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 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

I insist you go into the Necron Tactica and tell those players that RP is fine. I insist. Seriously.

ERJAK wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I agree there is room for improvement. I just disagree on how much would be wise.

You want love taps. What is needed is just as Newman stated 15-30% point reductions across the board.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

The Newman wrote:

There are admittedly some things where it feels like the price isn't the issue though. The Redemptor is one of them, both for T7 and for having a much worse set of weapon options than an Armiger. The Vindicator also comes to mind, it feels like it needs Grinding Advance more than any points adjustment.

Terminators, too. For 13 points more than a Custodian Guard, you get an assault cannon/power fist Terminator that is slower, has fewer wounds, worse BS/WS, lower toughness, strength, and attacks, and does marginally more damage to GEQ past 12" if stationary. Oh, but it can deep strike.

It should be 50% it's current price, but it can't be, because its wargear is half the damn point cost.

Whats more a custodian guard isn't even very good for it's points. No wonder they see 0 competitive play.

Except you can't do a 20-30% point reduction across the board because then gorram Girlyman becomes a major problem again. 15% is probably doable, but after that Girlybro starts compounding additional firepower on itself and the whole army spirals out of control, just like in the Indexes.(Index Space marines with quad Stormravens are STILL the most powerful army, relative to available field, we've seen in 8th).

The stuff that's really bad: Most of the vehicles, terminators, assault marines, etc. could drop that much and probably still be fine. But you start messing around too much with Centurions or Stormravens or even just devastators and you're setting up for another Girlydude leafblower gunline.

Just to be clear, when I said 15%-30% I meant everything needs to be 15% cheaper at a minimum and some things need more than that. I didn't mean a blanket "x percent for all the things" because some stuff needs a bigger price drop than other stuff.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

I don’t mind like “2 damage on 6’s to wound vs vehicles” or something, but we do NOT need even more mortal wounds. It’s already a bad mechanic, let’s keep the infection as contained as possible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

I insist you go into the Necron Tactica and tell those players that RP is fine. I insist. Seriously.

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

I don’t mind like “2 damage on 6’s to wound vs vehicles” or something, but we do NOT need even more mortal wounds. It’s already a bad mechanic, let’s keep the infection as contained as possible.

Contained = screw the two or three armies that can't do it, but we'll let everyone else carry on. Most other armies can reliably crank out mortal wounds way easier than what I'm proposing, without the limitation of vehicles only. If you don't like the MW mechanic as a whole then fine, but you can't say this is OP compared to other MW stuff out there.

D2 on 6's is really weak sauce, especially as they're only ap-1. You're blocking half of the D2 shots at a minimum, so in reality that's an extra wound or two at most.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

I insist you go into the Necron Tactica and tell those players that RP is fine. I insist. Seriously.

I'll bring the pop corn

IanVanCheese wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

I don’t mind like “2 damage on 6’s to wound vs vehicles” or something, but we do NOT need even more mortal wounds. It’s already a bad mechanic, let’s keep the infection as contained as possible.

Contained = screw the two or three armies that can't do it, but we'll let everyone else carry on. Most other armies can reliably crank out mortal wounds way easier than what I'm proposing, without the limitation of vehicles only. If you don't like the MW mechanic as a whole then fine, but you can't say this is OP compared to other MW stuff out there.

D2 on 6's is really weak sauce, especially as they're only ap-1. You're blocking half of the D2 shots at a minimum, so in reality that's an extra wound or two at most.

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.,
Also, RPs can never be negated by the enemy, it can be limited which is a different thing. Focus firing a unit does indeed prevent you from getting your guys back, but every time you focus fire something to the bitter end of it, then you had to reduce the efficency of your offensive, so RP did have an effect on the game.
We can argue that the effect becomes smaller the larger the game is, and at the standard point level 1750-2000 then it is overcosted for the effect it brings to the table. That is indeed true.
Saying though that RP can be negated is wrong, RP is never truly negated, which means that it's already in a better state than other faction rules.

