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2018/12/05 19:31:05
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
However if they follow Jormungandr, it will not apply to models with FLY keyword. So, no 2+ Hemlocks. Would be my guess.
This would make Alaitoc worthless as jet bikes, grav tanks, etc all have fly. If that happens, Everyone will play Ulthwe for the free 6+++
Not entirely true.
Wraithguards, Wraithblades, Dark Reapers, Wraithknights, Guardians, etc. all do not have fly.
Silly knee-jerk reactions aside, this would make the trait balanced in that you actually consider what trait is best for your army.
You're not serious are you? It wouldn't be a consideration at all in that situation.
That entirely depends on if it's: A) cover all the time even in the open B) bonus to cover if you actually are in cover C) both A & B
If it's A or B, I'd agree it would suck if it didn't apply to models with FLY If it's C, it might still be worth considering if you have a more Infantry bases list
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/05 19:36:51
gendoikari87 wrote: If it turns out to be +1 to cover, mechanicus just got stupid op. An arny of 2+ effectively without paying for it
Not sure I get your meaning. Marines and Terminators would have 1+/0+ in cover respectively with +1 to cover and I highly doubt that would make them OP. Remember that RG/AL/Alaitoc only work outside 12", so getting around them and outright ignoring the trait is possible. That will most likely remain true.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 19:50:13
gendoikari87 wrote: If it turns out to be +1 to cover, mechanicus just got stupid op. An arny of 2+ effectively without paying for it
Not sure I get your meaning. Marines and Terminators would have 1+/0+ in cover respectively with +1 to cover and I highly doubt that would make them OP.
Remember that RG/AL/Alaitoc only work outside 12", so getting around them and outright ignoring the trait is possible. That will most likely remain true.
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The robots and walkers would be annoying. Melta might be finally relevant (and ignore cover). Interesting to see either way.
2018/12/05 19:53:55
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.
I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.
Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.
It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/12/05 19:58:53
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Marmatag wrote: This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.
I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.
Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.
It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.
So long as they also remove the 12" bubble, that'd be fair, But currently Alaitoc/RG/AL can be ignored by just getting within 12".
I agree it needs to be a cover bonus instead of a -1 to hit, but just being cover is both lazy and makes it the absolute worse CWE trait
But saying Alaitoc can have the trait AL and RG are gonna have, but half their units can't use it because Fly, and the other half must choose between using it or their Army Special Rule (BattleFocus)?
2018/12/05 20:03:52
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Reemule wrote: A lot of ambiguity would have been cleared up if GW has labeled Ruins as buildings... Not ruins, and made that clear that a ruin was still a building.
yeah, that doesn't seem ambiguous at all.
Let me help you.
is this a ruin?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:04:56
2018/12/05 20:04:20
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Bharring wrote: But saying Alaitoc can have the trait AL and RG are gonna have, but half their units can't use it because Fly, and the other half must choose between using it or their Army Special Rule (BattleFocus)?
Seems unlikely that Eldar would follow the Jorm model.
Reemule wrote: A lot of ambiguity would have been cleared up if GW has labeled Ruins as buildings... Not ruins, and made that clear that a ruin was still a building.
yeah, that doesn't seem ambiguous at all.
Let me help you.
is this a ruin?
The link is certainly ruined.
2018/12/05 20:05:26
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
gendoikari87 wrote: If it turns out to be +1 to cover, mechanicus just got stupid op. An arny of 2+ effectively without paying for it
Not sure I get your meaning. Marines and Terminators would have 1+/0+ in cover respectively with +1 to cover and I highly doubt that would make them OP.
Remember that RG/AL/Alaitoc only work outside 12", so getting around them and outright ignoring the trait is possible. That will most likely remain true.
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stygies will give an additional +1 cover , canticles basically becomes an auto “get shroudpsalm however you can, and skitarii are then 2+ against shooting
Bharring wrote: But saying Alaitoc can have the trait AL and RG are gonna have, but half their units can't use it because Fly, and the other half must choose between using it or their Army Special Rule (BattleFocus)?
Seems unlikely that Eldar would follow the Jorm model.
Agreed as that would be really dumb of GW. I still hold that what is most likely to happen is that Alaitoc/RG/AL will become something like the following: "Units with this trait receive an additional +1 cover bonus if both in cover and targeted by an enemy outside 12". This will usually result in +2 to the armour save roll"
Not ideal, but useful. It also pretty much means it would not apply to units with FLY, because those units rarely receive cover as is, which is why I really hope it also counts units in the open as also in cover (but with just the regular +1). Certainly would make Swooping Hawks and Spiders interesting though, as being Infantry would mean they could get cover easier
And the precedence for fast flying units to recieve better saves has been around for several additions. It's why armour saves were treated as Invuls on turboboosting jetbikes in 4E and why Jink 5++ save was given to bikes and skimmers in the last few editions. Alaitoc/RG/AL could easily be better at using this tactic along with other tactics to hide/obscure their units from sight
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:14:52
However if they follow Jormungandr, it will not apply to models with FLY keyword. So, no 2+ Hemlocks. Would be my guess.
