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Flamers inflict 1 hit for every model in a unit. If we are wishlisting, why not go all out?

leopard wrote:
could see flamers going to 2d6, and burna to 1d6 to counter hordes, however would also suggest the following:

- flamer can inflict no more that two hits on any single model in a unit, excess hits are lost (to stop them being character assassination tools, also stops them being the anti flier weapons they are), this to apply to all flamers fired by a unit as a group - so five flamers generate 10d6 hits, but no more than two per model.
- flamers halve the number of hits (rounding up) in overwatch to represent the lack of time to prepare (basically so hordes can still actually charge a unit with flamers without it being outright suicide)

Hordes can already charge units with flamers and outright ignore the flamers. They just need to start their charge 8.1" away

-

"That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?"
Nids might have more units than Eldar have units with Fly. But I'm not even confident of that.

I think CWE has more Fly units than non-Fly units, offhand. And CWE have a *lot* of entries.

 Galef wrote:

leopard wrote:
could see flamers going to 2d6, and burna to 1d6 to counter hordes, however would also suggest the following:

- flamer can inflict no more that two hits on any single model in a unit, excess hits are lost (to stop them being character assassination tools, also stops them being the anti flier weapons they are), this to apply to all flamers fired by a unit as a group - so five flamers generate 10d6 hits, but no more than two per model.
- flamers halve the number of hits (rounding up) in overwatch to represent the lack of time to prepare (basically so hordes can still actually charge a unit with flamers without it being outright suicide)

Hordes can already charge units with flamers and outright ignore the flamers. They just need to start their charge 8.1" away

-

And that's a risky charge. With a reroll, that's only slightly better than 50% to make it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.

I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.

Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.

It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.

That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?

Probably about the same number.
Tyranids have 12 without FW, i guess that Eldar have about the same.

I'd actually prefer that flamers do something completely different in overwatch.

Wall of flame: any model over watching with a flamer ignores it's normal profile and rolls a d3. Subtract the result from the charge range of any unit charging this unit and they suffer -1 LD till the end of the turn. This ability does not stack for multiple flamers.




Heavy flamers would reduce charge range by 3 and drop LD by 2.

Spoletta wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.

I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.

Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.

It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.

That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?

Probably about the same number.
Tyranids have 12 without FW, i guess that Eldar have about the same.

No, Eldar have a LOT more than 12 units with FLY.
It's closer to 20 I think

-

Bharring wrote:
"That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?"
Nids might have more units than Eldar have units with Fly. But I'm not even confident of that.

I think CWE has more Fly units than non-Fly units, offhand. And CWE have a *lot* of entries.

It will be just like every other trait. It's good for some units but useless for others. The +2 to armor save while in cover is actually stronger than -1 to hit in lots of situations. BUT

Nids traits are actaully worse for no reason in a lot of cases though so you might be right. For example. My ulthwe get 6+FNP on every unit straight up. Leviathan gets 6+ FNP if they are withing 6 inches of a synapse creature...uhhh...why the discrepancy?

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.

I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.

Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.

It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.

That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?

Probably about the same number.
Tyranids have 12 without FW, i guess that Eldar have about the same.

No, Eldar have a LOT more than 12 units with FLY.
It's over 20 I think

-

I count 17 including the named HQs, but yes they are more.

 Galef wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.

I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.

Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.

It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.

That's nice and all, but how many Fly units do Tyranids have compared to Eldar units with Fly?

Probably about the same number.
Tyranids have 12 without FW, i guess that Eldar have about the same.

No, Eldar have a LOT more than 12 units with FLY.
It's closer to 24 units

-

And that's the answer I wanted them to actually answer. However since that number is now actually presented, how does it feel to have a Chapter Tactic that doesn't work with several units?

CWE, off the top of my head?
-Windriders
-Shining Spears
-Vypers
-Hornets
-Serpents
-Falcons
-Fire Prisms
-Night Spinners
-Hemlocks
-Crimson Hunters
-Seer Councils
-Swooping Hawks
-Warp Spiders
-Baharoth
-Autarch on Bike
-Farseer on Bike

You could even claim, but shouldn't
-Crimson Hunter Exarch
-Autarch w/Wings
-Autarch w/Warp Generator
-Solo Warlock on Bike

And that's without superheavies/ForgeWorld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"However since that number is now actually presented, how does it feel to have a Chapter Tactic that doesn't work with several units?"
We'll have to wait until last year when our codex came out to answer that.

