues - as said. Basic tactical marines have terrible offensive power. They are crap at shooting. They are crap in melee. They are however "tough enough" for their points.
The same for basic cheapo intercessors.

A devastator squad - or hellblasters - has okay damage output. They can be buffed up. They are however fragile for their points. They die in droves to moderate strength and AP weapons, D2 weapons and Mortal wounds.

A tactical marine/assault marine/CSM is still going to suck even if he can reroll his armour save. He doesn't kill anything. 24/7 Guilliman aura? Okay he's reasonable now. But Bobby-G is an albatross that needs to go.

How are they tough enough for their points if - they expose themselves to be viable targets for special and heavy weapons BUT don't even have impressive numbers compared to cheaper infantry units against small arms?

I agree Gman is an albatross though. I'd be happy to remove him from my case if the rest of the codex got fixed.

The aura scheme is awful. I wish it would die. Casting loses a lot of games.

Agree. This game would be a lot more fun if Auras were only present for those it's their schtick (Synapse). How can you play Marines like Marines when they're dependent on castling to be effective? How can they not be dependent on castling when auras are the only way to make them effective.

In the end, the answer is the shaft. I expect ca will bring the shaft.

I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...you people who say marines need damage buffs not durability buffs just have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no idea.

The data I presented a page back or so sort of indicates the opposite - sort of.

Now you can drop the points of a marine which by way of math increases both their relative durability and damage output, but not likely damage to a comparable number that other models have.

BobbyG is still a thing, of course, but lots of marines do not have him as an option.

Marines in general have access to good auras. Reroll all hits is very common. Often reroll wounds of some sort. Not to mention across the board solid BS. Offense is not the issue. I can take 10 hellblasters and merk pratically everything by sitting in in auras. The number of units that wipe that squad getting like 50%+ return on points per turn is astounding though.

I can take 3 plasma inceptors and put out insane firepower - but I'll probably kill 1-2 inceptors in the process and have a 2 wound model remaining after 175 points of expenditure.

The issue is defense. Even for intercessors. Their DPP is low but you can nearly double it with auras - what can't you do? Stop a ravager or battle cannon from removing 50ish points everytime they shoot at you. Again - defense is the issue.


Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

You're getting a little too apples and oranges.

Hellblasters with full rerolls are great.

I think the focus is more on how useless the bog standard marine feels when put up against other standard no frills units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

The aura issue is exactly why I said the new independent character system is garbage right from day one.

Everyone was complaining about super friends armies and Death Stars. Yeah...all they needed to do was to make special rules only work for units with certain key words. Bam, I just fixed your problem.

Instead we got bs auras that only exacerbate the issue, now instead of one unit getting all the buffs, it’s the hold damn army. And now characters are being used for the opposite purpose to how they were initially intended. People don’t use commanders to get into the front lines, they’re just buffers that sit in the back now. How fething boring and unfluffy can you get?

That’s not even mentioning the janky character targeting rules that make no sense and are constantly being changed because they can’t figure out what to do with them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 240 pts vs 100 pts.

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 220 pts vs 100 pts.

More points but not the same output.

Auras are almost exclusively offense based, which means nothing for a large part of the cost of marines, which is durability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...you people who say marines need damage buffs not durability buffs just have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no idea.

The data I presented a page back or so sort of indicates the opposite - sort of.

Now you can drop the points of a marine which by way of math increases both their relative durability and damage output, but not likely damage to a comparable number that other models have.

BobbyG is still a thing, of course, but lots of marines do not have him as an option.

Marines in general have access to good auras. Reroll all hits is very common. Often reroll wounds of some sort. Not to mention across the board solid BS. Offense is not the issue. I can take 10 hellblasters and merk pratically everything by sitting in in auras. The number of units that wipe that squad getting like 50%+ return on points per turn is astounding though.

I can take 3 plasma inceptors and put out insane firepower - but I'll probably kill 1-2 inceptors in the process and have a 2 wound model remaining after 175 points of expenditure.

The issue is defense. Even for intercessors. Their DPP is low but you can nearly double it with auras - what can't you do? Stop a ravager or battle cannon from removing 50ish points everytime they shoot at you. Again - defense is the issue.


Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

The problem you are highlighting is not that marines have low durability, but the fact that marines have low damage except on a few glasscannon models, so marines list tend to use a lot of these and feel fragile as a consequence. If tac marines and intercessors had ok damage, you would use a lot of those and greatly increase the average durability of the lists.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
The aura issue is exactly why I said the new independent character system is garbage right from day one.

Everyone was complaining about super friends armies and Death Stars. Yeah...all they needed to do was to make special rules only work for units with certain key words. Bam, I just fixed your problem.

