Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units

Any chance you could elaborate on this one, dude?

Yea, I got it backwards, some keyword adjustment of IK because last I checked some knights weren't able to be part of the AdMech because of a missing keyword. Most of these were FW ones, haven't checked in a while.

DKoK and Elysians needed some keyword touch up and doctrine changes, but since the latter got discontinued...

Best would be: increase all points by a factor of 10.

Then you can better balance out points for the cheap infantry. Right now the problem is that a change from 5 to 6 points is a 20% increase and that is just too much for finetuning.

Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Weidekuh wrote:
Best would be: increase all points by a factor of 10.

Then you can better balance out points for the cheap infantry. Right now the problem is that a change from 5 to 6 points is a 20% increase and that is just too much for finetuning.

Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

I'll do you one better-increase by factor of 20.

That way you can have true 40k tournaments.

Honestly, how we didn't come up with that one before eludes me.

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Its still a powerful ability. Maybe a unit can only be resurrected once instead, like the restriction on Resurrection Protocols.

Kdash wrote:


So, while I agree smite spam doesn’t get you to the same potential level as Necrons, but, I also think he was indicating total MW output as opposed to just smite spam.

At 2000 points, with Magnus, I’d reasonable expect to break the 30MW barrier in the same situations we used to get the Necrons to 30+ MWs.

Doing so, potentially results in you not getting the more supportive powers off for a turn, and some of it relies on you getting powers like Bolt of Change and Doombolt off on Mangus (and then a +4 Infernal Gateway for D6 spread onto 2 additional units) but, Tsons can still reliably put out the same amount of MWs on a standard turn, as 3 Necron Vaults can do – which is ~20-30.

Which is why I said functional army. Nobody is building around MW spam, because then you don't have an army. Magnus often doesn't survive without protection buffs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Its still a powerful ability. Maybe a unit can only be resurrected once instead, like the restriction on Resurrection Protocols.

It really isn't that powerful once you put it at 3CP. Then again we had whiners about the Cultists strategem which wasn't bad either so...

Lemondish wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

IG guardsmen point increase

Not going to happen, as their cost is the foundation cost for every other infantry unit, and there is nothing about the unit that warrants a cost increase besides people who don't bring anti-horde crying that "existing is worth more than 4 points".

The math is clear - they should be 6 ppm. No point hiding from it.

Perhaps, but changing that one unit in isolation creates more weirdness in the AM codex. SWS teams are 4 points each guy, Veterans are 6 points, HWTs are 6 points per model, Ratlings are 5; you're going to have to realign all of those to fit if a Guardsman is now 6. A Scion is currently 10 points (with weapon), 2.5 times a guardsman, should they get bumped up to 14-15, or stay at 10?

5 fits better, and while its not as much as some IG detractors believe, it still fits in the points space much more neatly.

The comparative points values of nearly every Infantry unit in the game are out of whack with each other. That’s one nice thing about the Ork Codex. It seems to acknowledge and largely correct that issue, at least internally.

Now cross your fingers that it is a harbinger or CA 2018.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

Wait are you seriously saying you think RP gets better in high point games?

He really has no idea the state of Necrons at the moment. I'm assuming he was tabled in 5th ed by a flying crossiant list and has never gotten over it.

Um - no. Yes - RP is better in high point games. Argue my points - this is how debate works.

Saying things like...oh you just have no idea. Is not constructive. Did I not just suggest a 1 use stratagem that cost CP that allows you to use RP on a completely wiped out unit? Sounds like a buff to me. It also sounds to me like cron players want this at all times. It's almost like they don't understand that units coming back to life for free is OP.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units

Any chance you could elaborate on this one, dude?

Yeah I´m also eager to find out what wierd combos/interactions you’re seeing here
EDIT: my bad I missed quickjaggers response

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Yeah - just 420 free points. Nothing to see here ladies and gents lol.

BTW - can we make the tyranids stratagem to resurrect a whole unit of tyranids warriors work like this too? I'd really like to auto win games with my nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers are t3, no WBB, and base AP0. Assault 2 18" vs RF1 24" is basically a wash. 12ppm. On 6s, their shots are AP-3.

Necron Warrors are much more durable (T4, WBB), and have AP-1.

If you gave Necron Warrors Mortal Wounds on 6s, how is that fair? That's strictly better than AP-3 on 6s, by a lot. In addition to the native AP-1.