Uthwe doesn't do anything for several units, but that's nothing compared to Iyanden doing nothing for most units, Saim-Hann doing nothing for almost all units, and Biel-Tan doing nothing for any of the units they're known for beyond Dire Avengers.

So CWE already know how that feels.

^Isn't the Hornet FW?

Oops. Any other mistakes (missing or inappropriately included)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I count about the same number of CWE units that *don't* have Fly.

I don't think it will matter, in the end. Jormungandr tactics are representing tyranids burrowing for cover and using tunnels, which is why it doesn't work on FLY. Jorm also keeps that bonus within 12".

For the Eldar trait, which is using some sort of fancy-camoflage iirc, it ought to work on FLY, and a nice way to balance it was if it didn't work within 12". Imo that'd be fine.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't think it will matter, in the end. Jormungandr tactics are representing tyranids burrowing for cover and using tunnels, which is why it doesn't work on FLY. Jorm also keeps that bonus within 12".

For the Eldar trait, which is using some sort of fancy-camoflage iirc, it ought to work on FLY, and a nice way to balance it was if it didn't work within 12". Imo that'd be fine.

This ^

I'd accept that if Hemlock Wraithfighters went up in points by about 50.

Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

Bharring wrote:
Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

I'm saying Hemlocks are ridiculous with -1 to hit, and are still ridiculous with +1 armor.

Orks would answer your question with "absolutely."

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That is correct.

However if they follow Jormungandr, it will not apply to models with FLY keyword. So, no 2+ Hemlocks. Would be my guess.

This would make Alaitoc worthless as jet bikes, grav tanks, etc all have fly. If that happens, Everyone will play Ulthwe for the free 6+++

Iron Hands have the 6+++ and I know from experience it doesn't feel like it does much.

I bet it would feel stronger if it worked on tanks. It certainly is super helpful on Primaris let along Wraithblades with a 4++ and 3 wounds.

Yeah on 1 or 2 wound models you might get another wound out of them 1 in 6 dead or 1 in 3 dead models at best which drops off if your being shot with D2+ or D3+ weapons, but on a vehical with multiple wounds it finally actually impacts the game.

For IH it works on Dreadnaughts (including the 13-wound Redemptor) and 3-wound Centurions, and even there it seldom feels like it accomplishes anything.

Bharring wrote:
Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

Honestly I was FINE with anyone having the -1 To Hit army traits. It's just the gunline people that really complain about it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

Honestly I was FINE with anyone having the -1 To Hit army traits. It's just the gunline people that really complain about it.

Says the Raven Guard player.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

Honestly I was FINE with anyone having the -1 To Hit army traits. It's just the gunline people that really complain about it.

Says the Raven Guard player.

Actually Deathwatch, as they can function a little bit. Raven Guard was mostly for the characters (Shrike, Lias, and then a generic dude with the relic Jump Pack). Otherwise I would be Imperial Fists all the way in terms of abilities but their characters and stuff suck.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are you saying you prefer -1-to-hit Hemlocks to +1-armor Hemlocks?

I'm saying Hemlocks are ridiculous with -1 to hit, and are still ridiculous with +1 armor.

Orks would answer your question with "absolutely."

FYI, Hemlocks only get a combined -2 to be hit if their opponent goes first. After that, they'll have moved forward to be in range of their 16" guns. It takes nothing to then move within 12" of them and outright ignore their Alaitoc trait.
Even moving up the flanks doesn't guarantee everything that can shoot them wouldn't be able to ignore this. Just deploy tightly and play aggressively and Hemlocks die pretty quick. I lose both of mine in almost every game.

If Alaitoc becomes additional cover if in cover, then Hemlocks will stop being Alaitoc altogether (and there isn't any other trait for them as literally every other trait does NOTHING for them)

-

Well, they'll get more use out of..
Uthwe for extra durability! It's like Soulstones for free! The only downside is you still have to pay for them! Maybe not.

Biel Tan for extra dakka! Err, how many Shuriken Weapons does it use? Maybe not that either.

Saim-Hann! I wanna go FAST! Because reroll Charge is great on them! We just need to make them Jetbikes first... Maybe not that either.

Aren't the only CTs Hemlocks can benefit from Iyanden (which is terribad for almost everything else) and Alaitoc (which is OP obviously)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit - ninjad by an edit.

