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Eldarsif wrote: I do find it a bit amusing that Ork players are angry at something others of us have had to do beforehand over the years. Space Marines and Necrons to 32mm and Terminators to 40mm, Bikers to the new ovals, and so on. It's going to continue until GW is happy with how it looks or whatever reasoning they have for this(I personally just think the larger bases look better).
Regarding a game being gak if it cares about base size then you haven't played many miniature games. Warmahordes has very strict base rules, X-Wing has very strict base rules(with a base scale creep happening between 1.0 and 2.0). Bases are the best unit of measurement of the abstract game that is tabletop wargaming.
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Which brings me to my own personal gripe regarding the base change. I can deal with as it is a part of the game as it progresses. Wouldn't be the first game or the last. Games change and the rules evolve. What annoys me about the entire thing is that GW hasn't sold their own conversion kits making everyone rely on Third Party suppliers.
Regarding power of Orks between 25mm and 32mm my guess is we'll see when the Ork codex comes out. Then the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
It does seem a little odd that they haven't released their own. Seems like an easy sell to that demographic, and doesn't take much design time at all.
BaconCatBug, you are using a tautology. You must know that is poor argument. GW have changed the base size for some reason, there could be several different reasons. We can only speculate as to why. It might be that they wanted to make bigger minis because they think they will look better, and perhaps they just think 32mm looks better on it's own. Perhaps they want to be different to the majority of skirmish games on the market that use 25mm. Who knows?
You say it does not affect you in the slightest but you also say that opponents may disagree with you playing with 32mm bases even in casual games. So it does have an impact on the game for people. Gradually the older bases will not be accepted, and that is a bummer for people who have hundreds of miniatures based on the old bases.
As to tournament play, well, for some people that is a major part of when they get to play. It is a bummer that those people now have to rebase their entire army, which is quite difficult when you have polycemented your boyz to their bases or made custom bases. It is not unreasonable to complain about that or be upset by it.
I think it is fine for them to make whatever choices they want to about the base size for the miniatures, but it would be considerate of them to make sure it did not impact players who have smaller base sizes by thinking about it in the rules.
Regarding a game being gak if it cares about base size then you haven't played many miniature games. Warmahordes has very strict base rules, X-Wing has very strict base rules(with a base scale creep happening between 1.0 and 2.0). Bases are the best unit of measurement of the abstract game that is tabletop wargaming.
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I very much agree with you here. But I those other games are consistent with base sizes. I understand that GW has been around longer than them and has made changes like this in the past. But those changes tended to be isolated to single units in single armies. It wasn't such a big deal, then. The difference now is that entire ranges are suddenly having their bases changed, and this has a much bigger impact on gameplay. So it would make sense to me that if they are making this change (which to me seems pretty gratuitous, and I would love to hear a GW designer give a rationale for it) it would also make sense to rethink the rules so that base size does not matter to avoid causing problems for people. It is just being considerate. Saga for example allows you to use whatever base size you want and is a very well balanced and enjoyable game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 10:16:24
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Another method is to cut the rim of the 25mm base off, glue the mini to a 32mm base and then add some extra basing material to blend the old base into the new one. It's pretty much how I rebased my WHFB daemons onto round bases, way faster than cutting the mini off its original base and you're far less likely to accidentally cut a foot off!
I very much agree with you here. But I those other games are consistent with base sizes. I understand that GW has been around longer than them and has made changes like this in the past. But those changes tended to be isolated to single units in single armies. It wasn't such a big deal, then.
X-Wing did scale changes so they are not consistent. They tested out certain base sizes and realized that it made some ships unbalanced. I would also like to point out that technically GW has already done the biggest base change of them all and that is the change from Fantasy to AoS which was anything but fun. However, the AoS game I am playing now is super fun and I love the round bases on some of my larger units.
I also think their(GW) approach to bases and overall methodology is changing. They've already released a size-guide for AoS and I do believe a size guide for 40k is an eventuality. The biggest question is whether they will keep that scale moving on or if it is at whim. They should also be providing solutions instead of just telling everyone that bases have changed and now you must deal with it in whatever way you can. At least X-Wing Conversion pack gave me a few new bases for the ships that had their base size changed.