The fact you imply RP is worth anything defensively is laughable.

2 units - 1 has 1 model left in cover compared to a fresh unit.

In any other army that 1 model is just going to die from a LD test after losing 9 models or is easy to ignore 1 model till later. Against crons you have to kill it or the half the unit can come back on a good roll. He's got a 2+ save in cover though and you'd much rather shoot your auto cannons (the only weapons you have left) on that Ctan on your front lines

You keep putting scrap wounds on the 1 model but he keeps making 3+ saves. Now what do you do? The only weapon you have left is a las cannon. It would sure like to shoot at that Ctan on your front lines but that immortal is still alive. So Ill shot it with a lascannon. Success! the immortal is dead! But look - Ctan is at full life when it could have taking 2 heavy weapon shots.

If you fail to realize that situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. You clearly aren't trying to have real discussion. Target priority is literally the only skill in this entire game that matters and crons take that choice away from you for the most part. That is a powerful ability on it's own.

Maybe I am just not thinking sufficiently outside the box - but I don't like the idea of whole units re-appearing.

If Necron Warriors were 10 points, Immortals about 14-15 points and so on you don't need RP to be an especially powerful ability that goes off all the time.

Necrons might be able to leverage some los against some lists, but there is no hope vs ig

Tyel wrote:
Maybe I am just not thinking sufficiently outside the box - but I don't like the idea of whole units re-appearing.

If Necron Warriors were 10 points, Immortals about 14-15 points and so on you don't need RP to be an especially powerful ability that goes off all the time.

Yeah, after thinking about it I think the only unit that's particularly cost effective are destroyers. Everything else is overpriced for what they can offer.

Yeah, I find it quite strange that the faction that's known for standing back up doesn't have an equivalent stratagem (Green tide, Tide of traitors, etc.) to support that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Yeah - just 420 free points. Nothing to see here ladies and gents lol.

BTW - can we make the tyranids stratagem to resurrect a whole unit of tyranids warriors work like this too? I'd really like to auto win games with my nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers are t3, no WBB, and base AP0. Assault 2 18" vs RF1 24" is basically a wash. 12ppm. On 6s, their shots are AP-3.

Necron Warrors are much more durable (T4, WBB), and have AP-1.

If you gave Necron Warrors Mortal Wounds on 6s, how is that fair? That's strictly better than AP-3 on 6s, by a lot. In addition to the native AP-1.

The fact you imply RP is worth anything defensively is laughable.

2 units - 1 has 1 model left in cover compared to a fresh unit.

In any other army that 1 model is just going to die from a LD test after losing 9 models or is easy to ignore 1 model till later. Against crons you have to kill it or the half the unit can come back on a good roll. He's got a 2+ save in cover though and you'd much rather shoot your auto cannons (the only weapons you have left) on that Ctan on your front lines

You keep putting scrap wounds on the 1 model but he keeps making 3+ saves. Now what do you do? The only weapon you have left is a las cannon. It would sure like to shoot at that Ctan on your front lines but that immortal is still alive. So Ill shot it with a lascannon. Success! the immortal is dead! But look - Ctan is at full life when it could have taking 2 heavy weapon shots.

If you fail to realize that situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. You clearly aren't trying to have real discussion. Target priority is literally the only skill in this entire game that matters and crons take that choice away from you for the most part. That is a powerful ability on it's own.

No one wants to discuss this with you, because you act like you have an agenda, and just seem to ignore the fact that RP and Necrons are not in a good place.

1. You pull a random number of points, and don't bother to explain it. That's not an argument. Not to mention, you always seem to assume the best possible scenario for the Necrons, which is never the case.
2. You attempt to make a point about nids, that doesn't make sense. Do Nids have an army wide rule that allows them to get back up? No? Then making this comparison is silly. Necrons right now are paying the price for this rule in the absurd points cost across the army.
3. Look, you made up some fantasty land scenario again, about how it works out for the Necrons. This theory is fine and great, but it is not how it's working out in practice on the tabletop. Right now it is very easy to pick apart the Necron Army, and deny them their special rule. Are there any other armies that can be fully denied their special rule by the enemy player? How Many?
4. RP does not get better at higher point games. I don't know where you keep coming up with this. Players have the tools to much easier deny RP at higher point games. Nearly all of our units that have RP max out at a squad size of ten, which is by no means hard to kill.

