Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Cool. Hey did you know that the average smite is 2 mortal wounds? And that there is a 16% chance you fail to cast without a bonus? That means each smite is 1.7 MW on average, which takes 17 or more full smites to accomplish 30 mortal wounds per turn.

Next time learn some math and know what you're talking about instead of just throwing out some numbers.

You obviously have no clue how to build a tsons army that is capable of 30 MW per turn.

w1zard wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

I guess CA could really upset people by making Guardsmen 6 points, Kabs 8 points, moving Fire Warriors up to 9 etc.

This is the point I was trying to make in other threads... There are the "good" factions (Eldar, DE, Guard) and there are the "bad" factions (GK, SM, Necrons). Do we nerf the "good" factions down to the bad? Or do we buff the "bad" factions up to the good?

The game needs both though. As those top tier codex's have brutally devastating turn 1's while the bottom tier can't actually do enough damage to survive any return.
The game would need rebalanced if everyone was nerfed down to GK level of useless, as tabling would be impossible, but it doesn't need to go to the other extreme of DE/Guard deleting 1/3 of the opponent turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

Wait are you seriously saying you think RP gets better in high point games?

Also that other comment above from Ice Can, you're basically saying that some armies should just suck, so that your top tier armies feel special. Good lord.

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread anymore than I already have. Necrons need love, some disagreement as to how much is the tl:dr

Allow Spyders to effect RP again.

Then have them function like the repair from the Ghost ark, but they only allow d6 models per Spyder in range to roll RP at the end of the movement phase.

Spyders cannot use this ability if they have used a Fabricator Claw this turn.

I expect another 30 page thread once CA comes out arguing if CA did enough.

meleti wrote:
I expect another 30 page thread once CA comes out arguing if CA did enough.

Duh. It's a law.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

Wait are you seriously saying you think RP gets better in high point games?

He really has no idea the state of Necrons at the moment. I'm assuming he was tabled in 5th ed by a flying crossiant list and has never gotten over it.

meleti wrote:
I expect another 30 page thread once CA comes out arguing if CA did enough.

Given the wish list I have seen on this thread, it will be a 30 page thread about how CA didn't do enough.

In all seriousness, though. What do people genuinely think Chapter Approved will include? At least as far as changes go, will it stick to points values, or will they introduce some sort of mono army bonus for certain factions. Will there be some sort of overhaul in the Command Point system.

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers are t3, no WBB, and base AP0. Assault 2 18" vs RF1 24" is basically a wash. 12ppm. On 6s, their shots are AP-3.

Necron Warrors are much more durable (T4, WBB), and have AP-1.

If you gave Necron Warrors Mortal Wounds on 6s, how is that fair? That's strictly better than AP-3 on 6s, by a lot. In addition to the native AP-1.

The fact you imply RP is worth anything defensively is laughable.

Darsath wrote:
In all seriousness, though. What do people genuinely think Chapter Approved will include? At least as far as changes go, will it stick to points values, or will they introduce some sort of mono army bonus for certain factions. Will there be some sort of overhaul in the Command Point system.

Mostly realistic wishlist:

A CP overhaul. Either only get CP from warlord's army or can only use CP on the faction that generated it (I prefer the latter option). This basically fixes 90% of soup issues (Eldar soup still kinda gross, but that's a whole other thing).
Nemesis Strike Force rule for Grey Knights (Turn 1 Deepstrike)
Buffs to Space Marines Chapter Tactics (apply to all units, specific buffs to each chapter to bring them in line with newer codexes).
Ravagers and Disintegrator Cannons going up in price. Probably Talos too.
All the necron buffs mentioned earlier.
Plasma fix (only explode on natural 1s).
Natural 6 is always a hit for all armies.
Crisis suits get cheaper.
Castellan is going up in cost.
Undo some of the silly rules that killed certain units utility (poxwalkers not being able to go above starting numbers etc)

I think most of these are reasonable on their own, but I don't see us getting more than half of it at best.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Darsath wrote:
In all seriousness, though. What do people genuinely think Chapter Approved will include? At least as far as changes go, will it stick to points values, or will they introduce some sort of mono army bonus for certain factions. Will there be some sort of overhaul in the Command Point system.