On the plus side I do think that as long as they do an additive sizing(ie. bases scale up, not down) then there are very often workarounds either way. I do however agree that it would be nice to hear some rationalizing behind the changes although my guess is that their answer will most likely just be "Rule of Cool".
Eldarsif wrote: I do find it a bit interesting that Ork players are angry at something others of us have had to do beforehand over the years. Space Marines and Necrons to 32mm and Terminators to 40mm, Bikers to the new ovals, and so on. It's going to continue until GW is happy with how it looks or whatever reasoning they have for this(I personally just think the larger bases look better).
Regarding a game being gak if it cares about base size then you haven't played many miniature games. Warmahordes has very strict base rules, X-Wing has very strict base rules(with a base scale creep happening between 1.0 and 2.0). Bases are the best unit of measurement of the abstract game that is tabletop wargaming.
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Which brings me to my own personal gripe regarding the base change. I can deal with as it is a part of the game as it progresses. Wouldn't be the first game or the last. Games change and the rules evolve. What annoys me about the entire thing is that GW hasn't sold their own conversion kits making everyone rely on Third Party suppliers.
Regarding power of Orks between 25mm and 32mm my guess is we'll see when the Ork codex comes out. Then the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
For me, the 40K changes and the AOS changes are the same thing. I am not going to use the 32mm bases for any of that stuff, because I dislike the extended footprint and prefer to be able to be consistent within my collection. So I actually buy 25mm bases for any GW stuff I buy and base them on that. I do not play AoS or 40K any more as a result, but I sometimes buy GW minis to use in other systems.
Eldarsif wrote: I do find it a bit interesting that Ork players are angry at something others of us have had to do beforehand over the years. Space Marines and Necrons to 32mm and Terminators to 40mm, Bikers to the new ovals, and so on. It's going to continue until GW is happy with how it looks or whatever reasoning they have for this(I personally just think the larger bases look better).
Funny you mention that. Guess what bases my marines are? The 25mm bases they have always been with. Like hell I rebase them. Big middle finger to anybody who insist me to rebase them.
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Neither option solving the key problem for me. HUNDREDS of euro's that needs to be spent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 12:58:26
tneva82 wrote: Neither option solving the key problem for me. HUNDREDS of euro's that needs to be spent.
You can get a hundred 32mm bases for 35 euro on the GW site, you can get them cheaper on bits sites and even cheaper again if you opt for plain black resin bases off eBay. Have you got more than 300 Orks that would need rebasing or would you be looking to put them on scenic resin/plastic bases?
tneva82 wrote: Neither option solving the key problem for me. HUNDREDS of euro's that needs to be spent.
You can get a hundred 32mm bases for 35 euro on the GW site, you can get them cheaper on bits sites and even cheaper again if you opt for plain black resin bases off eBay. Have you got more than 300 Orks that would need rebasing or would you be looking to put them on scenic resin/plastic bases?
a) I do have hundreds of orks actually. Total model count for my orks is ATM 520 and this doesn't include pile of orks in box and unassembled boxes
b) it's not just bases but movement trays(enough to cover all the models and some spare to differentiate different clans and unit size combinations) to ensure games end up within the ~2.5h I have to play. Those would go to garbage bin because funny that 32mm bases don't fit 25mm base movement trays.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 13:11:59
I have never and will never rebase my models. The GW rule is use whatever base your model came with.
Thats what I'll stick with.
I didn't rebase my terminators when they went from 25s to 32s.
I didn't rebase my AOS armies.
I certainly won't rebase anything in the future because I put a lot of time into my models and bases and I have no interest in having to arbitrarily destroy my work every few years because GW decides to add a few more mm to the base and tournament players get bent out of shape because that 7mm difference is suddenly game busting to them.