Instead we got bs auras that only exacerbate the issue, now instead of one unit getting all the buffs, it’s the hold damn army. And now characters are being used for the opposite purpose to how they were initially intended. People don’t use commanders to get into the front lines, they’re just buffers that sit in the back now. How fething boring and unfluffy can you get?

That’s not even mentioning the janky character targeting rules that make no sense and are constantly being changed because they can’t figure out what to do with them.

What? People don't use characters to get into the front lines?

Guess Smash Captains aren't a thing where you play.

When I said that I wish that marines had orders instead of auras, I din't mean they would necessarily have the exact same orders as the IG, merely that the system worked that way. It's just a better mechanic.

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 240 pts vs 100 pts.

Just want to fix this for you it is only ever going to be 10 marines in 2 units even with orders marines cost too much for anything but msu.
So its 130 pts of marines to 80 pts of guard or 120 pts of marines to 100 points of guard. Marines would still loose.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 220 pts vs 100 pts.

More points but not the same output.

Auras are almost exclusively offense based, which means nothing for a large part of the cost of marines, which is durability.

Is that a problem with the orders or just with marines in general?

Besides, right now 20 marines can put out 40*2/3*2/3*2/3= 12 W against GEQ,
20 Guard can put out 40*1/2*1/2*2/3 = 6.6 W against GEQ. So in order to match the output of Marines, the Guard need to take 2 squads per full marine squad, which means that a Captain buffing 2 marine squads is buffing 4 Infantry Squads worth of firepower. (more or less)

Of course, the fact that marines only have 2x the firepower and 2.5x the durability of guardsmen (against boltguns, because against plasma marines have only marginally better durability) is bad since they are 3x the cost.

Lemondish wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
The aura issue is exactly why I said the new independent character system is garbage right from day one.

Everyone was complaining about super friends armies and Death Stars. Yeah...all they needed to do was to make special rules only work for units with certain key words. Bam, I just fixed your problem.

Instead we got bs auras that only exacerbate the issue, now instead of one unit getting all the buffs, it’s the hold damn army. And now characters are being used for the opposite purpose to how they were initially intended. People don’t use commanders to get into the front lines, they’re just buffers that sit in the back now. How fething boring and unfluffy can you get?

That’s not even mentioning the janky character targeting rules that make no sense and are constantly being changed because they can’t figure out what to do with them.

What? People don't use characters to get into the front lines?

Guess Smash Captains aren't a thing where you play.

Personally I'm holding mine back as long as possible now. They really cant get to the targets anymore.

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 240 pts vs 100 pts.

Just want to fix this for you it is only ever going to be 10 marines in 2 units even with orders marines cost too much for anything but msu.
So its 130 pts of marines to 80 pts of guard or 120 pts of marines to 100 points of guard. Marines would still loose.

Hypothetically, if Marines were good and the orders were worthwhile, would you still only bring MSU, or would you try to max squads to get more benefits? At the very least there's some incentive to bring max squads for a change whereas right now max squads are always worse.
Also, there's nothing stopping Captains from having 3 orders or whatever due to their cost.

Dandelion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 240 pts vs 100 pts.

Just want to fix this for you it is only ever going to be 10 marines in 2 units even with orders marines cost too much for anything but msu.
So its 130 pts of marines to 80 pts of guard or 120 pts of marines to 100 points of guard. Marines would still loose.

Hypothetically, if Marines were good and the orders were worthwhile, would you still only bring MSU, or would you try to max squads to get more benefits? At the very least there's some incentive to bring max squads for a change whereas right now max squads are always worse.
Also, there's nothing stopping Captains from having 3 orders or whatever due to their cost.

If marines ever had strategums worth playing yeah you would still probably be stuck on MSU as double battalion is 400 points in HQ's add in some anti armour and your in almost 1k add the msu and your 400 ish points thats still pretty bad given you can get the same CP from 400 points of guard and a castellan for the rest of that 1k even with 5ppm guard and a 700 point castellen I would still say marines will need something to be worth while taking over msu.
Custodes show this very problem as it stands and a custodian guard squad is much better than 5 tacs

Ice_can wrote:

If marines ever had strategums worth playing yeah you would still probably be stuck on MSU as double battalion is 400 points in HQ's add in some anti armour and your in almost 1k add the msu and your 400 ish points thats still pretty bad given you can get the same CP from 400 points of guard and a castellan for the rest of that 1k even with 5ppm guard and a 700 point castellen I would still say marines will need something to be worth while taking over msu.

Could you break that down a bit? Right now it's kind of hard to read, so I'm not 100% sure what you're saying.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man...you people who say marines need damage buffs not durability buffs just have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no idea.

