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Straight_Memer wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Marines are gonna suck even harder because everyone will be taking gobs of high ap

Why take low strength low AP weapons anymore if all the basic troops are getting price increases (Ork boyz to 7ppm). Every tournament list for Orkz I have seen recently has gone from 180-240 Boyz to 60-90 with 90 being rare. So we are getting away from TAC lists and getting more into skew lists across the board and at the moment that means Anti-armor is going to get a priority in place as opposed to high ROF low AP weapons.

I'm sorry, how is 180-240 boyz NOT a skew list? 180-240 is not only a HARDCORE skew list, it is also THE most bullgak army to play against ever. Oh yes, I super love to spend 40 minutes in your first movement phase another 20 in your first shooting phase and another 35 in your first combat phase. Screw horde skew lists, I'd rather go against 10 Castellans.

Show me on this miniture where idex orks touched you

Ork lists don't have enough time to do any touching. By the time they're done with their second movement phase the tournament has been over for a week and everyone declared them the winner out of pity.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

I'm starting to expect CA2018 will be released in 2019.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I'm starting to expect CA2018 will be released in 2019.

Why? Because GW have had leakers keep a lid on details?

 kastelen wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I'm starting to expect CA2018 will be released in 2019.

Why? Because GW have had leakers keep a lid on details?

If its up on pre-order next Saturday its perhaps surprising there have not been more leaks.

Hoping for some articles on Warhammer Community this week.

Is it already next saturday?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ERJAK wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Marines are gonna suck even harder because everyone will be taking gobs of high ap

Why take low strength low AP weapons anymore if all the basic troops are getting price increases (Ork boyz to 7ppm). Every tournament list for Orkz I have seen recently has gone from 180-240 Boyz to 60-90 with 90 being rare. So we are getting away from TAC lists and getting more into skew lists across the board and at the moment that means Anti-armor is going to get a priority in place as opposed to high ROF low AP weapons.

I'm sorry, how is 180-240 boyz NOT a skew list? 180-240 is not only a HARDCORE skew list, it is also THE most bullgak army to play against ever. Oh yes, I super love to spend 40 minutes in your first movement phase another 20 in your first shooting phase and another 35 in your first combat phase. Screw horde skew lists, I'd rather go against 10 Castellans.

I guess the point alluded you. Horde armies have been a thing since...forever. Sorry that some dillweed slow played you into this much anger but that isn't how most people played. But getting back to the point, if all basic troops are getting nerfed with point increases than you can expect more expensive stuff with better saves/toughness which means more anti-armor weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Everybody loses a bunch of models, even if they're expensive. That's par for the course. I swear half the issue is people are more precious about their marines than they are about other models, regardless of expense. Genestealers are 12 ppm, but you don't hear Tyranid players crying about them dying.

Maybe because Tyranids have cheaper models and the 11-13ppm isnt his cheaper infantry option.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Everybody loses a bunch of models, even if they're expensive. That's par for the course. I swear half the issue is people are more precious about their marines than they are about other models, regardless of expense. Genestealers are 12 ppm, but you don't hear Tyranid players crying about them dying.

I wouldn't mind if they did anything before dying. I honestly have no problem with marines dying if their Ballistic skill or weaponry meant they could actually do some damage before they bought the farm.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Everybody loses a bunch of models, even if they're expensive. That's par for the course. I swear half the issue is people are more precious about their marines than they are about other models, regardless of expense. Genestealers are 12 ppm, but you don't hear Tyranid players crying about them dying.

Diffrence between a tac marine at 13 and a genestealer at 12 is a genestealer has a purpose.

Also it's not really 13 point models it avarages out at 16 or 18 by the time you add special or combi weapons.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Just because your little dudes are dying doesn't mean you're losing.

It does when your dudes are 13ppm.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Everybody loses a bunch of models, even if they're expensive. That's par for the course. I swear half the issue is people are more precious about their marines than they are about other models, regardless of expense. Genestealers are 12 ppm, but you don't hear Tyranid players crying about them dying.

