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I've been doing a lot of thinking about Chapter Approved #2 lately or even a Marines Codex 2.0 and I think I think I have come to a few conclusions to help bring the Marines up to snuff with newer books.

1: Chapter Tactics will apply to every unit with the "chapter" keyword.

Every other "Chapter Tactic" equivalent works for every unit in the book why not Space Marines?

2: All "chapter" Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts reduce the AP of incoming attacks by 1. (IE: A Plasma Gun will only be AP -2 instead of AP -3.)

It's too easy to kill a Marine and Knight Armagiers have made Dreadnoughts obsolete. By reducing incoming AP by 1 I feel like this change will be a HUGE boon to the survivability of space marines and its my biggest proposed change.

3: All vehicles with the "chapter" keyword have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule. Ignoring the penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Space Marine Tanks suck right now. Predators are totally outclassed, I have never seen anyone play a Vindicator and Razorbacks are troop transports not meant to fill up a parking lot. Dreadnoughts being able to move and shoot at Full BS would also give them a much needed boost to be comparable to something like a Knight Armagier.

4: All "chapter" infantry, bikers, and dreadnoughts gain +1 attack.

In 7th Edition at least Marines had their Initiative 4 which meant that they struck first in Close Combat against "most" opponents. Now with the way close combat works, that is not really the case anymore. An additional attack would help to make up for their loss of "first strike" potential.

5: Make Terminators WS/BS 2+ and 3 Wounds.

I dont remember the last time I saw someone taking Terminators in 8th edition. Matter of fact I dont remember seeing anyone take Terminators in 7th edition either... Make them WS/BS 2+ to make up for their loss of relentless and it only makes sense that a veteran in terminator armor specifically designed for close assault operations is going to be a proficient close combat fighter. It suddenly makes both assault or basic terminators significantly scarier in close combat and less dependent on buffing characters. Combine 3 wounds with my proposed AP modifier and all of a sudden you have a unit you can deep strike viably without NEEDING to get a buff character in with them to get something out of them.


6: Increase the range of all character aura effects by 3 Inches.

Guard have their orders, Tau have their markerlights, Eldar has a hellaciously effective psychic phase and Space Marines have their Re-Roll Auras. Make them slightly larger and it will go a long way to help give marines a more flexible and mobile game play instead of the traditional "castle."

7: Exploding 6s. Count each hit roll of a 6 with "Bolt Weapons" as two instead of 1 when determining the number of to wound rolls made on a target.

Its an exponentially better bolter drill stratagem and its universal. Bolters took a hit in the transition from 7th to 8th loosing the ability to pop flack armor and other similar light infantry. At least give us something to make up for it with volume. Chaos Marines get death to the false emperor in combat this could serve as a loyalist equivalent.

I dont feel like any of these proposed options would be too game breaking.

1. Most people agree with this. Some of the Chapter Tactics need to be worked on though. I was personally a fan of how Imperial Guard handled it, but it would be considerably more work.
2. If you wanted a Chapter to function like Lucius for AdMech I'm okay for that. This rule is far too silly though.
3. Nah. This should be for only a select few vehicles.
4. I'm neutral on this one.
5. I'm basically the person shoving the idea of WS/BS2+ Terminators in everyone's face. However I would rather give them an extra attack instead of an extra wound. You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes.
6. I would rather focus on making Marines more functional without the need for reroll. The standard 6" is fine as is.
7. I proposed the idea of a 6 To Wound forces the model to reroll a successful save as a new mechanic. Someone else proposes the idea that Bolt weapons cause an extra autohit upon an unsuccessful save. I liked that one as it wasn't too over the top.

So full disclosure, my pet preference for marines in general would be to rework them from the groundup and make them significantly beefier and less numerous than they are now. So I have my biases on marine rules suggestions. Trying to put those aside, I can get behind a lot of this. Some thoughts:

1. Sure. No broken combos jump to mind. Giving pseudo-fly to UM vehicles seems annoying, but some people would like to see that become a rule for vehicles/monsters in general, so...