Eldarsif wrote: I do find it a bit interesting that Ork players are angry at something others of us have had to do beforehand over the years. Space Marines and Necrons to 32mm and Terminators to 40mm, Bikers to the new ovals, and so on. It's going to continue until GW is happy with how it looks or whatever reasoning they have for this(I personally just think the larger bases look better).
Funny you mention that. Guess what bases my marines are? The 25mm bases they have always been with. Like hell I rebase them. Big middle finger to anybody who insist me to rebase them.
Now, does it suck if you have everything based and spent a lot of time it? Definitely, not going to argue that. There are, however, solutions. I personally just glue the old existing base on top of another larger base and create a little terrain/basing out of the thing(steps, skulls, whatever). It does increase the height of the model a bit, but for old Terminators it just puts them in line with the new ones. The second option is to buy those converters some outlets are selling.
Neither option solving the key problem for me. HUNDREDS of euro's that needs to be spent.
Although I do feel you are exaggerating about bases(I am almost pooping bases because I have so many of them and I paid very little for all of them) I get your point. To be fair the movement trays are a different problem and I do empathize. I myself haven't rebased nearly everything I have as I don't see a need until I am actually playing the army in a more competitive environment(which I have used more my Aeldari for). Again, for the sake of transparency this mostly applies to my Dark Angels as I have tried to keep the Necrons correctly based and the Ork change is recent.
Regarding playing I do believe it is still within the ruleset that players agree beforehand before playing whether something is okay or not. You might, however, have some issues if you attend tourneys, but if they are not your thing I think you can be perfectly fine with not rebasing anything. Nobody is forcing you to rebase anything and that is good for everyone to keep in mind. Only time you "might" be forced to change bases is either because of FLGS peer pressure or you are a tourney goer. If you have awesome peers in your group/FLGS and don't attend tourneys then this base sizing will very likely not affect you in any way.
Those would go to garbage bin because funny that 32mm bases don't fit 25mm base movement trays.
You could very well sell those trays to Tyranid or any AoS player who is using smaller bases. If you were to go down the path of rebasing - not saying you should btw - then you could at least recuperate the costs of the movement trays as they have, if anything, become a little more popular.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 13:33:17
If your not playing competitively then sure it probably isn't going to be a huge decider on who wins a given game.
But if you want to play competative you suck it up and change.
Simply put you might think its unfair that you have to rebase models.
I think it's unfair that people with old models should have inherent advantage over new players.
Also as has been said by multiple posters you can just get clip on extender rings if rebasing is so objectionable.
auticus wrote: I have never and will never rebase my models. The GW rule is use whatever base your model came with.
Thats what I'll stick with.
I didn't rebase my terminators when they went from 25s to 32s.
I didn't rebase my AOS armies.
I certainly won't rebase anything in the future because I put a lot of time into my models and bases and I have no interest in having to arbitrarily destroy my work every few years because GW decides to add a few more mm to the base and tournament players get bent out of shape because that 7mm difference is suddenly game busting to them.
Then you don't get to complain when someone refuses to play you, or tournaments refuse you entry.
In 20 years (this past summer) that has never happened (being refused a game or entry into an event of any kind). So I'm really not sweating it. All of our local events have always been to use whatever base was supplied with the model. For the past two decades.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 13:52:23
For those who are genuinely offended by the 32mm bases: no one here is telling you that you need to rebase your models. All we're saying is that 32mm is the new standard, and YMMV depending on the types of games you will/may be attending in the future.
It's not wrong to say "to hell with new standards!", but it doesn't make the fact false.
auticus wrote: In 20 years (this past summer) that has never happened (being refused a game or entry into an event of any kind). So I'm really not sweating it. All of our local events have always been to use whatever base was supplied with the model. For the past two decades.
Yeah, I feel like 99.9999% of players and events have zero issues with models being on some variant of base that they either are currently or have been previously supplied with.
Few exceptions apply, however, but those are always because the current model is vastly bigger and has thus been supplied with a larger base since. 2 Examples would be Termies and Daemon Princes. When both were metal, they were supplied with 25mm or 40mm respectively. But plastic Termies have had 40mms for over a decade now and the plastic DP comes with a 60mm.
