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KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I just wish that Drukhari remain a solid army since it's been decades of struggling and now they're good but not overpowered.

I'd agree about some stuff getting hikes in prices but then some other underpoerforming or overcosted units should be fixed. Ravagers could get +10 points, grotesques +5 and talos +5/10, kabalites +1, stop. Maybe the jetfighter could be +5 points too. But wyches must be 6-7 ppm, incubi 13ppm at most, cronos 60ppm. Also the haemy could be slightly cheaper.

Not a flat nerf to the army, which isn't OP at all without the soup. Nerf the soup instead.

SW need some points reductions, but mostly minor changes. 10/14 points for the Claws are insane for example. I'd also like 11-12 ppm Blood Claws since they're just SM with BS4+ and a pistol, they can't be priced like regular marines.

Orks are too new, they won't be covered in CA.

Laughable statament

Why? Elaborate.

 Blackie wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I just wish that Drukhari remain a solid army since it's been decades of struggling and now they're good but not overpowered.

I'd agree about some stuff getting hikes in prices but then some other underpoerforming or overcosted units should be fixed. Ravagers could get +10 points, grotesques +5 and talos +5/10, kabalites +1, stop. Maybe the jetfighter could be +5 points too. But wyches must be 6-7 ppm, incubi 13ppm at most, cronos 60ppm. Also the haemy could be slightly cheaper.

Not a flat nerf to the army, which isn't OP at all without the soup. Nerf the soup instead.

SW need some points reductions, but mostly minor changes. 10/14 points for the Claws are insane for example. I'd also like 11-12 ppm Blood Claws since they're just SM with BS4+ and a pistol, they can't be priced like regular marines.

Orks are too new, they won't be covered in CA.

Laughable statament

Why? Elaborate.

Probably because in your analysis you missed the biggest problem of the codex. Until the dissie cannons get an increase in cost the codex will not be ok by any meter.

I said that ravagers and maybe jetfighters should get a price hike. Dis cannons are fine, they're 15 points which is fair. It's two of their platforms that should be a bit more expensive. Raiders can't cost more than 80 points and they're ok with dis cannon.

And dis cannons are definitely good, ok, but not game breaking and since poison is utterly ineffective against infantries those cannons are the only viable ranged anti infantry we have in the entire codex. If they get a price hike I expect other things getting more effective. Currently 50% of the drukhari codex is basically impossible to field even at casual games. Nerfing one of the most effective things without buffing other stuff would be bad encouragin to soup even more than now. Drukhari are not OP.

You're not serious are you? Dissies outperform TONS of weapons for the price.

Sounds like people are a little to addicted to the -1 strat. Reapers are still better than any imperial heavy weapon infantry by a crazy amount without alaitoc.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like people are a little to addicted to the -1 strat. Reapers are still better than any imperial heavy weapon infantry by a crazy amount without alaitoc.

However, if the rumors are true about the -1 to hit traits, they do lose some of their utility and as compensation they should get a point decrease or Ignore Cover.

Let's not let the past blind us like it blinds GW in balance decisions.

Ummm no. They are crazy undercosted now. Why should they get a discount?

Martel732 wrote:
Ummm no. They are crazy undercosted now. Why should they get a discount?

Maybe he plays the army? I would gladly accept a 160 pts GM NDK fully armed and 15 pts PAGK and 34pts Termintors.

 Blackie wrote:
I said that ravagers and maybe jetfighters should get a price hike. Dis cannons are fine, they're 15 points which is fair. It's two of their platforms that should be a bit more expensive. Raiders can't cost more than 80 points and they're ok with dis cannon.

And dis cannons are definitely good, ok, but not game breaking and since poison is utterly ineffective against infantries those cannons are the only viable ranged anti infantry we have in the entire codex. If they get a price hike I expect other things getting more effective. Currently 50% of the drukhari codex is basically impossible to field even at casual games. Nerfing one of the most effective things without buffing other stuff would be bad encouragin to soup even more than now. Drukhari are not OP.

Ravagers with Dark Lances are not that strong. Ravagers with Dis cannons are very strong. Same on Raiders. Dis Cannons actually average more damage to vehicles than dark lances, and cost less. Therefore the problem is the weapon, not the platform.

Martel732 wrote:
Ummm no. They are crazy undercosted now. Why should they get a discount?

They're not undercosted now. You're simply letting bias cloud your judgment.