2. Ehhh. I don't hate this. The proliferation of AP -1 or better weapons, despite feeling good against most targets, does sort of hit marines harder than it probably ought to. My main objection here is that it doesn't do anything to help marines against most small arms fire while also basically negating the investment in better AP options. To me, it's lamer when a marine dies to a random lasgun than when he dies to some shiny xenos weapon designed to get through snazzy armor. Plus, it feels bad to have taken, say, inferno weapons because they're good at killing heavy infantry, only to have half their advantage negated by said heavy infantry. That said, I don't really have an alternative marine durability booster in mind that doesn't involve overhauling marines to look like primaris.

3. This feels weird. I get that it's frustrating when you're to-hit roll of 3 misses, but surely things like eldar should be better at shooting on the move than mon-keigh tanks. And if we give this to all the factions where it makes sense to be good at shooting on the move, then you've just created this weird dispairty between the haves and the have-nots that you'd have to address. Basically, why does it make sense for marines to ignore the heavy weapon penalty but not eldar or tau or orks?

4. I'm for this. (Again, preferably as part of a larger rework)

5. Wouldn't be opposed to this. I think that 3 wounds on terminators does good things for them. Having to fail 3 2+ saves against small arms fire makes them feel properly resistant to such attacks. Being able to take multiple 2 damage hits before dropping feels a lot better than dying to each one. Basically, a lot of the issues with overpriced 2+ saves are diminished when you have 3 wounds instead of 2. This plus the #2 suggestion feels like double-dipping though.

6. Kind of meh on this. To me, marines feel like they should be able to function effectively even while dispersed across the battlefield. I'd rather see them swap some of the auras for something akin to orders. Having your captain shout, "Bring down the xenos machine!" at the right moment to maximize the firepower of his forces feels better than everyone shuffling their feet while bunched together. The aura mania feels more like a tyranid thing, and I suspect it's the result of the designers being told auras were a thing while also coming up with new rules for lieutenants and reimagining ICs like chaplains.

7. I"d be okay with this. It's weird that most armies have a gimmick on their basic guns except marines these days. That said, if you were to overhaul marines more thoroughly, I think you could probably up the volume of shots on marines in some fashion and have that work perfectly well. Add 1 to the bolter's shots if the marine didn't move that turn, or something.

BA vehicles treat all weapons as "assault".

BA chapter tactic fixed.

"You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes. "

Anything that wants to live needs 3W, not 2W. Custodes should be T6 W5, so they are actually better than fricking grotesques. Terminators need 3 wounds imo.

But then Custodes Bikes are T7 6 Wounds, and characters are something like 9 wounds.

Do you really want that?

Yup. Because everything in the game needs stretched up to provide room at the bottom. Grotesques being better than Custodes is ridiculous.

Martel732 wrote:
BA vehicles treat all weapons as "assault".

BA chapter tactic fixed.

"You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes. "

Anything that wants to live needs 3W, not 2W. Custodes should be T6 W5, so they are actually better than fricking grotesques. Terminators need 3 wounds imo.

That's an issue with certain D2 weapons. I've already explained why 3 wounds or -1 damage scales terribly. Do I need to do it again?

 Shootin Putin wrote:
I've been doing a lot of thinking about Chapter Approved #2 lately or even a Marines Codex 2.0 and I think I think I have come to a few conclusions to help bring the Marines up to snuff with newer books.

1: Chapter Tactics will apply to every unit with the "chapter" keyword.

Every other "Chapter Tactic" equivalent works for every unit in the book why not Space Marines?

Wont be happening, Ork codex has the same inane restrictions on units and kultures.

2: All "chapter" Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts reduce the AP of incoming attacks by 1. (IE: A Plasma Gun will only be AP -2 instead of AP -3.)

It's too easy to kill a Marine and Knight Armagiers have made Dreadnoughts obsolete. By reducing incoming AP by 1 I feel like this change will be a HUGE boon to the survivability of space marines and its my biggest proposed change.

I agree, but this should only be for units in Tactical / Primaris armor.

3: All vehicles with the "chapter" keyword have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule. Ignoring the penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

The heavy penalty should only be for non-terminator infantry, and this should apply for all armies.

