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Your discussion of what eldar clans do what is so amusing while I have games against six marine capts.

Martel732 wrote:
Your discussion of what eldar clans do what is so amusing while I have games against six marine capts.

Maybe you keep stumbling across some sort of inter-company team building exercise?

Bharring wrote:
"Well to be honest I would argue how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else. It'll only happen once in the game but still."

1) You know Hemlocks aren't Jetbikes, right?
2) You realize that's not what Sam Hain does, right?
3) How often have you seen Hemlocks - or other Flyers (not models with Fly) - actually Charge?


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"That said, I'm angry for Eldar players over how bad Biel Tan is. Like, it's super ridiculous how bad it is."
Well, it's not terrible if you want to do a fluffy Guardian Warhost, like with tons of Guardians. As in, what Uthwe is known for. Also as in, what Biel Tan is known to *not* do.

Sam Hainn rerolls charges, yes? So you shoot one target and then tie up another.

When talking about "how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else", it gets kinda silly to be talking about Reroll Charges on a Flyer that moves 60". If you can't get a short enough charge range with 60" of movement, you're doing something very wrong.

On the upside, Sam Hainn ignore the movement penalty on heavy weapons - which would really help if the Hemlock's heavy weapons weren't autohit. Although that's Jetbike-only, so still.

It's like saying a Rhino benefits from IH tactics because it blowing up is less likely to kill it's friends.

I feel it's important to note the actual rule for Saim-Hann. Yes it gives reroll charges for all units, but it only ignores the heavy weapon penalty on JETBIKES.
There is only 1 unit in the entire Eldar army that can take advantage of BOTH those bonuses, and it's a Index only choice.

Spears might like the re-roll charge, but they have no heavy weapons. Windriders and Vypers can take heavies, but should never be close enough to charge, reroll or not.
Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance and Reaper Launcher is the only Saim-Hann unit that wants both bonuses. And as I've mentioned, that's only available via Index (to get the Reaper launcher)

It's sad really, though not as sad as the UM Primarch not benefiting from his own Chapter's Tactic.

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Bharring wrote:
When talking about "how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else", it gets kinda silly to be talking about Reroll Charges on a Flyer that moves 60". If you can't get a short enough charge range with 60" of movement, you're doing something very wrong.

On the upside, Sam Hainn ignore the movement penalty on heavy weapons - which would really help if the Hemlock's heavy weapons weren't autohit. Although that's Jetbike-only, so still.

It's like saying a Rhino benefits from IH tactics because it blowing up is less likely to kill it's friends.

You might want to charge a unit that's not 2" away from you.

I'm just saying I feel it's the second best Craftworld for the Hemlock for that reason. Nothing else is really any good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When talking about "how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else", it gets kinda silly to be talking about Reroll Charges on a Flyer that moves 60". If you can't get a short enough charge range with 60" of movement, you're doing something very wrong.

On the upside, Sam Hainn ignore the movement penalty on heavy weapons - which would really help if the Hemlock's heavy weapons weren't autohit. Although that's Jetbike-only, so still.

It's like saying a Rhino benefits from IH tactics because it blowing up is less likely to kill it's friends.

You might want to charge a unit that's not 2" away from you.

I'm just saying I feel it's the second best Craftworld for the Hemlock for that reason. Nothing else is really any good.

Hemlock's have a little rule called "Airborne" which states they cannot charge. This trait does absolutely nothing for them.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When talking about "how great Sam Hainn is when you have Fly so you shoot, charge, and then fall back and shoot something else", it gets kinda silly to be talking about Reroll Charges on a Flyer that moves 60". If you can't get a short enough charge range with 60" of movement, you're doing something very wrong.

On the upside, Sam Hainn ignore the movement penalty on heavy weapons - which would really help if the Hemlock's heavy weapons weren't autohit. Although that's Jetbike-only, so still.

It's like saying a Rhino benefits from IH tactics because it blowing up is less likely to kill it's friends.

You might want to charge a unit that's not 2" away from you.

I'm just saying I feel it's the second best Craftworld for the Hemlock for that reason. Nothing else is really any good.

Hemlock's have a little rule called "Airborne" which states they cannot charge. This trait does absolutely nothing for them.

Oh word?

Yeah everything else sucks then.

I find this conversation humorous.

"We have to make a decision fething WAHH" -Eldar players

"Alaitoc MUST remain overpowered, so we don't have to make decisions WAHHH INTENSIFIES" -Eldar players

So when Alaitoc becomes a cover bonus (that likely requires the unit to actually have cover already), we all agree that the Hemlock gets zero possible bonus from any of the 5 CW traits?
That's enough of a nerf for it. No point bump needed. Move along

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My BA vehicles don't have a lot of sympathy.

 Galef wrote:
So when Alaitoc becomes a cover bonus (that likely requires the unit to actually have cover already), we all agree that the Hemlock gets zero possible bonus from any of the 5 CW traits?
That's enough of a nerf for it. No point bump needed. Move along

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Iyanden does keep its movement from degrading as quickly, but that it likely very situational.

