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Sterling191 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Yet people don't use deathwatch?

Even I don't like using deathwatch as they are too limited in what they are doing.

*shrug*

I'm having an absolute blast with my Primaris Deathwatch. Some folks can't wrap their head around Imperial aspect warriors I guess. I'm not one of them.

I am fine with that honestly.

I would love to have aspect warriors for 40k marines.

Or honestly anything from the 30k space marine armies. Volkite weaponry or anything that raises the value of having a space marine army. (like legion rules, or chapter specific units)

 Asherian Command wrote:

I would love to have aspect warriors for 40k.

You already do. They're called Primaris Space Marines.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Deathwatch are looking at AP -2 Bolt Rifles and AP -1 Auto Bolt Rifles and laughing hysterically.

They don't have that? What about equipment decreases?

Oh they have that, but they don't get to auto-wound anything that isnt a tank with a roll of a 2 in that profile.

Baseline bullets hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s) wounding on 2s (rerolling 1s) with AP-2? The cheese is strong with this one.

Yet people don't use deathwatch?

Even I don't like using deathwatch as they are too limited in what they are doing.

Deathwatch is far less limited than regular Marines.

Seriously after all these posts in this thread, I'm not convinced you play Marines. At all.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I would love to have aspect warriors for 40k.

You already do. They're called Primaris Space Marines.

Eh, I can see that now that you mention it but it means every other squad is now not up to par to space marines.

Deathwatch is far less limited than regular Marines.

Seriously after all these posts in this thread, I'm not convinced you play Marines. At all.

Well so far you have ignored the majority of my points. Or completely glossed over them.

Lets try it similarly : Then you haven't played death watch then have you? They are limited. Chapter tactics, chapter relics etc. But you would never take a single mono army of space marines or deathwatch as that is stupidity incarnate in this current meta and play styles.

Deathwatch fuzzled out, the only reason to take deathwatch would be troop choices (intercessors with auto bolt rifles) and maybe 2 watch captains. Other than that there is nothing in their army to take because they are just space marines with no additional benefits that could initially help them.

Overall no scouts are the best troop choices for space marines (if you go mono) but at that point just get guardsmen for cheap CP and don't even take space marines except for Bobby G.

Having all those Chapter Tactics is a false choice though because literally only one was good, Raven Guard, and they nerfed one of the best parts about them. So your relics are limited too (ooooh +1T for Salamanders! Give me a break).

And yeah they do have a benefit. They get the Lt. benefit baked into their cost for your choice target type. That's REALLY good for the cost. And you can switch that target type for only 2CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. I don't think you looked at any Marines ever. Your posts are super misinformed.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Deathwatch fuzzled out, the only reason to take deathwatch would be troop choices (intercessors with auto bolt rifles) and maybe 2 watch captains. Other than that there is nothing in their army to take because they are just space marines with no additional benefits that could initially help them.

Overall no scouts are the best troop choices for space marines (if you go mono) but at that point just get guardsmen for cheap CP and don't even take space marines except for Bobby G.

Deathwatch have their Chapter Tactics in their Mission and SIA profiles, which they can adjust on the fly against every target. Combine with the mixed unit rules and you can tailor terrifyingly flexible and specific loadouts.

Their only real shortcoming is a lack of AT, which can be easily overcome with FW and allies.

1. Scouts are best troop choice by default because how tacs severely under perform for their cost.
2. Scouts aren't taken for their offensive output, but for their flexible deployment option that provides much needed screening for SM. When taken for their offensive output, shotguns have highest offensive output point-for-point under right circumstances among non-special weapons they can take
3. Sniper rifle looks good on paper, but you're relying on a pot-shot 6's to actually deal damage as they are S4 AP0. Sniper rifles were good when they had S X, when they did +4 to wound against non-vehicle targets. Even against a humble Commissar, you're dealing 1W only 29.62% per shot, with 7.41% chance to deal MW. Even THEN the commissar would still be alive with 1 W.

Scouts still suck, though. Being the best ball of gak still means the unit is gak.

Martel732 wrote:
Scouts still suck, though. Being the best ball of gak still means the unit is gak.

Dwarf among midgets, I'd say.

Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

It's a model with a much more effective melee output. Of course it has worse shooting. For the cost though, you almost get 2 Shoota Boyz, which I'd say is better.