That’s because Tyranid players know they’re getting a capable unit with a good balance of value vs potential. Marines pay +1 point for a model that will do nothing by comparison. Stealers give a nid player strategic value. Tactical marines give SM players ablative wounds for a heavy weapon.

Looks like hard and soft cover is back, but I'm guessing as a +1/+2 rather than invulns. Unless it's city fight only?

I wnder how much the expensive version with Sisters data cards is ging to set me back

I kind of what space marines to be super expensive but also super elite... like their 20pts each but their standard gun is -4 and bypasses invlun saves or something stupid. XD Make them less models that do stupid good damage. Just lore wise it makes no sense how 1 ork is basically the same strength and toughness as a space marine... But at the same time an Ork should be S4 and T4.... But a Marine should be like S7 T7. XD

 lolman1c wrote:
I kind of what space marines to be super expensive but also super elite... like their 20pts each but their standard gun is -4 and bypasses invlun saves or something stupid. XD Make them less models that do stupid good damage. Just lore wise it makes no sense how 1 ork is basically the same strength and toughness as a space marine... But at the same time an Ork should be S4 and T4.... But a Marine should be like S7 T7. XD

So essentially you want to break the game?

 lolman1c wrote:
I kind of what space marines to be super expensive but also super elite... like their 20pts each but their standard gun is -4 and bypasses invlun saves or something stupid. XD Make them less models that do stupid good damage. Just lore wise it makes no sense how 1 ork is basically the same strength and toughness as a space marine... But at the same time an Ork should be S4 and T4.... But a Marine should be like S7 T7. XD

Just make them rapid fire 2 and 2 attacks and they will be fine.

 Stux wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I kind of what space marines to be super expensive but also super elite... like their 20pts each but their standard gun is -4 and bypasses invlun saves or something stupid. XD Make them less models that do stupid good damage. Just lore wise it makes no sense how 1 ork is basically the same strength and toughness as a space marine... But at the same time an Ork should be S4 and T4.... But a Marine should be like S7 T7. XD

So essentially you want to break the game?

if you point anything correctly then it doesn't break the game. XD 1 marine could be 2000 points and has a 2+ invlun 50 shots each. XD But seriously, watched a game where every space marine had the stats of a captain and they still got their asses handed to them. XD

Because the Wound stat, unless accompanied with a high inv with re-roll and high T, doesn't meen much. Vs a ton of armies being 1W is better then being 2W, because 1W models don't pay for that extra wound , why both die just as easy.

 Galas wrote:
Maybe because Tyranids have cheaper models and the 11-13ppm isnt his cheaper infantry option.

Well the fact that 13 point models are dying would hardly be an issue then. Even in a Tyranid army you can shoot the expensive models instead of the cheap ones.

Banville wrote:

I wouldn't mind if they did anything before dying. I honestly have no problem with marines dying if their Ballistic skill or weaponry meant they could actually do some damage before they bought the farm.

How much damage are we talking about? I think thats an interesting question. What's the threshold of damage potential per unit/squad that you're looking for?

Bremon wrote:

That’s because Tyranid players know they’re getting a capable unit with a good balance of value vs potential. Marines pay +1 point for a model that will do nothing by comparison. Stealers give a nid player strategic value. Tactical marines give SM players ablative wounds for a heavy weapon.

A lot of those Genestealers are ablative.

Ice_can wrote:

Diffrence between a tac marine at 13 and a genestealer at 12 is a genestealer has a purpose.

Also it's not really 13 point models it avarages out at 16 or 18 by the time you add special or combi weapons.

How does a Tac marine not have a purpose? It's not a specialist like the Genestealer, if that's what you mean. Generalist doesn't mean lacking purpose though.

You might mean "not good at any particular task for It's points, compared to other choices in the codex" but that's still not "no purpose".

 lolman1c wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I kind of what space marines to be super expensive but also super elite... like their 20pts each but their standard gun is -4 and bypasses invlun saves or something stupid. XD Make them less models that do stupid good damage. Just lore wise it makes no sense how 1 ork is basically the same strength and toughness as a space marine... But at the same time an Ork should be S4 and T4.... But a Marine should be like S7 T7. XD

So essentially you want to break the game?

if you point anything correctly then it doesn't break the game. XD 1 marine could be 2000 points and has a 2+ invlun 50 shots each. XD But seriously, watched a game where every space marine had the stats of a captain and they still got their asses handed to them. XD

Ok.. buy your suggestion was specifically to make Marines 20pts with T7 and S7 and make Bolters AP -4, and ignore Invulns.