4: All "chapter" infantry, bikers, and dreadnoughts gain +1 attack.

No. I do NOT want to see Spacewolves with an extra attack, always first hit and ignore first AP value.

5: Make Terminators WS/BS 2+ and 3 Wounds.

No. Ignore first AP, +1 attack at WS AND 3 Wounds?
More elegant solution would be to remove all heavy weapon penalties, including Power fists etc from all terminator like units.

Or, perhaps increase the Invulnerable save of Terminators by 1 per damage of the gun, starting at 6++.

6: Increase the range of all character aura effects by 3 Inches.

No. This removes the punishment of "Aura deathball" using the one or two AOE things in the game.
I'd rather see Marines get their own version of the order system.

7: Exploding 6s. Count each hit roll of a 6 with "Bolt Weapons" as two instead of 1 when determining the number of to wound rolls made on a target.

No.
To sum up for the same points you want:
+1 Attack
Ignore first AP
Exploding 6's with a constant reroll aura
WS/BS 2+ on certain units.

Sure, wishlist away but these haven't been though through when added together.
The game needs less of:
- Rerolls
- Auto hits (BS 2+ and Rerolls, begone!)

So how would you determine a Terminator save against a random damage weapon?

Terminator gets hit by Lascannon on a 4.
Wounded on a roll of 5.
And then the save roll is... What?

It could be as bad as 5+, or as good as 0+, depending on the damage roll which happens AFTER the save.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA vehicles treat all weapons as "assault".

BA chapter tactic fixed.

"You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes. "

Anything that wants to live needs 3W, not 2W. Custodes should be T6 W5, so they are actually better than fricking grotesques. Terminators need 3 wounds imo.

That's an issue with certain D2 weapons. I've already explained why 3 wounds or -1 damage scales terribly. Do I need to do it again?

I think 3 wounds scales great. I don't accept your explanation, so don't bother. They gave custodes too few wounds, and so now there is no design space left. Not my problem. 3W is a very viable fix. Just like gravis armor granting +1 W as well.

One of the things I am surprised every time I see a battle report is so many armys has a invuln save. SM marines should have one. The price we are paying for each unit, we need an ++

High AP is really only effective vs marines and IG atm. Most other armies have too many invulns at their disposal. That's why I don't take many high AP weapons anymore. And I still have no problem with terminators. -1 is sufficient to remove them, particularly if it 2 damage -1 AP. Hence, the call for 3 wounds.

I think that the humble bolter could use a tweak. Either some kind of +1 damage on 6s, or exploding hits effect on 6s to hit would work.

However, in my mind, the Chapter Tactics need a complete overhaul....look at the Ork Kultures...they are basically THREE things rolled into one.

The other thing is strategems. In the current environment, 90% of them are worthless, overpriced, or both. Need to be brought into line with the rest of the meta.

Finally, ignoring the first point of AP on power armor without reducing cost of the model is a decent step towards making marines feel like bloody marines again.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA vehicles treat all weapons as "assault".

BA chapter tactic fixed.

"You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes. "

Anything that wants to live needs 3W, not 2W. Custodes should be T6 W5, so they are actually better than fricking grotesques. Terminators need 3 wounds imo.

That's an issue with certain D2 weapons. I've already explained why 3 wounds or -1 damage scales terribly. Do I need to do it again?

I think 3 wounds scales great. I don't accept your explanation, so don't bother. They gave custodes too few wounds, and so now there is no design space left. Not my problem. 3W is a very viable fix. Just like gravis armor granting +1 W as well.

Fine. If you won't accept my explanation, explain HOW three wounds scales well.

The whole game needs more differentiation between units. Terminators and gravis at 3W would differentiate them from 2W primaris. Custodes need to be increased to 5W to get them above grotesques and ogryns. To me, it's about differentiation and protection from 2 damage weapons. I'm not as concerned about scaling. I don't really understand the magnitude of your concern with it, honestly.

Here's something I posted about the design space for Marines a while back, you guys gotta try to work within this otherwise you break or invalidate other chapters and factions.