This would make Alaitoc worthless as jet bikes, grav tanks, etc all have fly. If that happens, Everyone will play Ulthwe for the free 6+++
Iron Hands have the 6+++ and I know from experience it doesn't feel like it does much.
I bet it would feel stronger if it worked on tanks. It certainly is super helpful on Primaris let along Wraithblades with a 4++ and 3 wounds.
Yeah on 1 or 2 wound models you might get another wound out of them 1 in 6 dead or 1 in 3 dead models at best which drops off if your being shot with D2+ or D3+ weapons, but on a vehical with multiple wounds it finally actually impacts the game.
2018/12/05 20:12:24
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Marmatag wrote: This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.
I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.
Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.
It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.
IDK if that is equal to compare the two tho, if Tyranids MC were actually balanced having 2+ or even 2+ ignore 1 point of rend MC that are impactful in the game could be worst than -1 to hit, the -1 to hit is only strong b.c they can stack it to -2 and -3 so easily, (or even units like Warriors, Pyrovores, etc..)
I play Harlequins and i promise you a basic -1 isnt all that strong, especially on things that are T3-T5, there is just to many guns with -1, -2, ap or to much value.
Lets look at it this way.
Bolter, 100 shots vs T4, 4+ (Tyranid warrior) with -1 to hit its 12.50 wounds, with +1 save its 11.11 wounds HB, 100 shots vs T4, 4+ (Tyranid warrior) with -1 to hit its 22.22 wounds, with +1 to save it 22.22 wounds
So its really a wash depending on the weapon, and in some cases the +1sv is better than a -1 to hit
Now... with full Re-rolls the -1 to hit will always be better (tho very few armies actually get full re-rolls to hits via shooting)
But these armies can still get -1 to hit, CWE, Quins, DE, Tyranids, etc.. can all have -1 to hit in some way or another.
I think units like Rangers getting an addition +1sv, still having a -1 to hit, will make them even stronger for the most part, especially b.c the units that are shooting them wont be plasma type of weapons, but S4-S5 mass fire ones, they will effectively be -1/2+ at all times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:13:48
Insectum7 wrote: Lets hope all flamers get at least the upgrade to ignore cover. That'd be nice.
Agreed, although I'd be just as happy with them being 2d6 hits instead. That could just as easily represent "ignores cover" both statistically and from the lore of laying down gouts of indiscriminant fire
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:19:19
Insectum7 wrote: Lets hope all flamers get at least the upgrade to ignore cover. That'd be nice.
Agreed, although I'd be just as happy with them being 2d6 hits instead. That could just as easily represent "ignores cover" both statistically and from the lore of laying down gouts of indiscriminant fire
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Seems less likely, but yeah, that'd be nice. It'd actually start to be an effective anti-horde weapon. Flamers used to be absolute murder to GEQ. I miss that.
It'd also be a nice Assault Squad boost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:24:40
Insectum7 wrote: Lets hope all flamers get at least the upgrade to ignore cover. That'd be nice.
Agreed, although I'd be just as happy with them being 2d6 hits instead. That could just as easily represent "ignores cover" both statistically and from the lore of laying down gouts of indiscriminant fire
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Seems less likely, but yeah, that'd be nice. It'd actually start to be an effective anti-horde weapon. Flamers used to be absolute murder to GEQ. I miss that.
Yeah, flamers should absolutely do more hits to return them to a useful weapon. Right now they just seem like an auto-hit Bolter with shorter range that sometimes gets more hits. It would be just as easy to add "ignores cover" as it would be to add the following rule to all weapons with "Flamer" in their name: "If the target unit contains 5 or more models, change the weapons type from Assault D6 to Assault 2D6". Done and easy
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:27:23
Bharring wrote: But saying Alaitoc can have the trait AL and RG are gonna have, but half their units can't use it because Fly, and the other half must choose between using it or their Army Special Rule (BattleFocus)?
Seems unlikely that Eldar would follow the Jorm model.
Agreed as that would be really dumb of GW.
I still hold that what is most likely to happen is that Alaitoc/RG/AL will become something like the following:
"Units with this trait receive an additional +1 cover bonus if both in cover and targeted by an enemy outside 12". This will usually result in +2 to the armour save roll"
Not ideal, but useful. It also pretty much means it would not apply to units with FLY, because those units rarely receive cover as is, which is why I really hope it also counts units in the open as also in cover (but with just the regular +1).