Sure thing. Compare to every other missile launcher-type unit in the game. Then take away Alaitoc. They're still OP as feth.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ummm no. They are crazy undercosted now. Why should they get a discount?

They're not undercosted now. You're simply letting bias cloud your judgment.

They were undercosted, right now though, being 102 points minimum for 3 T3 wounds I think they are priced fairly. They're one of those units that will either die turn 1 before making any meaningful impact or be a nuisance all game long. Fortunately, for Aeldari, they can saturate their lists with much more dangerous units to change your target priority which helps reapers indirectly.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure thing. Compare to every other missile launcher-type unit in the game. Then take away Alaitoc. They're still OP as feth.

MLs have been terrible for ages, no matter the army. Dark Reapers existing didn't suddenly change that.

SOOOO maybe the issue here is the imperial ML?

Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Really not seeing what grounds there is for boosting reapers. The logic is lost on me.

Tyel wrote:
Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Really not seeing what grounds there is for boosting reapers. The logic is lost on me.

I gotta say, even after their previous nerf, reapers may not techinically qualify as 'OP' any more but they're still at the high end of the power curve. I don't think losing the alaitoc trait is enough to warrant an immediate buff, especially with Ynnari still being a thing. I think maybe in the next CA you could see them buffed if this change hit them too hard. Changing them now, before seeing how things shakes out is too risky.

If you wanted to buff units to make up for losing alaitoc, I'd go somewhere other than Dark Reapers first and then circle back around.

I was not suggesting that Reapers needed a change because they were no longer protected by a -1 to hit trait. I was suggesting that if army wide -1 traits go away, Inescapable accuracy becomes less useful. Furthermore, if those traits become an increase to cover saves, that effectively makes their weapon AP -1 so they go form being the perfect unit to use against AL/Alaitoc to being overpriced. If their ability goes from being very useful, especially against two top table codexes, to being more of a niche unit, there needs to be a change somewhere.

The loss of -1 traits directly effects the value that Reapers have so I suggested a point change or a change to Inescapable Accuracy. I could see them doing one or the other in the upcoming CA if the traits do indeed change, as we think they might.

But that's even more cornercase. Reapers will still ignore all the hit penalties I can generate, including super sonic and primaris psyker spells. No discount. The -1 army trait should never have been a thing.

I agree that -1 army wide was a bad idea, but since it was a part of this edition, reapers became very good as a result of Inescapable Accuracy, and so had their price increased to match. If that ability becomes less useful, why should someone pay the same price post CA as when reapers were in their prime pre CA? Anyhow, not a big deal. I just figured if the edition was designed with stacking minuses to hit in mind, if that changes, and it would be a pretty significant change, those units with abilities that were designed with those stacking minuses in mind should also be changed.

Instakilling anything that deep strikes is still really awesome. Not rolling for damage? Awesome. Ignoring your own move penalty, the only one you have control over? Awesome. Access to other Eldar buffs? Awesome.

Dawnstrider wrote:
I agree that -1 army wide was a bad idea, but since it was a part of this edition, reapers became very good as a result of Inescapable Accuracy, and so had their price increased to match. If that ability becomes less useful, why should someone pay the same price post CA as when reapers were in their prime pre CA? Anyhow, not a big deal. I just figured if the edition was designed with stacking minuses to hit in mind, if that changes, and it would be a pretty significant change, those units with abilities that were designed with those stacking minuses in mind should also be changed.

Uh, you do realize that -1 to hit traits are limited to four factions, with two of those seeing next to no play?
All other -1 to hit modifiers are still there, so the reaper's abilities remains powerful.

There is no reason to buff reapers against everything that's not allaitoc and alpha legion.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I said that ravagers and maybe jetfighters should get a price hike. Dis cannons are fine, they're 15 points which is fair. It's two of their platforms that should be a bit more expensive. Raiders can't cost more than 80 points and they're ok with dis cannon.

And dis cannons are definitely good, ok, but not game breaking and since poison is utterly ineffective against infantries those cannons are the only viable ranged anti infantry we have in the entire codex. If they get a price hike I expect other things getting more effective. Currently 50% of the drukhari codex is basically impossible to field even at casual games. Nerfing one of the most effective things without buffing other stuff would be bad encouragin to soup even more than now. Drukhari are not OP.