 Galef wrote:
So when Alaitoc becomes a cover bonus (that likely requires the unit to actually have cover already), we all agree that the Hemlock gets zero possible bonus from any of the 5 CW traits?
That's enough of a nerf for it. No point bump needed. Move along

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It is still too cheap. It is a psyker as well as a vehicle. It should pay more for being able to cast Jinx, and full smite. And it would benefit from the 6+++.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So when Alaitoc becomes a cover bonus (that likely requires the unit to actually have cover already), we all agree that the Hemlock gets zero possible bonus from any of the 5 CW traits?
That's enough of a nerf for it. No point bump needed. Move along

-

It is still too cheap. It is a psyker as well as a vehicle. It should pay more for being able to cast Jinx, and full smite. And it would benefit from the 6+++.

It already has Spirit Stones which cannot stack with Ulthwe's 6+++. It's over 200pts for something that has to get very close. Trust me, it dies just fine and Jinx fails about 1/3 of the time (it would be about half the time, but CP reroll is a thing, but that also drains an already CP starved army of CPs)
Don't get me wrong, they are one of the best units in the Codex, especially with Alaitoc giving a total -2. My point is that once you remove Alaitoc from it, it's a fairly priced unit.
At most, it would still be fielded at ~225pts. Any more than that and Crimson Hunter Exarchs are a much better buy.

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I have 2 Hemlocks that are Iyanden, because that's what my army is. I don't care if it doesn't benefit from the trait, not every unit will do so. Changing Alaitoc to open up the decision making process is a very good thing. Eldar have some of the worst warlord traits and relics, but some of the best units in the game. I wish this scale was a little more balanced (tone down some of the really offending units, add some better relics/traits), but that's not happening anytime soon (unless the new formation warlord traits are impressive....I will automatically take the wraith host one because god knows I don't need another deny which is the Iyanden trait). C'est la vie.

`
find this conversation humorous.

"We have to make a decision fething WAHH" -Eldar players

"Alaitoc MUST remain overpowered, so we don't have to make decisions WAHHH INTENSIFIES" -Eldar players
`

More like:
"CWE traits should have nothing to do with CWE" - non-Eldar players

You're basically saying:
"Alaitoc should only impact a minority of CWE options at all, and of those units, only if they don't play move."
Because apparently it's hard to make something hard to hit when it's moving too fast or something.

And the 'choices' we're complaining about:
-Choosing between Reroll Charges, a 6+++, reroll 1s for Shuriken weapons, or gain Cover if you don't have fly, on a model that cannot charge, already must pay for a 6+++, has no Shuriken weapons, and is a flyer.
-Choosing between staying still to get a cover bonus or move, on a platform that must move if able, and gets RFP if it doesn't.
-Choosing whether half our units move or get CT, while the other half don't get it at all

There's also
-Choosing Uthwe's trait if you want to play stereotypical Iyanden, or Biel-Tan's trait if you want to play stereotypical Uthwe
But that one is GW's fault, not yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: I do hope they change Alaitoc's trait. But a rule like this:
"Alaitoc models always count as being in cover when shot at from outside 12" unless they're Flyers, have the Fly special move, or have moved at all"
Is dumb. It'd be like an IG trait that said "Reroll all Boltgun shots of 1" - not technically worthless, but clearly not designed for that army.

It's unfair that my Hive Fleet Behemoth only benefits some of the units in my codex. Its literally no benefit to my Hive Guard, cuz reroll charges is terrible.

Its unfair that my Iron Hands Chapter Tactic only benefits some of my units. Its literally no benefit to my Rhinos and Land Raiders.

Its unfair that my Vior'la Sept trait only benefits some of the units in my codex. It's useless on my Broadsides and other heavy weapons platforms.

Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

Talinsin wrote:
It's unfair that my Hive Fleet Behemoth only benefits some of the units in my codex. Its literally no benefit to my Hive Guard, cuz reroll charges is terrible.

Its unfair that my Iron Hands Chapter Tactic only benefits some of my units. Its literally no benefit to my Rhinos and Land Raiders.

Its unfair that my Vior'la Sept trait only benefits some of the units in my codex. It's useless on my Broadsides and other heavy weapons platforms.

Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

Well then, we can extrapolate this argument to every other instance of faction X having ability Y. Or you could just play CWE and live that "fair" dream

Talinsin wrote:
Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

I think the problem is that codex creep (and the -1 to hit outside 12" was the start of it all imo) has meant those situational abilities are usually meh.
Instead you want an overpowered (er - better than the rest) trait to build an entire army (sorry, detachment) around.

Crying about Hemlocks not having a useful trait is top tier codex problems.

Talinsin wrote:
It's unfair that my Hive Fleet Behemoth only benefits some of the units in my codex. Its literally no benefit to my Hive Guard, cuz reroll charges is terrible.