So while most players would accept the metal versions on the smaller bases, the exact same models (from a rules perspective) in their plastic version have never been supplied with the smaller base and thus you might get the stink-eye if you rolled up with a few plastic DPs on 40mms or plastic Termies on 25mm. It's really weird that the same models (again from a rules perspective) can have different standards/expectations put on them, but that seems to be the way it is.
For Orks (to get a bit more on topic) if GW re-releases Ork Boyz with 32mm bases, then Ork players (new or old) will have the choice between either 25mm or 32mm. Both are not only legal, but should be acceptable no matter what your personal opinion is about them
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 14:05:03
auticus wrote: In 20 years (this past summer) that has never happened (being refused a game or entry into an event of any kind). So I'm really not sweating it. All of our local events have always been to use whatever base was supplied with the model. For the past two decades.
Yeah, I feel like 99.9999% of players and events have zero issues with models being on some variant of base that they either are currently or have been previously supplied with.
Few exceptions apply, however, but those are always because the current model is vastly bigger and has thus been supplied with a larger base since.
2 Examples would be Termies and Daemon Princes. When both were metal, they were supplied with 25mm or 40mm respectively.
But plastic Termies have had 40mms for over a decade now and the plastic DP comes with a 60mm.
So while most players would accept the metal versions on the smaller bases, the exact same models (from a rules perspective) in their plastic version have never been supplied with the smaller base and thus you might get the stink-eye if you rolled up with a few plastic DPs on 40mms or plastic Termies on 25mm.
It's really weird that the same models (again from a rules perspective) can have different standards/expectations put on them, but that seems to be the way it is.
For Orks (to get a bit more on topic) if GW re-releases Ork Boyz with 32mm bases, then Ork players (new or old) will have the choice between either 25mm or 32mm. Both are not only legal, but should be acceptable no matter what your personal opinion is about them
I am at a point in my life where I pretty much only play at organised events. I am not going to go through the hassle and awkwardness of showing up only to be told that my army is not allowed, or even dealing with people complaining that I am modelling for advantage.
You are of course right when you say it is the new standard, but I will just not play the game in that case. No biggy. But I am certainly allowed to voice my opinion about it.
Gitdakka wrote: Are you guys aware that 32mm bases can fight in 4 ranks? They just have to be in a slightly staggered pattern (6mm apart). I did some geometry, and on a frontage of 100mm exactly 16 25mm bases can fit, while with 32mm bases about 10,5 fit. Sure there is a difference, but it's not like less ranks can fight. I attached a picture to illustrate
Also where are you guys planning on buying 32mm bases? I cant find any deal from gw, so alternatives? [img]
Yes, 4 ranks can fight in this pattern. But look at that anemic front row! Instead of 10 wide, you have 6?
auticus wrote: In 20 years (this past summer) that has never happened (being refused a game or entry into an event of any kind). So I'm really not sweating it. All of our local events have always been to use whatever base was supplied with the model. For the past two decades.
Yeah, I feel like 99.9999% of players and events have zero issues with models being on some variant of base that they either are currently or have been previously supplied with.
Few exceptions apply, however, but those are always because the current model is vastly bigger and has thus been supplied with a larger base since.
2 Examples would be Termies and Daemon Princes. When both were metal, they were supplied with 25mm or 40mm respectively.
But plastic Termies have had 40mms for over a decade now and the plastic DP comes with a 60mm.
So while most players would accept the metal versions on the smaller bases, the exact same models (from a rules perspective) in their plastic version have never been supplied with the smaller base and thus you might get the stink-eye if you rolled up with a few plastic DPs on 40mms or plastic Termies on 25mm.
It's really weird that the same models (again from a rules perspective) can have different standards/expectations put on them, but that seems to be the way it is.