Necron's biggest problem is that they are a faction designed to cover all AT needs by means of massed Gauss fire, and all of a sudden the Gauss changed role without redesigning the rest of the faction, so that now Necrons have big issues taking down big targets (and also have some overcosted stuff here and there, probably more than the average faction).
Necron's issues are also meta related. The meta right now is cheap infantry and huge models or very powerful and mobile alpha strikes. Necrons are at theyr best against 3+ / 4+ average T targets which right now are completely missing from the picture.

w1zard wrote:
I also personally didn't think ork boyz needed to go to 7 points, but w/e. Guardsmen now feel even more out of place than they already did at 4ppm. I think they should go to 5ppm in this CA and get it over with so people will stop complaining about how good guard chaff is in relation to everything else.

If IS go to 5ppm, the more deranged elements of DakkaDakka will continue to attack the IG - they'll just start to claim IS should go to 6ppm instead...

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Assuming your use of AM there should've been IG, then there are bad units in their 'dex too - without grabbing the book, the Deathstrike and Chimera spring to mind without even thinking about it, and I'm sure there are plenty of others.

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

To a lesser extent all aura effects work like that. Also all psykers do.

Spoletta wrote:

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.

You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers. Now tell me, how can necrons do 30 MW per turn ??

 p5freak wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.

You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers. Now tell me, how can necrons do 30 MW per turn ??

Easily for example?

No seriously, have you ever faced 3 vaults?

Spoletta wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

To a lesser extent all aura effects work like that. Also all psykers do.

At least all auras and psykers do SOMETHING in bigger games. RP doesn't.

I faced codex Necrons twice with my AdMech and got traumatised twice. Between the Tesseract Vaults that vaporized my characters one by one with the C'tan powers + the Tesla, and the unkillable Wraiths I'm pretty scarred.

I don't believe the whole codex is really good because of that though, maybe just those few units (and AdMech is not the most serious opponent when not optimised) but there's strong stuff in there. And it didn't strike me as lacking MW sources. Meanwhile AdMech's only reliable sources are Wrath of Mars (so, Forge-World related) and flimsy Fulgurites.

Spoletta wrote:

Easily for example?

10 psykers and decimators with soulburner petards. Magnus has a 2D6 smite. Every tson HQ unit can spam smite, at 24". Ahriman gets +1 to psychic tests, they have a stratagem which gives them +2 to psychic tests, getting a 11 is very possible. Decimators do MW by simply hitting.

Spoletta wrote:

No seriously, have you ever faced 3 vaults?

No, i havent. They cant do 30 MW per turn.

Decimators do MW by simply hitting.

and are also easily blowing themselves up, meanwhile have better weapon options then petards but he, let's ignore that.
Not to mention that Decimators are rather fragile units and the petard has a low range for it's priecetag.

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.,
Also, RPs can never be negated by the enemy, it can be limited which is a different thing. Focus firing a unit does indeed prevent you from getting your guys back, but every time you focus fire something to the bitter end of it, then you had to reduce the efficency of your offensive, so RP did have an effect on the game.
We can argue that the effect becomes smaller the larger the game is, and at the standard point level 1750-2000 then it is overcosted for the effect it brings to the table. That is indeed true.
Saying though that RP can be negated is wrong, RP is never truly negated, which means that it's already in a better state than other faction rules.

Necron's biggest problem is that they are a faction designed to cover all AT needs by means of massed Gauss fire, and all of a sudden the Gauss changed role without redesigning the rest of the faction, so that now Necrons have big issues taking down big targets (and also have some overcosted stuff here and there, probably more than the average faction).
Necron's issues are also meta related. The meta right now is cheap infantry and huge models or very powerful and mobile alpha strikes. Necrons are at theyr best against 3+ / 4+ average T targets which right now are completely missing from the picture.