Its unfair that my Iron Hands Chapter Tactic only benefits some of my units. Its literally no benefit to my Rhinos and Land Raiders.

Its unfair that my Vior'la Sept trait only benefits some of the units in my codex. It's useless on my Broadsides and other heavy weapons platforms.

Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

Iron Hands also don't benefit their Ven Dreads!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Talinsin wrote:
Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

I think the problem is that codex creep (and the -1 to hit outside 12" was the start of it all imo) has meant those situational abilities are usually meh.
Instead you want an overpowered (er - better than the rest) trait to build an entire army (sorry, detachment) around.

Crying about Hemlocks not having a useful trait is top tier codex problems.

It would be silly to have the Trait not affect anything with Fly though when like almost half the codex is Fly.

Tyel wrote:

Talinsin wrote:
Its unfair that my [insert faction trait here]only benefits some of my units. Its literally useless on [a few units from said codex].

I think the problem is that codex creep (and the -1 to hit outside 12" was the start of it all imo) has meant those situational abilities are usually meh.
Instead you want an overpowered (er - better than the rest) trait to build an entire army (sorry, detachment) around.

Crying about Hemlocks not having a useful trait is top tier codex problems.

Most sane CWE generals are absolutely on board with Alaitoc changing. I think all traits should be viable as opposed to one or two being optimal while the rest are trash.

Right, and if Alaitoc is "always +1 cover" it is still the go-to choice without question, because that is still fantastic, if there are no limitations.

If Jormungandr didn't have limits, you'd see 2+ tyrants flying around the board, and 3++ genestealers running up the table.

 Marmatag wrote:
Right, and if Alaitoc is "always +1 cover" it is still the go-to choice without question, because that is still fantastic, if there are no limitations.

If Jormungandr didn't have limits, you'd see 2+ tyrants flying around the board, and 3++ genestealers running up the table.

But it does have a limitation, one that is likely to stay: It only works outside of 12"
I'd actually like it to change to "an additional +1 to cover if the unit has cover (so +2 total)" rather than "always counts as having cover".
I mean, it would be very powerful if it was both, but if I had to choose, I'd prefer it to be additional cover, not always cover. Additional cover makes more sense, and it requires thought to use.
It also goes well with Prepared Positions and the camo cloak of the Rangers (ya know, the iconic Alaitoc unit)

But my point about the Hemlock is that if Alaitoc doesn't grant "always in cover" (which as above I hope it isn't), but instead just additional cover, you cannot deny that is a straight nerf to the Hemlock.
I'm not debating whether that nerf is justified or not, but just pointing it out

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Could just make it to the Alaitoc + 1 doesn't stack with anything.

Reemule wrote:
Could just make it to the Alaitoc + 1 doesn't stack with anything.

That's not the rumour though. The rumour is that Alaitoc/AL/RG traits will be a cover bonus. But we don't exactly know what that means yet.

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"Crying about Hemlocks not having a useful trait is top tier codex problems."
I think we're talking past eachother.
There's some discussion about how Hemlocks will then have no Faction Trait that impacts them. That's interesting. But it's not really the complaint.

The complaint is the suggestion that Alaitoc's trait be +1 cover save for less than half their options, and then only if they don't move. Because most of the units it *would* affect need to move to function. It'd be like if we rewrote Iron Hands to only affect Servitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or better yet, if Iron Hand's trait required that the model not take an Armor Save that round to take effect.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So when Alaitoc becomes a cover bonus (that likely requires the unit to actually have cover already), we all agree that the Hemlock gets zero possible bonus from any of the 5 CW traits?
That's enough of a nerf for it. No point bump needed. Move along

-

It is still too cheap. It is a psyker as well as a vehicle. It should pay more for being able to cast Jinx, and full smite. And it would benefit from the 6+++.

It has to take spirit stones anyways. Not free anymore :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"Crying about Hemlocks not having a useful trait is top tier codex problems."
I think we're talking past eachother.
There's some discussion about how Hemlocks will then have no Faction Trait that impacts them. That's interesting. But it's not really the complaint.

The complaint is the suggestion that Alaitoc's trait be +1 cover save for less than half their options, and then only if they don't move. Because most of the units it *would* affect need to move to function. It'd be like if we rewrote Iron Hands to only affect Servitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or better yet, if Iron Hand's trait required that the model not take an Armor Save that round to take effect.

This makes the crimson hunter exarch more auto include.

How would it? If it only affects models that don't have fly, the CH isn't any better than it is now.

I just like to point out in playing thousand sons, so considering MOST of my army don't get the faction ability, eldar crying not every single unit would be benefiting from craft world sound real lame.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I just like to point out in playing thousand sons, so considering MOST of my army don't get the faction ability, eldar crying not every single unit would be benefiting from craft world sound real lame.

Cool, your army is built around that faction ability, which lets be honest, is really good. TS has the best smites in the game.