Ravagers with Dark Lances are not that strong. Ravagers with Dis cannons are very strong. Same on Raiders. Dis Cannons actually average more damage to vehicles than dark lances, and cost less. Therefore the problem is the weapon, not the platform.

Only against marines. Dis cannons are good but not game breaking. Just avoid playing primaris

As I said before dis cannons are the only drukhari answer to hordes since poison is pure crap and trueborn with shredders are index only, forbidden in many metas. Nerfing dis cannons could be ok, but the I expect a boost on other underperforming stuff to compensate.

Compare a dis cannon ravager with a razorback with twin assault cannon an stormbolter

Ravager: T6 10W 4+ save and 5+ invuln. 9 S5 AP-3 D2 shots (no heavy penalty) for 125 points

Razorback: T7 10W 3+. 12 S6 AP-1 D1 shots + 2/4 S4 shots for 116 points.

I don't see that much difference, in fact with two of my armies I play 3x both of them everytime. Ravagers are HS so no more than 3 per army, while razorbacks can be spammed, they're cheaper, they can carry troops. Durability is basically the same and damage output is in favor of ravagers but razorbacks are very killy as well, even better against infantries which is the main target of ravagers. Dis cannons are extremely devastaing against marines, that's why people complain about them, but marines have access to the soup (the current top tier) which compensate the issue. I don't see people asking for a nerf to razorbacks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Not only the cronos, but also drazhar, incubi, all the beast pack but clawed fiends, all the court of archon units. Hellions, mandrakes, wracks, scourges, wyches and reavers are all kind of meh. So are all the HQs.

I suggested +10 for ravagers, you suggest +5 per dis cannon. Means +15 in total, not that huge difference Note that 25 points is the cost a Lascannon. It was the cost of dis cannons in the index and no one played them because they were overcosted.

 Blackie wrote:

I don't see that much difference

One is faster, have fly keyword (which means you can kite and can fall back without drawbacks if you need to) and kills models with a good save and/or 2+hp which tends to be expensive.
The other wants to get close while possibly transporting infantry and kills stuff with a poor/medium save and 1 hp which tends to be cheaper (and some times way cheaper, there is a 4 to 1 ratio between guards and primaris for example).

They are quite different imho as you aren't supposed to use them the same way at all and if you do, there is a decent chance you're paying too much for your razorback.

And if you start to compare ravagers with stuff like predators the comparison gets worse.

Also a venom with 2 splinter canons and 5 kabs with a shredder cost 3 point less than your razorback and might be a better comparison (but it's about ravagers so ...)

Dawnstrider wrote:
I agree that -1 army wide was a bad idea, but since it was a part of this edition, reapers became very good as a result of Inescapable Accuracy, and so had their price increased to match. If that ability becomes less useful, why should someone pay the same price post CA as when reapers were in their prime pre CA? Anyhow, not a big deal. I just figured if the edition was designed with stacking minuses to hit in mind, if that changes, and it would be a pretty significant change, those units with abilities that were designed with those stacking minuses in mind should also be changed.

why? well the same reason why the GK stuff which was designed ot work with turn one deep strike in mind, costs the same points, and in case of some units more, then it cost in the index or codex. It is as if for eldar players an ok unit, is a good unit with no down sides and proper cost and an OP unit is only qualified as such, if it is the best unit out of the whole eldar model range. The reapers even without the -1 to be hit, can still survive in serpents to shot turn one, or deep strike turn 2. Without any downsides, with the same powerful buffs and synergies from psychic powers or soul burst. Saying that they should cost less is mind blowing. You pay less for a reaper then I have to pay for 2 GK with stormbolters or 1 termintors with a stormbolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't see that much difference, in fact with two of my armies I play 3x both of them everytime. Ravagers are HS so no more than 3 per army, while razorbacks can be spammed, they're cheaper, they can carry troops. Durability is basically the same and damage output is in favor of ravagers but razorbacks are very killy as well, even better against infantries which is the main target of ravagers. Dis cannons are extremely devastaing against marines, that's why people complain about them, but marines have access to the soup (the current top tier) which compensate the issue. I don't see people asking for a nerf to razorbacks.

But they are not cheaper. The troops you have to buy to get the razorbacks cost more then kabalites. And don't talk about soup. You guys have farseers, which are a multiplier comperable to gulliman with less points and more, and better units being effected. Specially if you also run Inari in your list.