For Orks (to get a bit more on topic) if GW re-releases Ork Boyz with 32mm bases, then Ork players (new or old) will have the choice between either 25mm or 32mm. Both are not only legal, but should be acceptable no matter what your personal opinion is about them
Then like I said, Ork players now have the choice of which base they want to use. BOTH are perfectly legal, and more importantly, perfectly acceptable by all reasonable players.
They aren't both "legal", you use the base they come with. You can't buy Boyz now and put them on 25mm bases. Of course it's impossible to "prove" either way.
Da Boss wrote: 5 pages because of having to potentially rebase hundreds of miniatures, damaging them in the process.
Luckily for you, no one forced you to read the thread.
Yes because that's exactly what happened before.
Terminators on 25mm were rebased to 40mm. You had no choice in the matter. You had to do it.
Everyone with marines on 25mm has had to rebase to 32mm. With no choice in the matter.
All fantasy stuff has been rebased to circles. With no choice given.
Thousands of miniatures have been destroyed!!!
Oh wait...no hang on...that's all bs.
Today's players really are safe space hugging snowflakes XD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 16:25:19
Bingo. And I don't see that rule that you use the base they come with anymore, and GW keeps changing FAQs, it is actually written somewhere? I searched the Battle Primer and most recent FAQ, but couldn't find anything remotely suggesting base size
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 16:35:28
Da Boss wrote: 5 pages because of having to potentially rebase hundreds of miniatures, damaging them in the process.
Luckily for you, no one forced you to read the thread.
Yes because that's exactly what happened before.
Terminators on 25mm were rebased to 40mm. You had no choice in the matter. You had to do it.
Everyone with marines on 25mm has had to rebase to 32mm. With no choice in the matter.
All fantasy stuff has been rebased to circles. With no choice given.
Thousands of miniatures have been destroyed!!!
Oh wait...no hang on...that's all bs.
Today's players really are safe space hugging snowflakes XD
Mate, I have been playing since second edition.
My post also contained the word "potentially". We are just discussing the news, which is the point of the discussion forum. You came in to piss all over everyone so you could feel superior, because you are very tough and strong and don't care about such trivial matters. I mean whatever floats your boat but don't fool yourself.
Bingo. And I don't see that rule that you use the base they come with anymore, and GW keeps changing FAQs, it is actually written somewhere?
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As I've said at least four times now, RaW you can base your models however you want. If you want to put your grots on 60mm bases, that's legal. If you want to put your Knights on 25mm bases, also legal. But we're not talking about legality here because, as I have been informed, most people don't follow the rules. The whole concept of "Use the base they came on" is a social standard, not a rules standard. I personally disagree with both the social and the current rules standard. If I had my way base size would be a statistic on the datasheet (with "No Base" and "Flying Base" as options too) and be strictly enforced in matched play at the very least (with open play being whatever you want because who cares). However, since GW won't let me work for them for free to fix their rules, the rules are what the rules are and I would never dare to inform someone that because I don't like a rule I won't follow it.
From my own anecdotal experiences, people tend to dislike when people use the "wrong" base size, whether that is 25mm Terminators or 25mm Space Marines and (from now on I assume) 25mm Boyz and Nobz. I can only hope that tournaments do start enforcing base sizes (and lets face it anyone who enjoys playing 40k at tournaments is not the kind of person to get upset about needing to rebase their models) and GarageHammer will continue on as it always has, regardless of RaW, FAQs or Unwritten Constitutions.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/01 16:41:46
If the tournament standard for Ork bases is 32mm, that would be really frustrating for a lot of Ork players, but probably better for the health of the game.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I am at a bit of a loss as to why nerfing orks is good for the health of the game, and also disagree that "the sort of player that plays at tournaments" would not mind rebasing all their miniatures. I think I have 220 or so 25mm based boyz in my most commonly used list. Damn right I would be butthurt about having to rebase it, especially since it is against the rules.
Not rebasing here, if GW want ork boys on 32mm they need to update the models so you have ork boy models that have only ever been on 32mm, they could make decent 'ard boyz etc
current models are staying on 25mm so they match the rest of them
if an event locally that I'm interested in says "no" I either use another army or don't attend, meh