What you're saying is that because we can spam 3 superheavies, our codex is fine? Sure, also why fix Space Marines, they can just spam Knights so it's fine right? The reason triple vault is the only list that shows up at tournaments (and still doesn't do well) is that the rest of our book is so underpowered and overcosted. You're even admitting that you know what our issue is: necrons were designed with the idea that mass gauss fire made up for our lack of AT weaponry. Now that it doesn't, we're boned.

Also just because other factions also need fixing, doesn't mean Necrons don't. Yes ATSNNF sucks. That's an issue for to fix in their codex, not a reason to not fix ours.

RP can absolutely be negated. Not getting to use it is negating it. As for the meta, well yeah. Massive vehicles is the meta and we suck against armour. Necrons need points cost and viable anti-armour to drag them off the bottom of the army rankings (alongside Grey Knights)

RP can absolutely be negated. Not getting to use it is negating it. As for the meta, well yeah. Massive vehicles is the meta and we suck against armour. Necrons need points cost and viable anti-armour to drag them off the bottom of the army rankings (alongside Grey Knights)

When you can force someone to focus fire a unit through a rule, then yes actually he could not negate the rule but he could limit it's impact. Forcing someone to play in a certain way, (in this case forcing someone to wipe out a necron unit completely) is an advantage. (not to say that the current RP rules are not bad, but the rule is not as abbmissal as certain people make it out to be.)

In my last (Fun-)Game against Necrons I was not able to kill a single Necronwarrior with my SoB. I realy tried to, but failed everytime the last modell had to go. The next turn it came back with 7 Modells. In a casual Game I would be pissed, if RP would work better. 0:-)

MW on a 6 for Gauss-weapons ist truely insane. I like the suggestion of double-damage against vehicles. I think it would be fluffy without killing the Game.

Not Online!!! wrote:

RP can absolutely be negated. Not getting to use it is negating it. As for the meta, well yeah. Massive vehicles is the meta and we suck against armour. Necrons need points cost and viable anti-armour to drag them off the bottom of the army rankings (alongside Grey Knights)

When you can force someone to focus fire a unit through a rule, then yes actually he could not negate the rule but he could limit it's impact. Forcing someone to play in a certain way, (in this case forcing someone to wipe out a necron unit completely) is an advantage. (not to say that the current RP rules are not bad, but the rule is not as abbmissal as certain people make it out to be.)

Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Covenant wrote:
In my last (Fun-)Game against Necrons I was not able to kill a single Necronwarrior with my SoB. I realy tried to, but failed everytime the last modell had to go. The next turn it came back with 7 Modells. In a casual Game I would be pissed, if RP would work better. 0:-)

MW on a 6 for Gauss-weapons ist truely insane. I like the suggestion of double-damage against vehicles. I think it would be fluffy without killing the Game.

Ah yes let's go with anedoctal luck of dice arquments. "His conscripts killed my grand master grey knight on dreadknight on overwatch! THEY ARE CHEESY BROKEN IN OVERWATCH!" (yes that's actually true story. Deep strike, charge, got blown to bits. Albeit I was the conscript fielder)

Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

My point was that his argumentation made no sense. My point was not that the rule is great, frankly i would prefer the oldcron rules as in get back up regardless of CP at 4+ at the end of each turn but before morale. Not that it matters, just like it made absolute no sense that ork boyz are now 7ppm.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

My point was that his argumentation made no sense. My point was not that the rule is great, frankly i would prefer the oldcron rules as in get back up regardless of CP at 4+ at the end of each turn but before morale. Not that it matters, just like it made absolute no sense that ork boyz are now 7ppm.

But it can be negated by smart opponent. Playing counting on opponent playing badly is not that smart idea. Sure if your opponent plays badly it's great. What happens when you run into sensible opponent?

tneva82 wrote:
Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

That's because the codex is generally overpriced and bad. You can focus down any vaguely threatening units (destroyers, bikers etc) and then mop up the rest later.