The data I presented a page back or so sort of indicates the opposite - sort of.

Now you can drop the points of a marine which by way of math increases both their relative durability and damage output, but not likely damage to a comparable number that other models have.

BobbyG is still a thing, of course, but lots of marines do not have him as an option.

Marines in general have access to good auras. Reroll all hits is very common. Often reroll wounds of some sort. Not to mention across the board solid BS. Offense is not the issue. I can take 10 hellblasters and merk pratically everything by sitting in in auras. The number of units that wipe that squad getting like 50%+ return on points per turn is astounding though.

I can take 3 plasma inceptors and put out insane firepower - but I'll probably kill 1-2 inceptors in the process and have a 2 wound model remaining after 175 points of expenditure.

The issue is defense. Even for intercessors. Their DPP is low but you can nearly double it with auras - what can't you do? Stop a ravager or battle cannon from removing 50ish points everytime they shoot at you. Again - defense is the issue.


Also - is it any surprise that the best marine faction - is the one with the least offense and the most defense. DG.

You're getting a little too apples and oranges.

Hellblasters with full rerolls are great.

I think the focus is more on how useless the bog standard marine feels when put up against other standard no frills units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

No I think you are looking at it the wrong way. A hell-blaster is just an intercessor with a better gun. A devastator is just a tactical marine. So on and so forth.

People who are suggesting marines would be fine with an offense boost need to realize - you'd have to buff every weapon in the codex to actually do that. You'd then have to buff every special snowflakes marines weapons too. Wouldn't it just be easier to drop the points of the base marine? Or give everything in power armor a special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the IG style orders are way better system. Thy affect the set amount of units and you actually need to make some choices which order to use on which unit. Easier to balance, more interesting gameplay. I wish marines had orders instead of auras.

It sounds nice, but then commanders are dirt cheap compared to marine HQs. The marines would need to buff four units instead of two, which is probably the average that they do currently.

But at the same time, each marine unit is worth more than a guard squad. A captain buffing 20 marines is buffing 260pts worth of models, while a CC only buffs 80pts of models. Even if marines go down in price to 12 pts and guard go up to 5 pts, that's still 240 pts vs 100 pts.

Just want to fix this for you it is only ever going to be 10 marines in 2 units even with orders marines cost too much for anything but msu.
So its 130 pts of marines to 80 pts of guard or 120 pts of marines to 100 points of guard. Marines would still loose.

Hypothetically, if Marines were good and the orders were worthwhile, would you still only bring MSU, or would you try to max squads to get more benefits? At the very least there's some incentive to bring max squads for a change whereas right now max squads are always worse.
Also, there's nothing stopping Captains from having 3 orders or whatever due to their cost.

I bring full 10 man intercessors because it makes it easier to spread around auras. Ancient banner makes you fearless anyways - and it gives you the best overwatch (which with reroll all hits actually puts out decent damage.)

You people need to accept that Marines are impossible to fix because Marines aren't the cause of the issue. The cause is the insane leap in power of shooty units over the last 3 editions. Consider that a combat squad with a lascannon and a plasma gun used to be the top cheese that power gamers spammed. How laughable is that unit now when every new model has more guns on it than a Land Raider? This is an issue with the core vision (or lack thereof) of game design at GW and no amount of stats or points tweaks will fix it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You people need to accept that Marines are impossible to fix because Marines aren't the cause of the issue. The cause is the insane leap in power of shooty units over the last 3 editions. Consider that a combat squad with a lascannon and a plasma gun used to be the top cheese that power gamers spammed. How laughable is that unit now when every new model has more guns on it than a Land Raider? This is an issue with the core vision (or lack thereof) of game design at GW and no amount of stats or points tweaks will fix it.

That was never cheese - it was just the best option available. Salamanders landspeeders with 2x MM in 5th ed- that was cheese. Look how good that unit is now? The standard marine has always sucked. In literally every eddition I've played (started in 4th). I think my first post on dakka was asking why marines aren't better. I was like 16 or something. Almost 20 years later here we are. The marine still sucks. It's not power creep - it's brainlessness. Before in other edditions you were kinda forced to bring min squads of marines to play the army. Now you can just skip them. Guess what - everyone skips them.

Dandelion wrote:

Is that a problem with the orders or just with marines in general?

Besides, right now 20 marines can put out 40*2/3*2/3*2/3= 12 W against GEQ,
20 Guard can put out 40*1/2*1/2*2/3 = 6.6 W against GEQ. So in order to match the output of Marines, the Guard need to take 2 squads per full marine squad, which means that a Captain buffing 2 marine squads is buffing 4 Infantry Squads worth of firepower. (more or less)

Of course, the fact that marines only have 2x the firepower and 2.5x the durability of guardsmen (against boltguns, because against plasma marines have only marginally better durability) is bad since they are 3x the cost.