 Eonfuzz wrote:


I think 3 Wound Primaris is a bit over the top, as 2 W is *only* bad right now due to the over abundance of 2 Damage weapons.

imo the only solution is a new mechanic, not more stats as everyone and their mother uses marines as the baseline.
Not to mention that the change cannot be blown out of proportion by the other marine factions.

Here's some of the restricted design space:
- Marines cannot have an extra attack
- Space Wolves and Blood Angels benefit from it too much
- Marines cannot have BS 2+ / WS 2+
- Space Wolves trait is now useless
- Removes design space for veterans
- Marines cannot have a FNP
- Iron Hands trait is now useless
- No extra wound or attack
- muh primaris
- No higher armour save
- Kills terminator space
- No rerolling armour save
- 2+ rerolling in cover is bad design

This basically means marines must be improved sideways, not vertically.
Some examples of sideways upgrades:
- Ignore first AP of all weapons shot at them
- Reduce damage taken by 1, to a minimum of 1 (This may only apply to Primaris and their brethren)
- Special ammunition variations for all bolters, unique to snowflake faction ( Perhaps change for 1 CP at the start of your turn ) ie.
- Exploding Shot: 2 damage against < INFANTRY > targets
- Neurotoxin Shot: Units shot at by this weapon strike as if they did not charge this turn (Including in overwatch)
- Haywire Shot: For everyone 1 damage suffered by weapons with this shot, reduce its M by 1" and its BS by 1 (to a maximum of 6+).

The special ammunition would also make taking 'max marine squads' good again, as it minimises the cost of changing shots.

There is no design space remaining then. Point reduction, it is.

I don't like any of the sideways "fixes". Just admit they suck and price accordingly.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

imo the only solution is a new mechanic, not more stats as everyone and their mother uses marines as the baseline.
Not to mention that the change cannot be blown out of proportion by the other marine factions.

Here's some of the restricted design space:
- Marines cannot have an extra attack
- Space Wolves and Blood Angels benefit from it too much
- Marines cannot have BS 2+ / WS 2+
- Space Wolves trait is now useless
- Removes design space for veterans
- Marines cannot have a FNP
- Iron Hands trait is now useless
- No extra wound or attack
- muh primaris

You talk about a new mechanic, but I expected that to mean something that's interactive and works in a new way, not that just raise the chances of a save and raise the chances of a wound.

I'm not sure I'm worried about infringing on things like the space wolves' trait, which isn't sacred, it's just a rule and they went without it from third to seventh editions. Primaris don't have a solid and exclusive claim on a second wound. They're brand new.
They could just as well have come out last year with one wound and M7" S5, we'd never even have heard of the second wound. Very very few of these things seem like immovable obstacles.

I don't really understand the "design space" confinement you guys are so worried about. I don't see anyone complaining that Bullgryns are stepping on Custodes toes (or vice versa) with their T5, 2+ sv, and 3W. Yet somehow giving a termie 2 of those 3 is too close to Custodes. (funny enough, Custodes and Bullgryns tend to be viewed more favorably than Termies so there's an argument that it would be a positive change)

To add on to that, I firmly believe that Primaris stats should just be the standard marine stats. Primaris are structurally different anyway, so there's no strict need to make them marines +1. (aside from marketing) And I'd give SoB 2W base (though still at T3) to keep things consistent. Orks and Necrons infantry too while were at it since they're supposed to be tough yet an ork boy dies just as fast as a guardsman (also 2W helps ork specialists like lootas since they use the same basic profile and their major problem is survival). It'd help differentiate heavy infantry to light infantry much more easily (T3 to T4 is only a minor boost after all)

It's his rules. Not mine. As I said, Custodes need 5W.

Martel732 wrote:
It's his rules. Not mine. As I said, Custodes need 5W.

These are the rules the game has to be designed in to prevent unit roles from stepping on toes.
GW would want this because it lets them sell models, and is a [good] design goal.

The oversaturation of statlines and models ARE a problem, especially for imperium players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

imo the only solution is a new mechanic, not more stats as everyone and their mother uses marines as the baseline.

You talk about a new mechanic, but I expected that to mean something that's interactive and works in a new way, not that just raise the chances of a save and raise the chances of a wound.