Mostly realistic wishlist:

A CP overhaul. Either only get CP from warlord's army or can only use CP on the faction that generated it (I prefer the latter option). This basically fixes 90% of soup issues (Eldar soup still kinda gross, but that's a whole other thing).
Nemesis Strike Force rule for Grey Knights (Turn 1 Deepstrike)
Buffs to Space Marines Chapter Tactics (apply to all units, specific buffs to each chapter to bring them in line with newer codexes).
Ravagers and Disintegrator Cannons going up in price. Probably Talos too.
All the necron buffs mentioned earlier.
Plasma fix (only explode on natural 1s).
Natural 6 is always a hit for all armies.
Crisis suits get cheaper.
Castellan is going up in cost.
Undo some of the silly rules that killed certain units utility (poxwalkers not being able to go above starting numbers etc)

I think most of these are reasonable on their own, but I don't see us getting more than half of it at best.

I could get on board with quite a few of these actually.

Realistically though, I'm not expecting much. A point tweak for several units is probably all we will get by way of balance changes. I think a lot of the focus will be shifted on the beta sisters codex.

Darsath wrote:
In all seriousness, though. What do people genuinely think Chapter Approved will include? At least as far as changes go, will it stick to points values, or will they introduce some sort of mono army bonus for certain factions. Will there be some sort of overhaul in the Command Point system.

It's been already said, however, I expect:
Points adjustment: I expect to see common units increased in price, but nothing to be done for underperforming units.
Sisters beta codex: The same thing as the index, with a set of marginally mediocre Order Convictions and relics, with one or two decent strategems.
Looted Wagon: Rules that aren't actually ever applicable, but give you more precise customization over your looted wagons than slotting them into the current pool of Ork vehicles, but open play only.
New missions: I don't know what they'll be, since Planetstrike and Cities of Death and Apocalyse have already been covered.

What we genuinely think it will include?

IG guardsmen point increase
Castellan Knight point increase
Probably some psychic power changes for Eldar and SM
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units
Plasma cost increase
Melta and equiv cost decrease
GSC ambush changes
Lots of CP nerfs across the board
I actually expect Custodes point decreases except for the biker.

 Quickjager wrote:
What we genuinely think it will include?

IG guardsmen point increase
Castellan Knight point increase
Probably some psychic power changes for Eldar and SM
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units
Plasma cost increase
Melta and equiv cost decrease
GSC ambush changes
Lots of CP nerfs across the board
I actually expect Custodes point decreases except for the biker.

This is what would happen in a sane and rational world, not what will actually happen.

He really has no idea the state of Necrons at the moment. I'm assuming he was tabled in 5th ed by a flying crossiant list and has never gotten over it.

I'm guessing that he doesn't actually play Necrons, and does not posses any real insight into how they actually play. No real Necron player will spout the non-sense about RP and Necrons being fine at the moment. I could understand the original theory of RP being powerful on paper, but it has clearly be shown that it is very weak in practice, and thus why I am certain that we are due for a substantial points decrease in our units since RP is not near as valuable as it looks on paper. I'm hoping to see both the points decreases, and some support to make RP better in game.

 Quickjager wrote:

IG guardsmen point increase

Not going to happen, as their cost is the foundation cost for every other infantry unit, and there is nothing about the unit that warrants a cost increase besides people who don't bring anti-horde crying that "existing is worth more than 4 points".

 Quickjager wrote:

Castellan Knight point increase

I was thinking that too, until I saw the Ork codex. If Knights were going to take a point increase, I would've expected that Gorkanaut and Morkanaut to be around 400pts, and they're 311 and 310 respectively.

 Quickjager wrote:

Plasma cost increase
Melta and equiv cost decrease

I can't see Plasma going up in cost further, as it's already 13pts for BS3, and sees very limited competitive play because of that.
Judging by the Ork codex's equivalents, BS4 meltas should drop to 9 points, ergo BS3 meltas will likely be coming down to 13 points.
I suspect that multi-meltas will drop to 20 for BS3 and 15 for BS4.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

Wait are you seriously saying you think RP gets better in high point games?

Also that other comment above from Ice Can, you're basically saying that some armies should just suck, so that your top tier armies feel special. Good lord.