You don't have to buy troops to get Razorbacks. You just need any non-dedicated transport to unlock each dedicated transport slot.

You can bring a Stormraven and then 'give' that a Razorback

dhallnet wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I don't see that much difference

One is faster, have fly keyword (which means you can kite and can fall back without drawbacks if you need to) and kills models with a good save and/or 2+hp which tends to be expensive.
The other wants to get close while possibly transporting infantry and kills stuff with a poor/medium save and 1 hp which tends to be cheaper (and some times way cheaper, there is a 4 to 1 ratio between guards and primaris for example).

They are quite different imho as you aren't supposed to use them the same way at all and if you do, there is a decent chance you're paying too much for your razorback.

Of course style of playing is different, but both drukhari and SM players bring those two vehicles for the same reason: to dispose of a lot of shots of medium strenght, that can kill a lot of cheap dudes but don't suck against other targets. Poison wounds on 4s T3 models and doesn't bypass any save. Transport capacity for razorbacks is a bonus, they're mostly played as gunboats.

dhallnet wrote:


And if you start to compare ravagers with stuff like predators the comparison gets worse.

I won't. Since predators are anti tank only while dis cannons ravagers are supposed to clear infantries and heavy infantries. Dis cannons are drukhari's heavy bolters and assault cannons, that's their role. There aren't other ranged anti infantry in the codex weapons that can be spammed, just poison, which is worse than bolters against the targets we need to clear (T3 and T4 low saves mostly). Dis cannons are good because they're also versatile, but at 25 points each no one would use them and it would be too harsh on the army.

dhallnet wrote:


Also a venom with 2 splinter canons and 5 kabs with a shredder cost 3 point less than your razorback and might be a better comparison (but it's about ravagers so ...)

That venom costs 75 points for 6/12 poisoned shots, T5 6W. With the unit embarked you get 10/20 poisoned shots and D6 S6 AP-1 shots which suffer from the crappy 12'' range. Outside rapid fire range you get an average of 7 hits, that are 3-4 wounds against T3,T4 and then you have to roll the saves. In rapid fire range approx 13-14 hits and 6-7 wounds, then again you must consider the saves, plus 2-3 hits with the shredder, tipycally an additional 2 wounds with AP-1. That venom should kill 1-2 screeners on average at distance and 6-7 in shredder range. The razorback is way more killy, and has a better range: with average rolls it should kill 5-6 dudes with the heavy weapon penalty and 8-9 if it didn't moved. I haven't considered the auras re-rolls, which buff razorbacks more than venoms since the crew embarked doesn't get the aura.

In fact I basically use my venoms as mobile sources of a single Blaster shot, with poison as some sort of "better than nothing" bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
And don't talk about soup.

I mentioned soups because most of the complaints about dis cannons comes from competitive players that have no problem in bringing a soup, and imperial soups are not less competitive than aeldari ones. Nerfing only the competitive aeldari units and not the imperium ones wouldn't be fair.

I think your numbers are off here. How exactly is a razorback killing 8-9 it it doesn't move?

I mean shooting Orks in optimal conditions:
12*2/3*2/3=5.333.
4 (this isn't likely to happen)*2/3*2/3*5/6=1.48.

So a bit under 7 against the best target there is.
Meanwhile the venom kills 3.3. (12*2/3*1/2*5/6)
4 Kabs in rapid fire kill 2.2. (8*2/3*1/2*5/6)
Shredder kills another 1.5. (3.5*2/3*2/3)
Total: 7.

So about the same - maybe fractionally more.

The issue with a Ravager is that it is good versus any target except Orks, Guardsmen, Cultists etc. Especially when you put the obligatory reroll 1 to hit aura and the highly likely reroll 1 to wound aura. (Not even touching Doom). Also they get a 6+++ because you are taking them as Black Heart and we all know it.

Now sure you can stack reroll 1 auras on stationary razorbacks - but this is a lot less flexible than being able to move wherever you want, taking advantage of terrain. I'd argue that T7/3+ is considerably worse than 4+/5++/6+++ versus most weapons that are vaguely efficient versus these vehicles. The Ravager only really comes off worse versus Autocannons which are not all that plentiful in a knight-based meta.

Tyel wrote:
Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Really not seeing what grounds there is for boosting reapers. The logic is lost on me.

Dissies are assault grav cannons, thats a 30 point weapon minimum.... or grav cannons need to be 10-15 points tops

Tyel wrote:
I think your numbers are off here. How exactly is a razorback killing 8-9 it it doesn't move?