Scouts really only have the deployment shenanagins. That's it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

It's a model with a much more effective melee output. Of course it has worse shooting. For the cost though, you almost get 2 Shoota Boyz, which I'd say is better.

Scouts really only have the deployment shenanagins. That's it.

2 Shoota Boyz are 14 points now.

A Scout is 11 points.

The Scout has much better armor, better shooting, better deployment, better movement...
The Boyz have better melee, but with slower movement and worse deployment, are not likely to get there very intact.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

Are you talking about Orks? Those Orks that can be taken in absolutely huge mobs, that have multiple ways to avoid taking horrendous losses in the morale phase,and that are meant to be rubbish at shooting (though in huge mobs with the dakkadakka rule are very effective) because they absolutely munch you in combat, that they will get into because of said morale shenanigans. You really can't compare the two as the individual special rules and mechanics of each army add or take away value, and in the sake of the orks, they add huge value.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

It's a model with a much more effective melee output. Of course it has worse shooting. For the cost though, you almost get 2 Shoota Boyz, which I'd say is better.

Scouts really only have the deployment shenanagins. That's it.

2 Shoota Boyz are 14 points now.

A Scout is 11 points.

The Scout has much better armor, better shooting, better deployment, better movement...
The Boyz have better melee, but with slower movement and worse deployment, are not likely to get there very intact.

It really isn't better shooting for the price, and in fact is more around the same The two Boyz would land 1.3 ordinarily, sure. That's not including the DDD rule though (honestly I didn't want to math that out), and that's actually the same average for a Scout shooting at Rapid Fire range (1.3). So 3 points over but with the DDD rule kinda evens out.

I won't deny durability (though not a lot is there) and deployment, but let's not pretend the Scout really shoots better.

At 18-24", Scout is infinitely better because they have range and Boyz don't.

At 12-18", Scouts get .061 hits per point, whereas Boyz get (WITH Dakka Dakka Dakka) .052 hits per point.

At under 12", Scouts get improved to .121 hits per point, Boyz stay the same.

If the enemy is Ravenguard or, worse, a Stealth Suit (or anything else that ALWAYS imposes a -1 on shooting), Boyz drop to .014 hits per point whenever they're in range.

Scouts, meanwhile, are at .045 at greater than 12" and at .091 at 12" or less.

Their shooting is better by a significant margin.

Edit: Feth, I completely forgot that Shootas are two shots.

Nevermind, Ork Shooting does edge out Scout shooting. (Unless facing a -1 hit penalty.)

Well yeah they've always been Assault 2 weapons. Otherwise you'd have literally no reason to look at them.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Paying 11 pts for 4+ armor REALLY sucks, though. At least tacs and intercessors can hold their ground vs bolter bitches. Scouts just melt b/c 3+ is where they top out. It's really a lose lose lose position.

Yeah, they're CLEARLY the worst at that. Not like there's a now 7 PPM model that only has a 6+. And has worse shooting.

It's a model with a much more effective melee output. Of course it has worse shooting. For the cost though, you almost get 2 Shoota Boyz, which I'd say is better.

Scouts really only have the deployment shenanagins. That's it.

2 Shoota Boyz are 14 points now.

A Scout is 11 points.

The Scout has much better armor, better shooting, better deployment, better movement...
The Boyz have better melee, but with slower movement and worse deployment, are not likely to get there very intact.

boys don't move 6? Plus they have assault weapon - and an army trait which lets them ignore the penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons + bonus advance dice. WOW.

Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

Fun fact: I can charge a full 20-man Crusader Squad with melee weapons into their equivalent points in Boyz and have the privilege of losing when I swing first. Replace the Crusader Squad with literally any other melee unit in the book and the result is the same. So maybe, just maybe, I have a bit of a tough time feeling sympathy for the poor downtrodden Orks.

Obligatory mention of the fact that you can double the attacks of any melee units in the Marine Codex and still be worse per point than Khorne Berzerkers in offensive output bar some edge cases.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

If you don't think Flash Gitz deserved to go up in points after that overhaul though, I don't know what to say.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

why does an ork move slower than a human?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

why does an ork move slower than a human?

Ask GW. Probably the same reason Nurglings are T2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

If you don't think Flash Gitz deserved to go up in points after that overhaul though, I don't know what to say.