I think that if the hypothetical strategem was worded:

Use when the last model of a unit with RESURRECTION PROTOCOLS would be removed as casualty. Immediately [Conduct Resurrection Protocols].

Would probably be more than fair. That way, if we really want that unit dead, it still dies, but it takes most of our army to do it, allowing RP to still soak up fire and protect other units like it should without making the unit functionally invincible.

The Imperial Knight strategem is extraordinarily frustrating to play against. Our Darkest Hour into Machine Spirit Resurgent is just awful, I don't think letting Necrons return a third of an infantry unit that would otherwise die is particularly egregious. Like, the best thing to return would be a squad of destroyers, I think.

the best solution for necrons, by far, is one that was proposed by another user in the necron forum, that Resurrection orb can be used at any time to roll for Resurrection protocol. Even in the opponents turn. It makes that wargear go from never used to auto include on any HQ able to take it, now HQ are way more worth it, and it makes the whole Resurrection way more efficient in bigger game.
Actually, where do we send suggestion to GW for chapter approve, cause I would dearly love to push this one forward lol.

I feel like a 20-man Warrior blob spending CP when the last model is removed to roll WBB for the unit - and probably get 6-7 guys back - would be rather fair. As long as it's at 'would be remove as a casualty' and not 'at the end of turn' or whatever.

VoidSempai wrote:
the best solution for necrons, by far, is one that was proposed by another user in the necron forum, that Resurrection orb can be used at any time to roll for Resurrection protocol. Even in the opponents turn. It makes that wargear go from never used to auto include on any HQ able to take it, now HQ are way more worth it, and it makes the whole Resurrection way more efficient in bigger game.
Actually, where do we send suggestion to GW for chapter approve, cause I would dearly love to push this one forward lol.

Unfortunately, CA is more than likely already printed! But that is a good idea

 Quickjager wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units

Any chance you could elaborate on this one, dude?

Yea, I got it backwards, some keyword adjustment of IK because last I checked some knights weren't able to be part of the AdMech because of a missing keyword. Most of these were FW ones, haven't checked in a while.

DKoK and Elysians needed some keyword touch up and doctrine changes, but since the latter got discontinued...

Ah, OK, that makes sense. Given (from the stories I heard) the FW Index books were pulled together at quite short notice, a keyword sweep to remove such odd situations wouldn't be a bad shout.

I need to check my FW Space Marine Index and see what provisions it gives for GK and DW - might be worth giving them access to certain toys, if they haven't already got them.

And thanks to LemonDish for proving a point I made a page or two ago.

Bharring wrote:
I feel like a 20-man Warrior blob spending CP when the last model is removed to roll WBB for the unit - and probably get 6-7 guys back - would be rather fair. As long as it's at 'would be remove as a casualty' and not 'at the end of turn' or whatever.

With a ghoast arc and a cryptec they'd get 15 back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I feel like a 20-man Warrior blob spending CP when the last model is removed to roll WBB for the unit - and probably get 6-7 guys back - would be rather fair. As long as it's at 'would be remove as a casualty' and not 'at the end of turn' or whatever.

With a ghoast arc and a cryptec they'd get 15 back.

Which is almost an additional 200 points. And it isn't hard to kill the last 5 Warriors. Now nothing matters!

Also the fact you think RP gets stronger as the game size increases shows a huge disconnect from reality. You still also have yet to accept my invitation to post in the Necron Tactica. Wonder why that is?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I feel like a 20-man Warrior blob spending CP when the last model is removed to roll WBB for the unit - and probably get 6-7 guys back - would be rather fair. As long as it's at 'would be remove as a casualty' and not 'at the end of turn' or whatever.

With a ghoast arc and a cryptec they'd get 15 back.

So you're thinking spending CP, investing in a Cryptek and Ghost Ark, and ensuring they are alive and within range to get models back is OP?

I can't imagine your thoughts on how OP the guaranteed throughput of Death Guard 5+++ is, with no outside support needed...

I have seen many of the points changes and marines will be happy.

I guess my ideas are just being ignored then?

 Sasori wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:


Edit: also for Necrons a stratagem that lets you use RP on a completely wiped out unit at the end of the turn?

Yes, but it should be one use only. It is a powerful ability, and even Endless Green Tide has a caveat where they have to arrive from the table edge and be 9" from an enemy instead of just staying where they are.

