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Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, craftworld eldar was never sold to me as "glass cannon." It was sold as "less effective baseline troops, but tons and tons of specialists who are really good at one thing in particular". Dark Eldar and Harlequins are the "super fast glass cannon". Eldar has always had heavy and medium vehicles (hovertanks, wraiths, etc) and aspects that wear heavy armor as well as speedy aspects.

Craftworld Eldar have been a bit of everything through the decades.

There isn't really anything wrong with Eldar forces being "elite" - its just that in edition after edition some units have managed to get the perks without paying for them.
I also feel the "they are specialists" card hasn't really worked since 2nd edition. I mean if your Fire Dragons end up facing down Ork boys thats kind of your fault. Its no different from the Ork Players Tankbustas - your dragons have just typically been "better" (I realise they cost too much now).
But then this is tied up with "Marines are all rounders" which has always been nonsense.

Sort of related to the CA thread - Hellions are a glass cannon, Shining Spears not so much.

Not quite sure why people are praising the variety. But I guess thats what we are calling the many flavours of Soup now.

Still +1 for Lamenters making it.

I understand that this has changed somewhat in recent editions, but at least when I started, Eldar looked like this:

-The guardians, fire prisms, vypers and war walkers (basically, the guardian core units) had flexible upgrades like marines but paid more for being generalists.

-The aspects had one thing they were really good at and were pretty bad when thrown at anything else

Striking scorpions for anti-horde melee
Howling banshees for anti-marine melee
Shining Spears great on the charge bad in sustained fights
fire dragons good vs tanks bad vs other stuff
Spiders good at shooting tough things bad at shooting armor
Dark reapers good at shooting MEQs bad at shooting tanks/infantry
Dire avengers good at shooting infantry bad at shooting tanks because theyre basically an all-bolter unit.

Each Aeldari faction is not especially overpowered on its own bar a couple of slightly under-costed units, its the soup factor + Ynarri that brings it over the line. If they nerf Ynarri & the Alaitoc trait along with soup in general, the power will come down to what it should be.

Good mix of lists I think is a good sign of the meta. Yannari, as always, still needs to be nerfed to a reasonable level (I'm sorry, but free phases with eldar quality units is not okay).

B-b-but Catachan Infantry meele spam is very weak! Dakkadakka told me so!

For the curious, the lists
Original link: https://spikeybits.com/2018/10/unbeatable-top-3-lists-in-40k-from-socal-open-2018.html (I know, clickbaity etc... but I have to give them credit)


TOP 1 Catachan blablabla list:



TOP 2 Tyranids





TOP 3 Eldar Soup

CW batallion

With a Ynnari sperhead

and DE batallion

Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Good mix of lists I think is a good sign of the meta. Yannari, as always, still needs to be nerfed to a reasonable level (I'm sorry, but free phases with eldar quality units is not okay).

Lots of armies get free phases. The issue is the units.

honestly I hope they make a ynarri codex and actually rebalance cost of units to ynarri specifically. som e units are good but not game breaking as any eldar craftworld or DE coven... but then add in ynarri and they go up to 11. likewise some units in Eldar and DE codex I think are over costed because of what they in theory would be able to do as ynarri.

Xenomancers, I don't want to be combative, but is very old that every time results from a tournament are reported, and they have lists that you don't consider competitive becomes a "Nah I could win agaisnt those lists, those lists suck, my lists are better"

Maybe those list are used in a way that you haven't seen? By experienced players? With a bit of luck for their part being honest?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Without wanting to be confrontational - what isn't very good about the Tyranid list?
Looks like good units to me.

Be interesting to know if the list went first in most/all of the games.
In fact I wish this was as documented as whether someone went 6-0 or not.

 Galas wrote:
Xenomancers, I don't want to be combative, but is very old that every time results from a tournament are reported, and they have lists that you don't consider competitive becomes a "Nah I could win agaisnt those lists, those lists suck, my lists are better"

Maybe those list are used in a way that you haven't seen? By experienced players? With a bit of luck for their part being honest?

The nid list is basically spamming geensteelers with swarmlord and malanthrope. This is like...a Teir 3 option out of the nids codex. Seriously - it's not good.

My critique is that the list looks kind of like a casual list to me. So if a casual list can win - you can win with anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Without wanting to be confrontational - what isn't very good about the Tyranid list?
Looks like good units to me.

Be interesting to know if the list went first in most/all of the games.
In fact I wish this was as documented as whether someone went 6-0 or not.

It has practically no shooting. Realistically - geenstellers aren't good units.

Plus yeah - if the board is covered with LOS blocking and shooting armies literally can't shoot you - ofc it wins.

Karol wrote:

I'm not surprised by the amount of CP batteries, but the fact that even Admech are taking them says to me that something more fundamental to the units involved to make the loss of synergy with the rest of the list worthwhile.