I never said anything other than that Flash Gitz are a change I knew of. Like, the profile change-not the points cost.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Fun fact: I can charge a full 20-man Crusader Squad with melee weapons into their equivalent points in Boyz and have the privilege of losing when I swing first. Replace the Crusader Squad with literally any other melee unit in the book and the result is the same. So maybe, just maybe, I have a bit of a tough time feeling sympathy for the poor downtrodden Orks.

Obligatory mention of the fact that you can double the attacks of any melee units in the Marine Codex and still be worse per point than Khorne Berzerkers in offensive output bar some edge cases.

Look out, some more wild hyperbole from people wanting sympathy for their poor downtrodden marines.
Did you forget that your Crusaders have melee weapons? Or forget about their pistols. Oh, I know. They forgot their privilege of donning their armour that battle!

Assuming you get your "20 man charge" against a full healthy squad of "30 orks" this is what happens:
Bolt Pistol Shooting
20 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 5/6 = 5.55 Dead Orks

Overwatch
Choppa Boyz with overwatch:
(26 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (26 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 1.68 dead crusaders, including Dakka Dakka Dakka!

Melee
37 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 5/6 = 10.27 Dead Orks

And now the Orks strike back
44 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 2/6 = 4.88 Dead Crusaders
Nob w/ Power Klaw
3 * 3/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 1.041 Dead Crusaders

So thats 110 points worth of dead orks, 87 Points of dead Crusaders
Followed by the Morale phase which will wipe out at least 1d6 additional Orks.

Also note, this isn't including any of your marine rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Boyz move 5", unless that's changed in the Dex. The only change I heard, so far, is for Flash Gitz and Boyz going to 7 points.

If you don't think Flash Gitz deserved to go up in points after that overhaul though, I don't know what to say.

+4 BS and a +4 Save?

But oh I thought 3 points aren't worth a 3+ save and 3+ WS/BS. How does that make an additional 3 points worth +4 BS and +4 save?

The echo chamber here is total madness.

Did you include Overwatch, and additional Klan rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also forgot the new Strength and Damage on the Flash Gitz gun too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you include Overwatch, and additional Klan rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also forgot the new Strength and Damage on the Flash Gitz gun too.

Choppa Boyz with overwatch:
(31 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 2.009 dead crusaders, including Dakka Dakka Dakka!

Which Klan rules?
Flash Gitz were so stupidly overpriced for a less than 1 shot on average round of firing, so it's not really comparable.

Edit: It also doesn't include lost Orks from shooting

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you include Overwatch, and additional Klan rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also forgot the new Strength and Damage on the Flash Gitz gun too.

Choppa Boyz with overwatch:
(31 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 2.009 dead crusaders, including Dakka Dakka Dakka!

Which Klan rules?
Flash Gitz were so stupidly overpriced for a less than 1 shot on average round of firing, so it's not really comparable.

Edit: It also doesn't include lost Orks from shooting

There's several Klan rules that would've had effect: Goffs, Snakebites, Deathskulls, and Bad Moonz (though that would've been minimal effect on the Overwatch). Freebooterz it would have to depend on earlier.

The only thing that Black Templars can do is guarantee a charge.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you include Overwatch, and additional Klan rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also forgot the new Strength and Damage on the Flash Gitz gun too.

Choppa Boyz with overwatch:
(31 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 2.009 dead crusaders, including Dakka Dakka Dakka!

Which Klan rules?
Flash Gitz were so stupidly overpriced for a less than 1 shot on average round of firing, so it's not really comparable.

Edit: It also doesn't include lost Orks from shooting

There's several Klan rules that would've had effect: Goffs, Snakebites, Deathskulls, and Bad Moonz (though that would've been minimal effect on the Overwatch). Freebooterz it would have to depend on earlier.

The only thing that Black Templars can do is guarantee a charge.

Goffs are about 0.8 extra dead marines
Deathskulls does nothing
Snakebites is about 1.8 less dead Orks
Badmoons is about 2.34413580247 dead orks in overwatch (extra 0.3 more)

Deathskulls literally give rerolls. How would they have done nothing?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deathskulls literally give rerolls. How would they have done nothing?

Uhh I'm not too hot when it comes to matthing out those multiple re-rolls, but i think it works out to:

Deffskull Nob w/ Power Klaw
(31 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (31 * 1/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 2.34 dead crusaders, so 1.34 more marines.

Picking maths apart aside, my point still stands.