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 Vaktathi wrote:
No-los weapons should not be allowed to fire from within an enclosed building, firing a mortar into the ceiling is not going to be healthy

Maybe a mole mortar though...

Yeah that is a great point.

Weapons firing without LOS should take a minus to hit penalty. -1 sounds fair. Hitting on 6s would be more like 7th.

 Marmatag wrote:
Weapons firing without LOS should take a minus to hit penalty. -1 sounds fair. Hitting on 6s would be more like 7th.

We have been asking for this for about 1 1/2 years lol. GW to concerned buffing IG every patch.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


I feel like a lot of these matches are decided by the terrain and not who's driving the army or what the army contains.

This is not an inaccurate reflection of many of the most pivotal battles in human history

To be fair, the basic rules for terrain in 8E are...abysmally thin to begin with and need more fleshing out. The terrain rules were gimmicky in this instance, but should have been no surprise to anyone at this level of competition. Certainly no less gimmicky than shennanigans with characters.

Yeah but in real life hiding in a building doesn't make you immune to damage from demolishes cannons...or even grenades - it actually would increase the damage you take. In real life you can shoot through windows too. I'm more speaking about the artificial ITC rule and not the presence of terrain features which should play a roll - just not in stupid ways like this. This is a mockery of the game. Almost as bad as 50 foot tall titans not being able to assault the roof of a building they could probably step over or walk through - or flying units not being able to assault the second floor of a building.

IMO - with the level of idiotic rules in regards to the above - placing terrain on a board that invites these situations is foolhardy and takes away any semblance of competition.

Agreed. Ruins & multi-level terrains need to be limited to city-fight rules or kill team only.

Area terrain also needs to be reworked heavily IMO.

To be fair, Guard needed to be buffed. The issue is that their basic Infantry received literally every requested buff at once.

Ruins protecting line of sight from every angle shouldn't be a thing. And, also, they shouldn't be in the center of the table. My 2c. LOS blockers with cover are acceptable but you should always be able to move into a position to draw LOS from outside the building.

But that said, varied terrain makes the game interesting. Playing on a bowling ball you'd see the same armies win.

And this AM list is not a surprise, it's been dominating for some time, he's just changed from a shadowsword to a castellan.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Guard needed to be buffed. The issue is that their basic Infantry received literally every requested buff at once.

In both point efficiency per model as well as systematic game mechanics. Currently, the game system favors low cost 1W models.

 skchsan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Guard needed to be buffed. The issue is that their basic Infantry received literally every requested buff at once.

In both point efficiency per model as well as systematic game mechanics. Currently, the game system favors low cost 1W models.

They wanted a few things:
1. Cheaper
2. For them to get their save outside cover
3. The lasgun to not be as bad
4. Orders to be automatic

Getting all 4 at once was pretty absurd.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Guard needed to be buffed. The issue is that their basic Infantry received literally every requested buff at once.

In both point efficiency per model as well as systematic game mechanics. Currently, the game system favors low cost 1W models.

They wanted a few things:
1. Cheaper
2. For them to get their save outside cover
3. The lasgun to not be as bad
4. Orders to be automatic

Getting all 4 at once was pretty absurd.

Don't forget
1. No horde sweeper weapon
2. AP change scales extremely well against innate low Sv

Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Orks also sweep hordes.

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

This isn’t ITC. Its rules of the game.

- You need to be within 1 inch to perform a melee attack.
- If you have enough guardsmen it is possible to be at 1.1 distance from the wall, and if you fill in the perimeter of the building, your basically un-killable.
- You can’t be seen as the wall is there. So no shots.
- You can’t be charged as there is not enough room for a model to be in the 1 inch on the inside of the wall without overlap of the base. And so no melee. And if they can’t come in they are out of Melee range.

At that point, If you have Mortars, put them in the center, and keep killing as you laugh in F.U.

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Orks also sweep hordes.

Hordes aren't the issue. Nore are Heavies. Gman and high volume will kill anything.

The issues are range/mobility/and glass cannon even though you pay defensive premium.