Well maybe am wrong, and my big tournament expiriance equals the viability of GK, but isnt the foot print of IG for the points they cost something very important, besides the CP they bring? A Castellan doesn't want to get rushed turn 1 by some jetbikers, and IG allows them to do it. Any shoty imperial army benefits from an IG screen.

By points, the GK were the biggest faction at 805.

Ok, I have a different view on that. Having a castellan in the list wouldn't make it a knight list just because it costs 600+pts. It would kind of a suck to see a top GK player prize go to someone who took 700+1point in GK from someone who plays a 2000pts GK army. Although there probablly werent any GK player there, worrying considering the event with almost 200 people should have at least some casual player in it.

It wouldn't be a Sisters list either, then. Grey Knights seem the best category for it, yeah, I see what you mean. Bringing 668 points of X and 666 points of 2 other factions to get "top X player" seem kind of sad.

Speaking of which, what is our highest placing list? Hopefully higher than the GK-Sisters-BA list.

I think people forget that these lists are winning the missions, not the deathmatch.

I think there is a certain problem with the balance of the game when the units are perhaps balanced for a fight, but not for specific missions that have been created by the ITC folks.

I mean, I see Xenomancer complain about the lists being gak in every single comp thread so my guess is at this point that people are focusing way too much on battle capability of a unit and not its mission effectiveness.

In ITC you can score quite heavily throughout the game resulting in you coming ahead at the end regardless of how many units of you got left. In Eternal War, however, the game favors those who persevere in a fight until the last round is over. Then there is Maelstrom of War which can be so swingy that it also favors very often a killy army.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think people forget that these lists are winning the missions, not the deathmatch.

I think there is a certain problem with the balance of the game when the units are perhaps balanced for a fight, but not for specific missions that have been created by the ITC folks.

I mean, I see Xenomancer complain about the lists being gak in every single comp thread so my guess is at this point that people are focusing way too much on battle capability of a unit and not its mission effectiveness.

In ITC you can score quite heavily throughout the game resulting in you coming ahead at the end regardless of how many units of you got left. In Eternal War, however, the game favors those who persevere in a fight until the last round is over. Then there is Maelstrom of War which can be so swingy that it also favors very often a killy army.

There is nothing in ether the second or third placing lists that makes them exceptionally good at missions (except perhaps the malanthrope). In fact there are a lot of things that suggest they wouldn't be...such as...naked khabs and rangers being your only objective grabbers - nether being fast or particularly survivable. (Khabs in venoms or gardians in WS...okay - now we can talk about strong at the mission) Where are the venoms??? 1 WS???. Geensteelers are at the low end of objective grabbing spectrum - they are expensive - and they aren't survivable - and once more if they are capping objectives they literally aren't doing anything else.

Trying to have honest discussion here.
Serious question - how do you win a GT with 1 dedicated shooting unit? Vs armies that probably have 10+ dedicated shooting units.
How to you win on objectives with poor objective holding units? Against armies with indirect fire and strong objective holders.

If you consistently see lists you think are weak winning major events maybe its not that the lists are weak but that your missing whats going on.

How does that Tyranid list win objectives? By parking Rippers on their objectives and Genestealers on yours.
Wanne shoot your stuff at the Rippers? Thats fine, more Genestealers will get to your lines and control your objectives while you hold none.

 Ordana wrote:
If you consistently see lists you think are weak winning major events maybe its not that the lists are weak but that your missing whats going on.

How does that Tyranid list win objectives? By parking Rippers on their objectives and Genestealers on yours.
Wanne shoot your stuff at the Rippers? Thats fine, more Genestealers will get to your lines and control your objectives while you hold none.

Okay - so to win at 40k - just throw melle units into opponents side of the table and cap objectives with min units?

The Nid list surrenders the units killed bonus in exchange for the objective bonus. The game the becomes about secondaries. Reaper counts models, so rippers help there. The list might bleed out on butcher's bill, though. It's unconventional, and it worked THIS time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Good mix of lists I think is a good sign of the meta. Yannari, as always, still needs to be nerfed to a reasonable level (I'm sorry, but free phases with eldar quality units is not okay).

Lots of armies get free phases. The issue is the units.

B.c thats all you need, if you shut down certain units and win over objectives/VP you dont need to kill everything, ITC has 2ndaries that only 1 player can get, you need to get those to win.

The Swarmlord with Tyrant guard will make sure it doesnt die, force a turn 1 and turn 2 charge or VP denier/claimer, along with turn 2 GSC forcing the player to shoot there own unit, and meleeing along with the DSing of Rippers. Kraken is fast, you win on speed and 2ndaries, Guard cant shoot and kill more units if you kill them all turn 1 and 2, giving you more kills for those 1 time only VPs.