It isn't like the army is swimming in CP. Even with unlimited uses you'd get maybe 2 max.

Yeah - just 420 free points. Nothing to see here ladies and gents lol.

BTW - can we make the tyranids stratagem to resurrect a whole unit of tyranids warriors work like this too? I'd really like to auto win games with my nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers are t3, no WBB, and base AP0. Assault 2 18" vs RF1 24" is basically a wash. 12ppm. On 6s, their shots are AP-3.

Necron Warrors are much more durable (T4, WBB), and have AP-1.

If you gave Necron Warrors Mortal Wounds on 6s, how is that fair? That's strictly better than AP-3 on 6s, by a lot. In addition to the native AP-1.

The fact you imply RP is worth anything defensively is laughable.

2 units - 1 has 1 model left in cover compared to a fresh unit.

In any other army that 1 model is just going to die from a LD test after losing 9 models or is easy to ignore 1 model till later. Against crons you have to kill it or the half the unit can come back on a good roll. He's got a 2+ save in cover though and you'd much rather shoot your auto cannons (the only weapons you have left) on that Ctan on your front lines

You keep putting scrap wounds on the 1 model but he keeps making 3+ saves. Now what do you do? The only weapon you have left is a las cannon. It would sure like to shoot at that Ctan on your front lines but that immortal is still alive. So Ill shot it with a lascannon. Success! the immortal is dead! But look - Ctan is at full life when it could have taking 2 heavy weapon shots.

If you fail to realize that situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. You clearly aren't trying to have real discussion. Target priority is literally the only skill in this entire game that matters and crons take that choice away from you for the most part. That is a powerful ability on it's own.

No one wants to discuss this with you, because you act like you have an agenda, and just seem to ignore the fact that RP and Necrons are not in a good place.

1. You pull a random number of points, and don't bother to explain it. That's not an argument. Not to mention, you always seem to assume the best possible scenario for the Necrons, which is never the case.
2. You attempt to make a point about nids, that doesn't make sense. Do Nids have an army wide rule that allows them to get back up? No? Then making this comparison is silly. Necrons right now are paying the price for this rule in the absurd points cost across the army.
3. Look, you made up some fantasty land scenario again, about how it works out for the Necrons. This theory is fine and great, but it is not how it's working out in practice on the tabletop. Right now it is very easy to pick apart the Necron Army, and deny them their special rule. Are there any other armies that can be fully denied their special rule by the enemy player? How Many?
4. RP does not get better at higher point games. I don't know where you keep coming up with this. Players have the tools to much easier deny RP at higher point games. Nearly all of our units that have RP max out at a squad size of ten, which is by no means hard to kill.

First of all - it's just theory on RP scaling for point level. It doesn't really matter. But I've made points that you aren't even trying to dispute. There are some factors that you can't dispute.
#1 Models take up space
#2 Closing distance increases damage to a target generally
#3 Units can not stand on top of each other.

In other words - because units can not occupy the same space - getting damage to a particular target becomes more difficult as space becomes cramped. So in larger games finishing off a target becomes more difficult. Not to mention - the average number of units being destroyed in large game goes up. More target variety. More total units in general with a chance to get RP. These are all factors that make getting RP rolls easier.

I am not always assuming the best case for the necrons. If you actually go back and read your statements -"Not to mention, you always seem to assume the best possible scenario for the Necrons, which is never the case" you are the one that is making the absolute statement. I'm simply stating that RP is very powerful SOMETIMES and stating that the best case CAN occur. It's doesn't never happen. It happens in a minority of situations but when it does happen it completely changes the game. Unlike battle focus which probably gives you a few more hits with shuriken catapults in a game. RP probably gives you a few to many resurrections in a game. Getting back units is much better than a few more shuriken hits. So when you compare RP to other army wide abilities. It is clearly at the top of them. A buff to Necrons should not be a buff to RP (except in the case of a stratagem perhaps - and it had best be expensive)

I get that people want the army to be thematic. You have to get real though - you can't actually beat an army that you can't kill.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I get that people want the army to be thematic. You have to get real though - you can't actually beat an army that you can't kill.

Sure you can. Play the mission. Go for objectives, don't waste time trying to grind them down. Most RP units are slow, use it against them. It's not always about tabling your opponent, you can win a game while still losing most of your army, if you do it right. That's the strategy.