Necrons suffer from the curse of MEQ and RP is valued as if it was a 5+++. Its not however as good. This is especially true on the smaller elite squads that pay through the nose for no obvious reason.

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

My point was that his argumentation made no sense. My point was not that the rule is great, frankly i would prefer the oldcron rules as in get back up regardless of CP at 4+ at the end of each turn but before morale. Not that it matters, just like it made absolute no sense that ork boyz are now 7ppm.

But it can be negated by smart opponent. Playing counting on opponent playing badly is not that smart idea. Sure if your opponent plays badly it's great. What happens when you run into sensible opponent?

You're fethed, but he still had to make sure to wipe, which might leads to overcommitment, ergo he potentially wasted firepower, ergo he has LIMITED not NEGATED. I agree wholeheartedly that the rule is terrible, but the simple fact remains that in lower pts cases the rule is comparatively speaking overperforming and in higher pts limit matches basically useless.

As for reliance of playing against bad people: Errare humanum est, if anything you can always count on human beeings to do dumb stuff.


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Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

That's because the codex is generally overpriced and bad. You can focus down any vaguely threatening units (destroyers, bikers etc) and then mop up the rest later.

Necrons suffer from the curse of MEQ and RP is valued as if it was a 5+++. Its not however as good. This is especially true on the smaller elite squads that pay through the nose for no obvious reason.

Would a pricecut (say around10-15% ) be enough to get more threats on the table, to the point where oppurtunity cost actually kicks in?
IDK personally.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Easily for example?

10 psykers and decimators with soulburner petards. Magnus has a 2D6 smite. Every tson HQ unit can spam smite, at 24". Ahriman gets +1 to psychic tests, they have a stratagem which gives them +2 to psychic tests, getting a 11 is very possible. Decimators do MW by simply hitting.

Spoletta wrote:

No seriously, have you ever faced 3 vaults?

No, i havent. They cant do 30 MW per turn.

Getting to 30 MW in a single turn with Tsons is possible, but is defintely not the average value. On the other hand 3 vaults can easily push that numbers of MW.


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IanVanCheese wrote:

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.,
Also, RPs can never be negated by the enemy, it can be limited which is a different thing. Focus firing a unit does indeed prevent you from getting your guys back, but every time you focus fire something to the bitter end of it, then you had to reduce the efficency of your offensive, so RP did have an effect on the game.
We can argue that the effect becomes smaller the larger the game is, and at the standard point level 1750-2000 then it is overcosted for the effect it brings to the table. That is indeed true.
Saying though that RP can be negated is wrong, RP is never truly negated, which means that it's already in a better state than other faction rules.

Necron's biggest problem is that they are a faction designed to cover all AT needs by means of massed Gauss fire, and all of a sudden the Gauss changed role without redesigning the rest of the faction, so that now Necrons have big issues taking down big targets (and also have some overcosted stuff here and there, probably more than the average faction).
Necron's issues are also meta related. The meta right now is cheap infantry and huge models or very powerful and mobile alpha strikes. Necrons are at theyr best against 3+ / 4+ average T targets which right now are completely missing from the picture.

What you're saying is that because we can spam 3 superheavies, our codex is fine? Sure, also why fix Space Marines, they can just spam Knights so it's fine right? The reason triple vault is the only list that shows up at tournaments (and still doesn't do well) is that the rest of our book is so underpowered and overcosted. You're even admitting that you know what our issue is: necrons were designed with the idea that mass gauss fire made up for our lack of AT weaponry. Now that it doesn't, we're boned.

Also just because other factions also need fixing, doesn't mean Necrons don't. Yes ATSNNF sucks. That's an issue for to fix in their codex, not a reason to not fix ours.