You're not analyzing that correctly. In fact I find that to be a really bizarre method.

10 marines = 130 points 20 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 5.9 Commander, 2x 10 IS = 120 points 80 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 13.3

Even if you added a captain to those marines they're not coming anywhere close to that efficiency.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

No I think you are looking at it the wrong way. A hell-blaster is just an intercessor with a better gun. A devastator is just a tactical marine. So on and so forth.

People who are suggesting marines would be fine with an offense boost need to realize - you'd have to buff every weapon in the codex to actually do that. You'd then have to buff every special snowflakes marines weapons too. Wouldn't it just be easier to drop the points of the base marine? Or give everything in power armor a special rule?

That's...not true.

A hellblaster is not an intercessor. They have two different slots and weapon options. Tac marines are also not devastators who can take 4 heavies as opposed to one.

The same base cost does not make them the same unit.

And I fail to see why other weapons would need to be buffed to accomplish the goal.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You people need to accept that Marines are impossible to fix because Marines aren't the cause of the issue. The cause is the insane leap in power of shooty units over the last 3 editions. Consider that a combat squad with a lascannon and a plasma gun used to be the top cheese that power gamers spammed. How laughable is that unit now when every new model has more guns on it than a Land Raider? This is an issue with the core vision (or lack thereof) of game design at GW and no amount of stats or points tweaks will fix it.

Incorrect. Points can fix it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You people need to accept that Marines are impossible to fix because Marines aren't the cause of the issue. The cause is the insane leap in power of shooty units over the last 3 editions. Consider that a combat squad with a lascannon and a plasma gun used to be the top cheese that power gamers spammed. How laughable is that unit now when every new model has more guns on it than a Land Raider? This is an issue with the core vision (or lack thereof) of game design at GW and no amount of stats or points tweaks will fix it.

That was never cheese - it was just the best option available. Salamanders landspeeders with 2x MM in 5th ed- that was cheese. Look how good that unit is now? The standard marine has always sucked. In literally every eddition I've played (started in 4th). I think my first post on dakka was asking why marines aren't better. I was like 16 or something. Almost 20 years later here we are. The marine still sucks. It's not power creep - it's brainlessness. Before in other edditions you were kinda forced to bring min squads of marines to play the army. Now you can just skip them. Guess what - everyone skips them.

Marines were the worst army in 2nd ed.

 Crimson wrote:
When I said that I wish that marines had orders instead of auras, I din't mean they would necessarily have the exact same orders as the IG, merely that the system worked that way. It's just a better mechanic.

I could get behind this.

Each faction gets orders/free strategems for having certain units on the board. You could even have to be the first 1-3 X strategems each game are free for each you have on the board. Limit the free stuff to mono faction so there is some kind of incentive against soup. For example, for each ethereal you control on the board, you get a single free use of "Uplinked Markerlight" per game.

Cost reduction is another route. If you a Ghostkeel drone within X inches of a Commander, Neuroweb System Jammer costs 1 less. It could even increase the discount depending on how many of a specific unit you control. For each Ghostkeel within X inches of a Commander, Neuroweb System Jammer costs 1 less. It may or may not be capped at a minimum cost. Wouldn't work without the 1 use per turn on each strategem keeping free strategems in check.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

Is that a problem with the orders or just with marines in general?

Besides, right now 20 marines can put out 40*2/3*2/3*2/3= 12 W against GEQ,
20 Guard can put out 40*1/2*1/2*2/3 = 6.6 W against GEQ. So in order to match the output of Marines, the Guard need to take 2 squads per full marine squad, which means that a Captain buffing 2 marine squads is buffing 4 Infantry Squads worth of firepower. (more or less)

Of course, the fact that marines only have 2x the firepower and 2.5x the durability of guardsmen (against boltguns, because against plasma marines have only marginally better durability) is bad since they are 3x the cost.

You're not analyzing that correctly. In fact I find that to be a really bizarre method.

10 marines = 130 points 20 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 5.9 Commander, 2x 10 IS = 120 points 80 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 13.3

Even if you added a captain to those marines they're not coming anywhere close to that efficiency.

Points efficiency is beside the point since we are looking at orders on a squad by squad basis (besides, it's disingenuous and muddies the water since we know that guardsmen are already more point efficient than marines).
A single captain with 2 orders can buff 20 marines, those 20 marines have twice the firepower of 20 guardsmen. Assuming the orders are the same, a single captain will have the same multiplicative effect as 2 IG commanders. So no, the Captain does not need 4 orders to be roughly equivalent to the effect of an IG commander.