I mean shooting Orks in optimal conditions:
12*2/3*2/3=5.333.
4 (this isn't likely to happen)*2/3*2/3*5/6=1.48.

So a bit under 7 against the best target there is.
Meanwhile the venom kills 3.3. (12*2/3*1/2*5/6)
4 Kabs in rapid fire kill 2.2. (8*2/3*1/2*5/6)
Shredder kills another 1.5. (3.5*2/3*2/3)
Total: 7.

So about the same - maybe fractionally more.

The issue with a Ravager is that it is good versus any target except Orks, Guardsmen, Cultists etc. Especially when you put the obligatory reroll 1 to hit aura and the highly likely reroll 1 to wound aura. (Not even touching Doom). Also they get a 6+++ because you are taking them as Black Heart and we all know it.

Now sure you can stack reroll 1 auras on stationary razorbacks - but this is a lot less flexible than being able to move wherever you want, taking advantage of terrain. I'd argue that T7/3+ is considerably worse than 4+/5++/6+++ versus most weapons that are vaguely efficient versus these vehicles. The Ravager only really comes off worse versus Autocannons which are not all that plentiful in a knight-based meta.

I considered T3 bodies since orks hordes are not a thing anymore. Against T3 dudes 12 shots with the ass can is 8 hits wounding on 2s plus the stormbolter which is another 3 hits and 2 wounds in rapid fire range. The ass cannon has 24'' range, rapid fire poison only 18'' and shredder even 12''. That also should be factored in.

Black Heart improves ravagers of course but to get that re-roll you need a tax archon on foot and all the vehicles in the same spot. Ravagers are considered good also because of their mobility, but to get the archon's aura they need to remain in the same spot. 6+ fnp is +1 or 2 wounds on average. It helps but it's not a huge difference.

In a knight-based meta dark lances are more useful than dis cannons.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Really not seeing what grounds there is for boosting reapers. The logic is lost on me.

Dissies are assault grav cannons, thats a 30 point weapon minimum.... or grav cannons need to be 10-15 points tops

I'd never made that comparison before, mainly because I've never seen a grav-cannon used in 8th.

The dissy needs to be at least 20 points, no weapons should be the best option in all situations for its points. Its fine being good against all targets but that versatility needs to come with a hefty price tag.

If the Grav-cannon was also dropped to 20 then that may become a semi-useful weapon perhaps.

I won't. Since predators are anti tank only while dis cannons ravagers are supposed to clear infantries and heavy infantries. Dis cannons are drukhari's heavy bolters and assault cannons, that's their role. There aren't other ranged anti infantry in the codex weapons that can be spammed, just poison, which is worse than bolters against the targets we need to clear (T3 and T4 low saves mostly). Dis cannons are good because they're also versatile, but at 25 points each no one would use them and it would be too harsh on the army.

Perhaps someone could math out a dissy ravager compared to a heavybolter, autocannon predator, if the dissy is the DE heavy bolter they serve similar roles, with the pred being slightly more durable (debatable) and the ravager having much greater mobility and the fly keyword which is always undercosted.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Dissies should be 20 points at least.
Really not sure what 50% of DE cant be played in a casual game. Only the Cronus looks like something from a bad Marine datasheet.

Really not seeing what grounds there is for boosting reapers. The logic is lost on me.

Dissies are assault grav cannons, thats a 30 point weapon minimum.... or grav cannons need to be 10-15 points tops

True, they look like grav cannons. But drukhari don't have other ranged options for heavy infantries. Grav cannons may be cheaper but then heavy bolters and ass cannons shouldn't be that easy to spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WisdomLS wrote:


Perhaps someone could math out a dissy ravager compared to a heavybolter, autocannon predator, if the dissy is the DE heavy bolter they serve similar roles, with the pred being slightly more durable (debatable) and the ravager having much greater mobility and the fly keyword which is always undercosted.

Maybe, but what are the alternatives for drukhari for that role? SM have several solutions, drukhari don't.

Again, I'm all in favor of getting things priced correctly but if some of the most effective drukhari units and wargear gets a price hike, then the underperforming stuff should be buffed or discounted. A flat nerf to an army that isn't overpowered at all would be dumb. AM should get tons of price hikes since one year and a half and yet their undercosted weapons still bully the tables.