RP can absolutely be negated. Not getting to use it is negating it. As for the meta, well yeah. Massive vehicles is the meta and we suck against armour. Necrons need points cost and viable anti-armour to drag them off the bottom of the army rankings (alongside Grey Knights)

No, i never said that the codex is fine. I just said that "Necrons are the faction which is boned MW wise" is completely false and "RP can be completely negated" is partially false.
No one here disagrees on the fact that necrons need an hand.

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rarely focusing is bad thing though. Even without RP good player would generally be focus firing. And that's even assuming he needs to do anything more than what he would have done anyway...I have yet to play vs necrons and go "oh crap I had to finish off that unit instead of firing somewhere else".

That's because the codex is generally overpriced and bad. You can focus down any vaguely threatening units (destroyers, bikers etc) and then mop up the rest later.

Necrons suffer from the curse of MEQ and RP is valued as if it was a 5+++. Its not however as good. This is especially true on the smaller elite squads that pay through the nose for no obvious reason.

Doesn't change that if having to focus would be so bad I should have met it.

Also index orks were even worse off so...At least necrons could kill stuff.


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Not Online!!! wrote:

Would a pricecut (say around10-15% ) be enough to get more threats on the table, to the point where oppurtunity cost actually kicks in?
IDK personally.

RP opportunity? Not really. You would have more intact units running around but RP itself would be limited by unit sizes having maximum.

Issue here is price reduction would then turn necrons absolute terror in small games. Non scalable rule like RP is pretty much impossible to point correctly.

Necrons aren't actually that bad in the MW department. C'tan powers in general are better than their psychic equivalents, as they are easier to cast, cannot be denied and don't have a chance of hurting the caster.
C'tan are actually pretty dangerous themselves, though they are fragile.

What necrons do need is better psychic defense; for a race that's supposed to be experienced in fighting psychics, they aren't great at it. They beat the old ones, and only lost to the Eldar because they weakened themselves fighting C'tan.

RP in theory is fine, in practice though its not that great as there's not much synergy compared to the other versions of it; the buffs you can give RP are pathetic.
2CP to reroll 1s is laughable
35 points for a single use item that rerolls RP is a joke.
+1 to RP if you are within 3", and as its at the start of the turn you might have trouble getting in position
The only good buff is from the Ghost Ark, and that's warrior specific.

Not to mention that there's no squad resurrection, even though several armies can do that now.
I think that RP needs to happen at the end of a phase or turn, not at the beginning. Then you can get buffers in position. That's one of the reason why Ghost Arks are so good; you get its rerolls at the end of the movement phase, which gives you a lot of flexibility.

RP opportunity? Not really. You would have more intact units running around but RP itself would be limited by unit sizes having maximum.

Issue here is price reduction would then turn necrons absolute terror in small games. Non scalable rule like RP is pretty much impossible to point correctly.

Well then, it seems that going back to a FNP wannabee save would probably make it better? I mean if anyone is equally disgustingly resilient to DG then mostliekly Necrons no?

tneva82 wrote:
Doesn't change that if having to focus would be so bad I should have met it.

Also index orks were even worse off so...At least necrons could kill stuff.

I encounter it a fair bit. You regularly see people commit to "inefficient" shooting to secure first blood - and with Necrons its like that all the time.
The problem is that RP really only works on big squads of warriors who don't matter. Its a bit annoying on say 6 destroyers - but that's a significant investment that everyone should dedicate to shooting down.
Units of 10 immortals - never mind any other infantry - are too expensive and inflexible to really take while MSU 5 man squads do not really benefit from RP.

Since Index Orks consistently placed higher in tournaments than Necrons I don't really understand the claim they were worse off.

I don't know if a 10-15% drop would cut it - but some units clearly need a reduction. The thing is I think some are screwed. Lychguard are in a similar boat to Terminators. A unit which may get to assault in turn 3 is just bad full stop. Praetorians are a bit of an everything unit - but they do everything badly. The complaints then move to the flyers and some of the vehicles.