I'm not sure I'm worried about infringing on things like the space wolves' trait, which isn't sacred, it's just a rule and they went without it from third to seventh editions. Primaris don't have a solid and exclusive claim on a second wound. They're brand new.
They could just as well have come out last year with one wound and M7" S5, we'd never even have heard of the second wound. Very very few of these things seem like immovable obstacles.

Yes, but if you want to talk about realistic changes you must take those into account.

But in order for marines to NOT be overshadowed by their better brethren, the Primaris they must do something they can't.
Perhaps GW's goal here is for them to be overshadowed, in which case all this theorycrafting is pointless

Well, they aren't going to get that if everything has one or two wounds only and it tops out a three for custodes. They done fethed themselves there.

Regular marines are still better than primaris atm, because they give up points slower to multi-wound and get actual guns.

But after playing against Sisters many times, I'm pretty convinced that tac marines are 10 ppm or 11 at the most. The WS and S don't do a thing (only one swing), and the T doesn't help vs the weapons invalidating marines. If sisters get caught in CC, they just tarpit and the other squads just keep shooting. Because 9 ppm.

One of the problems of too much escalation is you will need AT weapons to kill anything. If Custodes went to 5W then a fething lascannon (an Antitank weapon) will have trouble causing enough wounds.

Orks are supposed to be able to soak more damage than a marine out of armour. You blow a guardsmans arm off he's dead; You blow a marines arm off he out of the battle; You blow an orks arm off he kills you with his other won and staples it back on after the battle.

The ripple effect I think. Small changes can have big effects.

The problem is that elite troops IRL are in trouble when heavily outnumbered. Just look at the special forces that were killed in Mogadishu (see the movie Blackhawk Down for the dramatisation of the real event). There is just too much firepower crammed into modern 40k.

These are the changes I'd like to see:

+1 Attack all around (Minus Characters), This would bring up units like Tactical Squads in versatility, and give Assault Squads a little extra punch.

+1 AP for bolt guns. Bolt guns suck. There's no way around it. This would help them against all types of infantry, against which they extremely underperform.

Chapter Tactics apply to everything. This should be for every faction. Ideally, each trait would have a section for vehicle's, but I doubt we'll see that.

Give Vets WS/BS 2+. This should go around for all factions. Ideally, I'd also like to see a smaller amount of rerolls with this change.

Obviously, point costs may need to be adjusted for these, but I think it could go a long way in buffing SM. Other factions this effects, others with bolt guns ect., would need to be reviewed and points would need to be adjusted.

I'd also like to see an Iron Father unit for the IH as a generic HQ, along with a generic Tank Commander and Sniper Sergeant. (Really, just give most named characters a generic version, for Your Dudes.)

Edit;

Sir Heckington wrote:
These are the changes I'd like to see:

+1 Attack all around (Minus Characters), This would bring up units like Tactical Squads in versatility, and give Assault Squads a little extra punch.

+1 AP for bolt guns. Bolt guns suck. There's no way around it. This would help them against all types of infantry, against which they extremely underperform.

Chapter Tactics apply to everything. This should be for every faction. Ideally, each trait would have a section for vehicle's, but I doubt we'll see that.

Give Vets WS/BS 2+. This should go around for all factions (Crisis suits, looking at you.) Ideally, I'd also like to see a smaller amount of rerolls with this change.

Obviously, point costs may need to be adjusted for these, but I think it could go along way in buffing SM. Other factions this effects, others with bolt guns ect., would need to be reviewed and points would need to be adjusted.

I'd also like to see an Iron Father unit for the IH as a generic HQ, along with a generic Tank Commander and Sniper Sergeant. (Really, just give most named characters a generic version, for Your Dudes.)

The first two have been addressed they are called primaris marines they just currently still cost about 2-3 points more than they should.

The chapter tactics thing is annoying but not surr even that would sace marines Vehicals their is just way better for less points out there.

Vets having improved WS,BS ok but not sure ecen as a tau player I can get behind WS2+, BS2+ Crisis suits. They would be nice and nasty but thats custodes levels of stats.