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread anymore than I already have. Necrons need love, some disagreement as to how much is the tl:dr

No I'm saying that the top armies need to be dailed down form the 11 they are at not every other codex dialed upto 11.
But they also Don't need to go as far as the 2 of GK they need to hit a 6 or 7 point of allowing most games to make it to turn 5-6 but not have half of people armies left turn 6 like it would if everyone went down to GK power level.

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Ummm so you saying that using yet another non scalable rules(strategem) suddenly makes non scalable rule scalable? That's like total opposition of basic logic...

Strategem is another 100% non scalable rule. You can use strategem once. Obviously say ork showing off strategem(shoot twice) is going to have bigger impact in 1k points when you have 1 unit that can benefit from it compared to 3k game where you could have 3-4 units that would love to use it but can't.

Non scalable rule does not change non scalable rule into scalable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

I guess CA could really upset people by making Guardsmen 6 points, Kabs 8 points, moving Fire Warriors up to 9 etc.

This is the point I was trying to make in other threads... There are the "good" factions (Eldar, DE, Guard) and there are the "bad" factions (GK, SM, Necrons). Do we nerf the "good" factions down to the bad? Or do we buff the "bad" factions up to the good?

The game needs both though. As those top tier codex's have brutally devastating turn 1's while the bottom tier can't actually do enough damage to survive any return.
The game would need rebalanced if everyone was nerfed down to GK level of useless, as tabling would be impossible, but it doesn't need to go to the other extreme of DE/Guard deleting 1/3 of the opponent turn 1.

WTF? For your sake I'm hoping you are joking here...

 Sasori wrote:

I'm guessing that he doesn't actually play Necrons, and does not posses any real insight into how they actually play. No real Necron player will spout the non-sense about RP and Necrons being fine at the moment. I could understand the original theory of RP being powerful on paper, but it has clearly be shown that it is very weak in practice, and thus why I am certain that we are due for a substantial points decrease in our units since RP is not near as valuable as it looks on paper. I'm hoping to see both the points decreases, and some support to make RP better in game.

Thats the eays way to go, but it will make necrons even stronger in low point games. Another easy way to go is to change RP into a FNP rule. I think one of these will happen.

 Blndmage wrote:
Allow Spyders to effect RP again.

Then have them function like the repair from the Ghost ark, but they only allow d6 models per Spyder in range to roll RP at the end of the movement phase.

Spyders cannot use this ability if they have used a Fabricator Claw this turn.

I guess the easiest way is to change RP to the FNP rule they had before...plus some minor point changes is what I expect...

Probably almost nothing will happen to how our teleportation works or to our flyers (except point drops)

Also definitely no change to Gauss...I just dont see it coming (even though id love to)...just point drops and maybe some rules clarifications (moving units that disembarked from our „transports“)...

If this is enough to make necrons viable depends wholly on the other factions nerfs/buffs...but to be REAL honest here...I dont expect much...This is how they think necrons should play...theres no 180 change in sight...

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

IG guardsmen point increase

Not going to happen, as their cost is the foundation cost for every other infantry unit, and there is nothing about the unit that warrants a cost increase besides people who don't bring anti-horde crying that "existing is worth more than 4 points".

You're joking right?
IS are undercosted compared to EVERYTHING.
They are very much NOT "the foundation cost for every other infantry unit"
Heck, look at cultists or conscripts for comparison-same price, strictly worse.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Castellan Knight point increase

I was thinking that too, until I saw the Ork codex. If Knights were going to take a point increase, I would've expected that Gorkanaut and Morkanaut to be around 400pts, and they're 311 and 310 respectively.

Not seeing the codex yet, I find it hard to comment as I dont know how good gork/mork are. but I suspect they are not AS good as knights-given that they don't have an entire codex dedicated to supporting them.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Plasma cost increase
Melta and equiv cost decrease

I can't see Plasma going up in cost further, as it's already 13pts for BS3, and sees very limited competitive play because of that.
Judging by the Ork codex's equivalents, BS4 meltas should drop to 9 points, ergo BS3 meltas will likely be coming down to 13 points.
I suspect that multi-meltas will drop to 20 for BS3 and 15 for BS4.

 Quickjager wrote:
Some Keyword adjustment on IG and AdMech units

Any chance you could elaborate on this one, dude?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers.

Sure, if you want a non-function army. How are you getting 15+ smites off?