It's basically codex repulsor/agressor/gman for me.

Reemule wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

This isn’t ITC. Its rules of the game.

- You need to be within 1 inch to perform a melee attack.
- If you have enough guardsmen it is possible to be at 1.1 distance from the wall, and if you fill in the perimeter of the building, your basically un-killable.
- You can’t be seen as the wall is there. So no shots.
- You can’t be charged as there is not enough room for a model to be in the 1 inch on the inside of the wall without overlap of the base. And so no melee. And if they can’t come in they are out of Melee range.

At that point, If you have Mortars, put them in the center, and keep killing as you laugh in F.U.

Correct, however, this problem is present because ITC has "closed-in" buildings where you can't draw line of sight into the building from any side. That's the problem. I don't think any GW terrain is closed-in buildings by default.

Honestly mortars should not be able to be fired when A: they have a roof over them and B: the target has a roof over them.
Simply put, common sense.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly mortars should not be able to be fired when A: they have a roof over them and B: the target has a roof over them.
Simply put, common sense.

Or just get rid of any instances where that could even be a problem. The whole ruleset enabling "well my units suck in melee so I'm going to place them where they can't be reached" is extremely poor game mechanic that needs to go out the window.

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly mortars should not be able to be fired when A: they have a roof over them and B: the target has a roof over them.
Simply put, common sense.

Also units inside a building should not be able to control an objective. As there is a rule that says objectives cannot be placed inside of buildings.

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

This isn’t ITC. Its rules of the game.

- You need to be within 1 inch to perform a melee attack.
- If you have enough guardsmen it is possible to be at 1.1 distance from the wall, and if you fill in the perimeter of the building, your basically un-killable.
- You can’t be seen as the wall is there. So no shots.
- You can’t be charged as there is not enough room for a model to be in the 1 inch on the inside of the wall without overlap of the base. And so no melee. And if they can’t come in they are out of Melee range.

At that point, If you have Mortars, put them in the center, and keep killing as you laugh in F.U.

Correct, however, this problem is present because ITC has "closed-in" buildings where you can't draw line of sight into the building from any side. That's the problem. I don't think any GW terrain is closed-in buildings by default.

I'm not aware of any GW terrain defaults. ITC has specific terrain, but none of it exists as a new "ITC only Terrain" its just a codification of take these things from the games rules.

Like several issues, I wish it was fixed with Flamer weapons. Make them not need LOS. And make them do 1D6 shots per 5 models in target unit.

Reemule wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

This isn’t ITC. Its rules of the game.

- You need to be within 1 inch to perform a melee attack.
- If you have enough guardsmen it is possible to be at 1.1 distance from the wall, and if you fill in the perimeter of the building, your basically un-killable.
- You can’t be seen as the wall is there. So no shots.
- You can’t be charged as there is not enough room for a model to be in the 1 inch on the inside of the wall without overlap of the base. And so no melee. And if they can’t come in they are out of Melee range.

At that point, If you have Mortars, put them in the center, and keep killing as you laugh in F.U.

The part that is ITC is the immunity to shooting. Which is the real problem - this is a shooting game.

The magic bunker thing is daft as hell, if a piece of terrain completely blocks LoS then units shouldn't be allowed inside it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd propose something similar to the old forest rules of 4th edition, where you can see into the forest, but not through he forest to the other side.

Our group pretty much does this when we're playing on tables with bad or sub-par terrain -- you can see into and out of the terrain freely, but not through to the other side. The terrain just becomes an abstract area, and it's easy enough to imagine holes being blown through the ruined walls of a building for those who are concerned with the "realism" of which miniatures are visible in the terrain. We have a quick chat beforehand about what terrain pieces it's sensible to apply this to. TLoS is fine when the terrain has been built with it in mind, but this house rule is handy when the terrain available would otherwise just serve as armour buffs with no other impact on LoS.

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

This isn’t ITC. Its rules of the game.