 Galef wrote:

leopard wrote:
could see flamers going to 2d6, and burna to 1d6 to counter hordes, however would also suggest the following:

- flamer can inflict no more that two hits on any single model in a unit, excess hits are lost (to stop them being character assassination tools, also stops them being the anti flier weapons they are), this to apply to all flamers fired by a unit as a group - so five flamers generate 10d6 hits, but no more than two per model.
- flamers halve the number of hits (rounding up) in overwatch to represent the lack of time to prepare (basically so hordes can still actually charge a unit with flamers without it being outright suicide)

Hordes can already charge units with flamers and outright ignore the flamers. They just need to start their charge 8.1" away

-

yup you can, however the game has 'overwatch' as less effective than usual weapons fire so it seems to make sense not to mask it here.

my point is really one that you need to consider a unit with one flamer as one thing, a unit with several as something else.

in effect one flamer in overwatch would function exactly as it does now, they just get double the potential hits and a lot more predictability when the operator has time to prepare and use them properly.

but when you are charged by say ten orks, and you have five flamers there is only so much "on fire" you can make an ork, went for two hits per model because one is basically rubbish (given the roll to wound), so two gives a decent chance to get at least one wound on each model.

I highly doubt this is going to change anyway, but it seemed to work to what thought I put into it

Bharring wrote:
Well, they'll get more use out of..
Uthwe for extra durability! It's like Soulstones for free! The only downside is you still have to pay for them! Maybe not.

Biel Tan for extra dakka! Err, how many Shuriken Weapons does it use? Maybe not that either.

Saim-Hann! I wanna go FAST! Because reroll Charge is great on them! We just need to make them Jetbikes first... Maybe not that either.

Aren't the only CTs Hemlocks can benefit from Iyanden (which is terribad for almost everything else) and Alaitoc (which is OP obviously)?

Right, and Iyanden really doesn't do anything for them either since they don't care about degrading BS or Attacks and degrading Movement isn't a big deal when you can still move 20-25" in the lowest bracket.
So I take back my original comment. Hemlocks will continue to be Alaitoc if it changes to just a cover bonus. But they won't get to ever use it, just like all the other traits.

-

Bharring wrote:
Well, they'll get more use out of..
Uthwe for extra durability! It's like Soulstones for free! The only downside is you still have to pay for them! Maybe not.

Biel Tan for extra dakka! Err, how many Shuriken Weapons does it use? Maybe not that either.

Saim-Hann! I wanna go FAST! Because reroll Charge is great on them! We just need to make them Jetbikes first... Maybe not that either.

Aren't the only CTs Hemlocks can benefit from Iyanden (which is terribad for almost everything else) and Alaitoc (which is OP obviously)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit - ninjad by an edit.

Well to be honest I would argue how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else. It'll only happen once in the game but still.

That said, I'm angry for Eldar players over how bad Biel Tan is. Like, it's super ridiculous how bad it is.

 Marmatag wrote:
Tzaangors going up makes me happy. Pretty stupid how well they pair with the dark matter crystal.

I would have rather they reduced Tzaangors to 6 points and made the blades cost 2 points. Chain-gors suck pretty bad and are absolutely not worth the same cost as the far superior blade-gors. Maybe just keeping the base Tzaangor at 7 and making the blades cost 1 would have been fine, I dunno.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is how the JORMUNGANDR faction trait works. It doesn't work on units with FLY and it doesn't work if you advance or charge.

I would expect Alaitoc to work the same way.

Alaitoc is blatantly overpowered in its current form, and a permanent +1 to save regardless of role is also overpowered.

It makes literally no sense that a FLYER zipping around the board receives the benefit of cover and there is already a precedent.

There's also the Dal'yth sept trait, that can work on FLY units. So that precedent doesn't mean much.

"Well to be honest I would argue how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else. It'll only happen once in the game but still."

1) You know Hemlocks aren't Jetbikes, right?
2) You realize that's not what Sam Hain does, right?
3) How often have you seen Hemlocks - or other Flyers (not models with Fly) - actually Charge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"That said, I'm angry for Eldar players over how bad Biel Tan is. Like, it's super ridiculous how bad it is."
Well, it's not terrible if you want to do a fluffy Guardian Warhost, like with tons of Guardians. As in, what Uthwe is known for. Also as in, what Biel Tan is known to *not* do.