Certainly would make Swooping Hawks and Spiders interesting though, as being Infantry would mean they could get cover easier
And the precedence for fast flying units to recieve better saves has been around for several additions. It's why armour saves were treated as Invuls on turboboosting jetbikes in 4E and why Jink 5++ save was given to bikes and skimmers in the last few editions.
Alaitoc/RG/AL could easily be better at using this tactic along with other tactics to hide/obscure their units from sight
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Why wouldn't the following work for them
A unit with this tactic receives the benefit of cover, even while in the open. A unit with this tactic that moves for any reason loses the benefit of this tenet until the start of its next Movement phase.
2018/12/05 20:30:48
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
It would be just as easy to add "ignores cover" as it would be to add the following rule to all weapons with "Flamer" in their name:
"If the target unit contains 5 or more models, change the weapons type from Assault D6 to Assault 2D6". Done and easy
A unit with this tactic receives the benefit of cover, even while in the open. A unit with this tactic that moves for any reason loses the benefit of this tenet until the start of its next Movement phase.
Why wouldn't a rule that requires the most mobile army in 40K to remain stationary not work? Let me think about that one. Contrary to the meta, Eldar are not a gunline army. Even our "heavy" options have always been given special rules to allow them to move. And for the last few additions, we've been given an army-wide rule to encourage us to move as fast as possible
No, it needs to be at least +1 cover if you're in cover regardless of movement. Giving cover in the open would be a nice bonus to that, but isn't enough for the trait alone
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:34:14
A unit with this tactic receives the benefit of cover, even while in the open. A unit with this tactic that moves for any reason loses the benefit of this tenet until the start of its next Movement phase.
Why wouldn't a rule that requires the most mobile army in 40K to remain stationary not work? Let me think about that one.
Contrary to the meta, Eldar are not a gunline army. Even our "heavy" options have always been given special rules to allow them to move.
No, it needs to be at least +1 cover if you're in cover regardless of movement. Giving cover in the open would be a nice bonus to that, but isn't enough for the trait alone
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Is your complaint that the trait is bad or that eldar shouldn't be forced to choose between better saves and mobility?
2018/12/05 20:43:55
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
A unit with this tactic receives the benefit of cover, even while in the open. A unit with this tactic that moves for any reason loses the benefit of this tenet until the start of its next Movement phase.
Why wouldn't a rule that requires the most mobile army in 40K to remain stationary not work? Let me think about that one.
Contrary to the meta, Eldar are not a gunline army. Even our "heavy" options have always been given special rules to allow them to move.
No, it needs to be at least +1 cover if you're in cover regardless of movement. Giving cover in the open would be a nice bonus to that, but isn't enough for the trait alone
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Is your complaint that the trait is bad or that eldar shouldn't be forced to choose between better saves and mobility?
It’s a useless trait, Tau have it and even they won’t use it despite theoretically needing to move less than Eldar.
2018/12/05 20:44:52
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
A unit with this tactic receives the benefit of cover, even while in the open. A unit with this tactic that moves for any reason loses the benefit of this tenet until the start of its next Movement phase.
Why wouldn't a rule that requires the most mobile army in 40K to remain stationary not work? Let me think about that one.
Contrary to the meta, Eldar are not a gunline army. Even our "heavy" options have always been given special rules to allow them to move.
No, it needs to be at least +1 cover if you're in cover regardless of movement. Giving cover in the open would be a nice bonus to that, but isn't enough for the trait alone
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Is your complaint that the trait is bad or that eldar shouldn't be forced to choose between better saves and mobility?
My complaint is that several people have claimed that making Alaitoc just be cover in the open would make it balanced amongst the other traits. And that "might" be the case. But to further add retrictions like "as long as they don't move" or "doesn't apply to units with FLY" would absolutely, unequivocally make Alaitoc the worst CWE trait.
The point should NEVER be to nerf a rule to uselessness. It should always be for balance.
I'd like to see cover in the open + additional +1 for being in cover outside 12". But I'd settle for just additional +1 for being in cover.
But whatever happens, I would be surprised if the "outside 12" clause was removed, so adding further ways to outright remove the trait's usefulness are just egregious.
could see flamers going to 2d6, and burna to 1d6 to counter hordes, however would also suggest the following:
- flamer can inflict no more that two hits on any single model in a unit, excess hits are lost (to stop them being character assassination tools, also stops them being the anti flier weapons they are), this to apply to all flamers fired by a unit as a group - so five flamers generate 10d6 hits, but no more than two per model.
- flamers halve the number of hits (rounding up) in overwatch to represent the lack of time to prepare (basically so hordes can still actually charge a unit with flamers without it being outright suicide)
2018/12/05 20:59:12
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
15k+
Beastmen 10k