- You need to be within 1 inch to perform a melee attack.
- If you have enough guardsmen it is possible to be at 1.1 distance from the wall, and if you fill in the perimeter of the building, your basically un-killable.
- You can’t be seen as the wall is there. So no shots.
- You can’t be charged as there is not enough room for a model to be in the 1 inch on the inside of the wall without overlap of the base. And so no melee. And if they can’t come in they are out of Melee range.

At that point, If you have Mortars, put them in the center, and keep killing as you laugh in F.U.

Correct, however, this problem is present because ITC has "closed-in" buildings where you can't draw line of sight into the building from any side. That's the problem. I don't think any GW terrain is closed-in buildings by default.

I'm not aware of any GW terrain defaults. ITC has specific terrain, but none of it exists as a new "ITC only Terrain" its just a codification of take these things from the games rules.

Like several issues, I wish it was fixed with Flamer weapons. Make them not need LOS. And make them do 1D6 shots per 5 models in target unit.

It's not "ITC only" but "ITC terrain is the only terrain you'll see at ITC events." And, they produce closed in buildings.

Perhaps I'm missing your point.

If it is.. ITC produced Closed in Buildings that caused this. - Who cares? That cat is out of the bag.

If it is, That terrain only exists at ITC events. - That is wrong. I know many players that swap between formats. Closed building are legal in all games, and while maybe more prevalent in ITC, they can show in any format.

 Marmatag wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly mortars should not be able to be fired when A: they have a roof over them and B: the target has a roof over them.
Simply put, common sense.

Also units inside a building should not be able to control an objective. As there is a rule that says objectives cannot be placed inside of buildings.

As long as the objective is not the building itself or part of the building or literally on top of the building then yes, fully support this suggestion, same with transports aswell.

Next suggestion, if you are holed up in a building and units are within 3" surrounding a building they should all be allowed to use their greanades in the meleephase before a charge, aswell as using their ws+1 instead of bs for hits with the greanades, aswell as autohit weapons (flamers) should automatically do 6 hits. That would A: implement some strategic depth since you now need to run up a squad and B make buildings with LOS and charges not moronicall to interact with.

I imagine that said 10 man IG squad would instantly get wiped like it should in such a case, even when there are just 5 models, whilest at the same time not hurting MEQ's in building to much.

Or create rules where the building is destructible. And if destroyed the terrain is removed. Obviously not going to happen in 8th but they have rules like this in Necromunda.

The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside indestructible buildings don't belong in 40k.

Cover should confer negative modifier to hit, not increase one's defensive stats.

While I'm at it, it doesn't make sense to check for saves AFTER the wound has been dealt. It should naturally be:
Player 1 hits > Player 2 rolls for saves > Player 2 rolls for wound.

 skchsan wrote:
The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside buildings don't belong in 40k.

Pretty much agree. Placing units inside of buildings is a huge pain. There should be some buildings you should go in - but they should be accessible by enemy units.

Disagree on the cover -1 to hit. The game needs a lot less to hit modifiers.

It's a quickfix solution to something that was an obvious problem at the start of 8th (most ruins aren't just solid blocks so if you don't have a rule like this then there is no LOS blocking whatsoever because you'll inevitably be able to see one model through a window and then the entire army can shoot that unit). It's no surprise that some more issues have come up, but I think just going back to RAW on this would be even worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside buildings don't belong in 40k.

Pretty much agree. Placing units inside of buildings is a huge pain. There should be some buildings you should go in - but they should be accessible by enemy units.

Disagree on the cover -1 to hit. The game needs a lot less to hit modifiers.

Or perhaps the game needs MORE negative hit modifiers, specifically for shooting, as to promote healthier balance of ranged and melee?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's a quickfix solution to something that was an obvious problem at the start of 8th (most ruins aren't just solid blocks so if you don't have a rule like this then there is no LOS blocking whatsoever because you'll inevitably be able to see one model through a window and then the entire army can shoot that unit). It's no surprise that some more issues have come up, but I think just going back to RAW on this would be even worse.

It's not - any unit in a building is gonna have a cover save. Which is a free defensive stat. It reduces the damage you take. That is enough for a game like this.

ITC is house rules anyways.