Ice_can wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
These are the changes I'd like to see:

+1 Attack all around (Minus Characters), This would bring up units like Tactical Squads in versatility, and give Assault Squads a little extra punch.

+1 AP for bolt guns. Bolt guns suck. There's no way around it. This would help them against all types of infantry, against which they extremely underperform.

Chapter Tactics apply to everything. This should be for every faction. Ideally, each trait would have a section for vehicle's, but I doubt we'll see that.

Give Vets WS/BS 2+. This should go around for all factions (Crisis suits, looking at you.) Ideally, I'd also like to see a smaller amount of rerolls with this change.

Obviously, point costs may need to be adjusted for these, but I think it could go along way in buffing SM. Other factions this effects, others with bolt guns ect., would need to be reviewed and points would need to be adjusted.

I'd also like to see an Iron Father unit for the IH as a generic HQ, along with a generic Tank Commander and Sniper Sergeant. (Really, just give most named characters a generic version, for Your Dudes.)

The first two have been addressed they are called primaris marines they just currently still cost about 2-3 points more than they should.

The chapter tactics thing is annoying but not surr even that would sace marines Vehicals their is just way better for less points out there.

Vets having improved WS,BS ok but not sure ecen as a tau player I can get behind WS2+, BS2+ Crisis suits. They would be nice and nasty but thats custodes levels of stats.

1: Honestly, screw primaris marines. They should just be removed from the game. I know GW won't do this because they want their new special marines, but this is a wishlist.

2: Yes. They are worse than some other vehicles. Remove grinding advance, or add it, and the issue is fixed (mostly).

3: I mean BS3+, WS4+ Crisis suits. Ideally Commanders would be the same. Vets should be on a Character level, and Characters should usually be just a little bit better than their counterparts.

+1A -1AP, actually most of these fixes people have demanded seem so linear, and they were always a huge turnoff for being.

I was actually pretty offended by Primaris because they were a capitulation to that kind of thinking.

Heckington do you mean shas'ui or sha'vre? I think it's pretty important, actually.

see to me, shas'ui and veteran marines have an exceptional amount of gumption, and that's what makes them exceptional compared to regular soldiers. It seems more likely that there'd be a skilled marksman who's content to do his job as a regular soldier, and an average shot who has unusual grit and gets promoted to the elite or sergeant level corps, in marines or tau.

Then out of those units there are some who also have unusual amounts of skill, and they are from where the Shas'vre, the Sanguinary Guard, honor guard, and deathwing knights come.

pelicaniforce wrote:
+1A -1AP, actually most of these fixes people have demanded seem so linear, and they were always a huge turnoff for being.

I was actually pretty offended by Primaris because they were a capitulation to that kind of thinking.

Heckington do you mean shas'ui or sha'vre? I think it's pretty important, actually.

see to me, shas'ui and veteran marines have an exceptional amount of gumption, and that's what makes them exceptional compared to regular soldiers. It seems more likely that there'd be a skilled marksman who's content to do his job as a regular soldier, and an average shot who has unusual grit and gets promoted to the elite or sergeant level corps, in marines or tau.

Then out of those units there are some who also have unusual amounts of skill, and they are from where the Shas'vre, the Sanguinary Guard, honor guard, and deathwing knights come.

I'd say sergeants of squads should keep the same stats, with their extra A and LD (Heck, you could remove the A.) The main reason for this is simplicity. Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts in stats that actually matter, we already see this in play with Guard Vets. Why not other factions?

Yes, the marine fixes are linear. The other solution is to add more special rules. I don't think we need more special rules. I think with the removal of Primaris, it'd slot in a good slot for Marines. Their 3+ SV, and T4 still make them tough, while -1 AP and +1 A make them reasonably decent at offensive power. Heck you could even keep Primaris, they still have 2 wounds, which is a pretty big difference.

We aren't removing Primaris. They exist. Get over it.

Really - these would all be great changes. As a whole this list addresses all the issues I have with the army even going as far as to give some more flexibility to positioning on the battle field.

The only thing that is missing is a rework of a few stratagems and psychic powers but that's not as big as an issue as the issues listed above.

Man...Shootin Puttin's first post is remarkably on point for a newb...I wonder who he really is...