You can't balance it with points if you've already set the points

All that said, simplest way to run "movie marines" is just as counts-as Custodes.

Armor isn't worth what GW charges for it. 13 points, all else equal, should buy a 4++ or so, not a 3+. Hence a 9 point model gets a 4 point surcharge that is just free points for the opponent. All armies have this on some units, but not on base troops.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Armor isn't worth what GW charges for it. 13 points, all else equal, should buy a 4++ or so, not a 3+. Hence a 9 point model gets a 4 point surcharge that is just free points for the opponent. All armies have this on some units, but not on base troops.

13 points for a 4++ would make guardsmen even better against marines.

You can get into really weird design spaces with invuln saves.

Tyel wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I'm starting to expect CA2018 will be released in 2019.

Why? Because GW have had leakers keep a lid on details?

If its up on pre-order next Saturday its perhaps surprising there have not been more leaks.

Hoping for some articles on Warhammer Community this week.

CA2018 confirmed to be released on the 15th.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/02/pre-order-preview-vigilus-defiant-and-chapter-approved/

The tac marine statline is dead. It tries to live in an almost non-existent balancing space between a battle sister and an intercessor and fails miserably.

SemperMortis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Marines are gonna suck even harder because everyone will be taking gobs of high ap

Why take low strength low AP weapons anymore if all the basic troops are getting price increases (Ork boyz to 7ppm). Every tournament list for Orkz I have seen recently has gone from 180-240 Boyz to 60-90 with 90 being rare. So we are getting away from TAC lists and getting more into skew lists across the board and at the moment that means Anti-armor is going to get a priority in place as opposed to high ROF low AP weapons.

I'm sorry, how is 180-240 boyz NOT a skew list? 180-240 is not only a HARDCORE skew list, it is also THE most bullgak army to play against ever. Oh yes, I super love to spend 40 minutes in your first movement phase another 20 in your first shooting phase and another 35 in your first combat phase. Screw horde skew lists, I'd rather go against 10 Castellans.

I guess the point alluded you. Horde armies have been a thing since...forever. Sorry that some dillweed slow played you into this much anger but that isn't how most people played. But getting back to the point, if all basic troops are getting nerfed with point increases than you can expect more expensive stuff with better saves/toughness which means more anti-armor weapons.

And I guess my point alluded you, which is weird considering how much more I emphasized it than you did. Horde lists are unhealthy skew lists in the exact same way that every other type of 'spam' list is. They are not in ANY way TAC lists and force armies to skew their responses towards anti-infantry the same way Knight lists push people toward anti-vehicle. Them existing for 'forever' doesn't make them any less awful. The only difference between them and the 'leafblower' lists is that leafblower lists are far kinder. At least those games are over quickly. The 'point' you reiterated in the second comment isn't really even worth addressing, it's just stating something exceptionally obvious. The sky is blue also, if you were curious.

w1zard wrote:
The tac marine statline is dead. It tries to live in an almost non-existent balancing space between a battle sister and an intercessor and fails miserably.

Yeah, and Intercessors aren't even good

 Stux wrote:
All that said, simplest way to run "movie marines" is just as counts-as Custodes.

If this CA doesn't drop Marine points far enough that's probably going to be the best use for marines in general until 9th comes out. It will certainly cut down on the volume of models I have to take to the LGS if all my Marines are pretending to be Custodes. I'm still hopeful it won't come to that though.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The tac marine statline is dead. It tries to live in an almost non-existent balancing space between a battle sister and an intercessor and fails miserably.

Yeah, and Intercessors aren't even good

They need some pro active rule to be ok. If they had exploding somethin on +6 to hit for example, or being able to shot twice if they don't move