Rippers will never get touched due to size/floor 1 rules, etc.. so they can hold onto objectives all game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
If you consistently see lists you think are weak winning major events maybe its not that the lists are weak but that your missing whats going on.

How does that Tyranid list win objectives? By parking Rippers on their objectives and Genestealers on yours.
Wanne shoot your stuff at the Rippers? Thats fine, more Genestealers will get to your lines and control your objectives while you hold none.

Okay - so to win at 40k - just throw melle units into opponents side of the table and cap objectives with min units?

depends on the mission, but... yea

honestly even my take all comers ork list will not have too big of an issue in most games vs that Tyranid list... but nobody is bringing my take all comers battlewagon boys list to high level play either (honestly I think my blue tide foot marines list could also beat it). I can see compared to the competitive lists going now how it is doing well.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Ok. When are you going to go and dominate tournaments with your superior tyranid force?

It might also be a pure meta list. The player might have special insight.

Martel732 wrote:
It might also be a pure meta list. The player might have special insight.

Yeah or he just rolled god like 5++ saves. Anything can happen. Pure melle vs tournament cheese winning 5-1 or 6-0 though? Come on man...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Ok. When are you going to go and dominate tournaments with your superior tyranid force?

I think I said...My casual list (in which i deliberately take weaker choices so my mates and I can have fun games) would beat this list.

The uber nids list I run would beat this with paractically 0 effort. Geenstellers vs Dakka fex is pretty gakking 1 sided in my experience.

Maybe a Mod can change the title to "Xenomancer brags about stuff"

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe a Mod can change the title to "Xenomancer brags about stuff"

I'm not sure how you can construe this as bragging. I'm literally talking about unit selection and army design. I'm not a factor in any of this. I'm simply trying to describe how far down the list of common agreed upon things among tyranid players. Like...Mass geensteelers and swarmlord doesn't work. My uber nids list probably isn't even the best nids list. It's just ALOT better than this list.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe a Mod can change the title to "Xenomancer brags about stuff"

I'm not sure how you can construe this as bragging. I'm literally talking about unit selection and army design. I'm not a factor in any of this. I'm simply trying to describe how far down the list of common agreed upon things among tyranid players. Like...Mass geensteelers and swarmlord doesn't work. My uber nids list probably isn't even the best nids list. It's just ALOT better than this list.

Maybe you could offer insight into how you think the list got so far then.
Because "it can't work, it sucks, my dakkafex list would a-move win" isn't really adding anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It might also be a pure meta list. The player might have special insight.

Yeah or he just rolled god like 5++ saves. Anything can happen. Pure melle vs tournament cheese winning 5-1 or 6-0 though? Come on man...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Ok. When are you going to go and dominate tournaments with your superior tyranid force?

I think I said...My casual list (in which i deliberately take weaker choices so my mates and I can have fun games) would beat this list.

The uber nids list I run would beat this with paractically 0 effort. Geenstellers vs Dakka fex is pretty gakking 1 sided in my experience.

That's not really fair.

There's been a lot of talk about Kraken nids brewing since the FAQ. They're looking like serious contenders in the competitive meta. These lists are pretty much only running max strength Hive Guard for shooting.

It is an extremely high skill type of list though, positioning has to be perfect to pull it off, which might be why it looks weak. But it's really not.

I'm talking about melee heavy Nids in general here mind, there were some oddities in this specific list. Tyrant Guard!?!?

So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Why do we need to talk about it? CA isnt out yet, and some CP nerf only hurts mono not soup. We all know this, we all know they are good, we all know to wait for CA.

I'd rather talk about 2nd place nids as its more interesting, tho he also didnt fight any Ig/Knights lists.

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

That's because the biggest offenders of Aeldari have been addressed in many ways. Vect increased to 4 CP, No deepstrike on turn 1, Dark Reapers gone up in points, Flip-Belts not allowing you to jump over models, and even Farseers and Warlocks have gone up in price(none-Skyrunner that is).

Don't get me wrong, Aeldari soup is still super strong, but it has already taken several hits over the year and I wouldn't be surprised if it took more hits when CA2018 comes out.

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Not really.

CA might slap another 100 points on the Castellan, and he's probably still going to win LVO (and yes, I know, Brandon lost the Castellan turn 1 in the final game .. still forced the Eldar guy to shoot everything and over-extend himself).

No surprises there.

He'd probably need an 300 to 400 point hike to be mathematically roughly equal in damage & resiliance to, say, Predators or something, point for point, which will never happen.

And Guardsman desperately need another 1-2 point, probably more a 4 point hike to be evenly balanced with power armour infantry, which will also never happen.


So whatever. It'll remain broken for a while (which doesn't mean other things out there might not need adjustments also).

ignore this

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

It's literally in the first reply.