Look at it this way: (assuming 12 pt marines and 5 pt guard because other wise the efficiency of Guard will render this moot)

1 Captain + 20 marines = 320ish pts
2 IG commanders + 40 Guard = 260 pts

Assuming the use of the same order (in this case reroll ones to hit) and shooting GEQ:
- Marines: 40*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*2/3*2/3= 14 W (70 pts)
- Guard: 80*(1/2+1/6*1/2)*1/2*2/3= 15.5 W (77.5 pts)
Now against MEQ:
- Marines: 40*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*1/2*1/3= 6 W (72 pts)
- Guard: 80*(1/2+1/6*1/2)*1/3*1/3= 5.2 W (62.4 pts)

Well, look at that, offensive output is pretty similar. Maybe adjust the points on the HQs a bit to better match but even so, the marine captain is more combat effective than the IG commanders so that still needs to be considered. And no, we can't compare FRFSRF to reroll 1s because you're not comparing like things together, and then we aren't considering any unique orders the marines could get.

Dandelion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

If marines ever had strategums worth playing yeah you would still probably be stuck on MSU as double battalion is 400 points in HQ's add in some anti armour and your in almost 1k add the msu and your 400 ish points thats still pretty bad given you can get the same CP from 400 points of guard and a castellan for the rest of that 1k even with 5ppm guard and a 700 point castellen I would still say marines will need something to be worth while taking over msu.

Could you break that down a bit? Right now it's kind of hard to read, so I'm not 100% sure what you're saying.

Strategums need CP usually the best way to generate CP is via Battalions. Usually 2 off as a starting target for sufficient CP post Regen nerf(Thankyou Astra Millicheese)

You need 2 HQ and 3 troops per battalion

Even at 12 ppm marine battalions with Power Armour at MSU are 180 points base troops(thats afull Guard battalion). Add in a captain and LT and your in between 150 and 200 points so your in almost 400 points per battalion just getting useful tax units.


Bring intercessors and it gets worse as they are 90 points per 5, so 2 units of 5 model intercessors and 5 scouts is 235 points add HQ's and your again another 200 points so this battalion is 450 ish points with some basic wargear options.

You still have no anti armour and either multiple predators (because why not make 3 mandatory or such and thats 500 points gone or you bring a couple of units of hellblasters. Again for lots of points.

Given 2 loyal 32 battalions plus Castellan even at 5ppm Guardsmen and 700 points are still a better way to spend 1100 points than marine's.

Marines don't work and won't work in 8th without some of the fundamental mechanics being changed.
Like CP being linked to detachments.
Other armies having acess to throwing enough dice to just buteforce any situation.

Dandelion wrote:


Points efficiency is beside the point since we are looking at orders on a squad by squad basis (besides, it's disingenuous and muddies the water since we know that guardsmen are already more point efficient than marines).
A single captain with 2 orders can buff 20 marines, those 20 marines have twice the firepower of 20 guardsmen. Assuming the orders are the same, a single captain will have the same multiplicative effect as 2 IG commanders. So no, the Captain does not need 4 orders to be roughly equivalent to the effect of an IG commander.

Look at it this way: (assuming 12 pt marines and 5 pt guard because other wise the efficiency of Guard will render this moot)

1 Captain + 20 marines = 320ish pts
2 IG commanders + 40 Guard = 260 pts

Assuming the use of the same order (in this case reroll ones to hit) and shooting GEQ:
- Marines: 40*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*2/3*2/3= 14 W (70 pts)
- Guard: 80*(1/2+1/6*1/2)*1/2*2/3= 15.5 W (77.5 pts)
Now against MEQ:
- Marines: 40*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*1/2*1/3= 6 W (72 pts)
- Guard: 80*(1/2+1/6*1/2)*1/3*1/3= 5.2 W (62.4 pts)

Well, look at that, offensive output is pretty similar. Maybe adjust the points on the HQs a bit to better match but even so, the marine captain is more combat effective than the IG commanders so that still needs to be considered. And no, we can't compare FRFSRF to reroll 1s because you're not comparing like things together, and then we aren't considering any unique orders the marines could get.

You've missed the mark again. First. that IG force is almost 80% the points of the marine one.

320 points of marines do 14 wounds. That means it took 22.9 points to score a wound. The IG took 16.8 points to do that same - even in your uneven imaginary scenario they are markedly more efficient.

And, yes, you HAVE TO compare FRFSRF to reroll 1s, because that is what is in the game.