2DPs, Ahriman = 6 MW
3 MSU Rubrics = 3 MW
3 Shamans = 6 MW

That's the best you could get on one detachment. Scarabs would be entirely inefficient for MW spam.

If you're spamming 9 DPs and Ahriman - that's not Thousand Sons and is still only 20 MW.

So, while I agree smite spam doesn’t get you to the same potential level as Necrons, but, I also think he was indicating total MW output as opposed to just smite spam.

At 2000 points, with Magnus, I’d reasonable expect to break the 30MW barrier in the same situations we used to get the Necrons to 30+ MWs.

Doing so, potentially results in you not getting the more supportive powers off for a turn, and some of it relies on you getting powers like Bolt of Change and Doombolt off on Mangus (and then a +4 Infernal Gateway for D6 spread onto 2 additional units) but, Tsons can still reliably put out the same amount of MWs on a standard turn, as 3 Necron Vaults can do – which is ~20-30.

Kdash wrote:

So, while I agree smite spam doesn’t get you to the same potential level as Necrons, but, I also think he was indicating total MW output as opposed to just smite spam.

Exactly. I never said smite spam. There are many more ways to spam MW, its not only smites.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

Wait are you seriously saying you think RP gets better in high point games?

He really has no idea the state of Necrons at the moment. I'm assuming he was tabled in 5th ed by a flying crossiant list and has never gotten over it.

To be fair, I do see his point. If your opponent is forced to spend more firepower than he normally would to render a unit useless than strategically speaking you would have the advantage. The problem though is that such a thing only really works when everything in the necron army is a potential threat and they are cheap enough to make such focus firing down a unit an inefficient proposition.

This is a huge problem, because not only are necron damage dealers few in number and will be focused down, leaving the rest of the army without any real damage sources, they are also expensive, meaning that your opponent will ultimately win out the trade.
In the past necron units were always a threat - that gauss rule made even a squad of warriors a potential threat, as they could one shot vehicles. Now, not so much. -1Ap isn't that impressive against a unit with a 3+ save, high toughness and more than 5 wounds. You have to spend so many points on warriors to make any damage output worthwhile now.
If gauss were changed to +1D damage on a 6 whilst retaining their "bonus" AP, that would give a lot of necron units more a bite, and therefore would make the impact of losing a unit to getting focused down a little less severe, as then you'd still have some offensive options left against heavier targets.

Necrons need a price decrease overall, starting with their weapons. A Gauss blaster and tesla carbine is not worth 9 points. That's more than the immortal they go on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
I guess the easiest way is to change RP to the FNP rule they had before...

Easiest? Probably. Best? Hell no.
In terms of army flavor its a cop out, as necrons were always about getting knocked down and standing back up again
In terms of game design its a cop out, as why bother creating a unique, flavorful rule when you can just copy and rename Disgustingly Resilient?
8th ed already has a problem with recycling the same damned rule over and over again.

I’ve said for a while the most awesome thing they could do with necrons is to give them a scaling amount of RP-resource in the list, and allow them to spend it in game to rez models. It would add a layer of tactics in that necrons could bring a balanced army and then burn their resources rezzing the units they need while letting the unneeded ones die off.

Allow them to bring back totally wiped units for an extra cost near a cryptek, and there ya go.

“B-But I can’t keep track of one easily tracked number through the game!”
Then you don’t pass the minimum mental ability level to play the game. Bye.

RP probably doesn't need to scale though. It just needs synergy and some actual support.
An ability like RP is only worth it if you have the damage output to go with it and can support it with buffs and other defensive abilities. Can't do that with necrons.

The orks do a better job at defending units with their KFF. The chronometer is just pathetic. It's 75% of the cost of a KFF but has 33% of the range. I don't know why GW gives things 3" auras because those are bloody useless.

RP is a strong ability in theory, but in practice its weak because the army isn't built around it.

I guess a good analogy would be a Role Playing party that is full of nothing but poorly built defensive tanks, and one of them has a knife. That's what necrons are like.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

IG guardsmen point increase

Not going to happen, as their cost is the foundation cost for every other infantry unit, and there is nothing about the unit that warrants a cost increase besides people who don't bring anti-horde crying that "existing is worth more than 4 points".

The math is clear - they should be 6 ppm. No point hiding from it.