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I don't understand why I need to explain to you that being completely unable to prevent an opponent from shooting exactly the target they want to shoot is an undesirable game state.

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside buildings don't belong in 40k.

Pretty much agree. Placing units inside of buildings is a huge pain. There should be some buildings you should go in - but they should be accessible by enemy units.

Disagree on the cover -1 to hit. The game needs a lot less to hit modifiers.

Or perhaps the game needs MORE negative hit modifiers, specifically for shooting, as to promote healthier balance of ranged and melee?

Nah man - more negs to hit I'd pretty much quit playing.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't understand why I need to explain to you that being completely unable to prevent an opponent from shooting exactly the target they want to shoot is an undesirable game state.

Theres nothing wrong with LOS blocking. Theres lots wrong with ITC first floor LOS blocking in a game that works off true LOS.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

I prefer the first floor being opaque.

Aggressors are better than everyone says. This game isn't played on a bowling ball, and you can keep them fairly well hidden. Any ability to deep strike them is fantastic.

They just die very easily. Typically not a viable solution. They work for DW, not for anyone else.

Martel732 wrote:
They just die very easily. Typically not a viable solution. They work for DW, not for anyone else.

They work for space wolves and ultramarines. (as well as DW)

How many factions do they have to work for, before we acknowledge they're good?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside buildings don't belong in 40k.

Pretty much agree. Placing units inside of buildings is a huge pain. There should be some buildings you should go in - but they should be accessible by enemy units.

Disagree on the cover -1 to hit. The game needs a lot less to hit modifiers.

Or perhaps the game needs MORE negative hit modifiers, specifically for shooting, as to promote healthier balance of ranged and melee?

Nah man - more negs to hit I'd pretty much quit playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't understand why I need to explain to you that being completely unable to prevent an opponent from shooting exactly the target they want to shoot is an undesirable game state.

Theres nothing wrong with LOS blocking. Theres lots wrong with ITC first floor LOS blocking in a game that works off true LOS.

What if there were certain mechanics implemented to the game where the -hit penalties get reduced depending on the range? Or their status? Surely it would be harder to shoot at a fast moving target than it is to shoot at a stationary target -some sort of element that emphasizes ever-changing nature of a battlefield and not a Napoleonic stand off.

So, for example:
Shooting attacks made against units that advanced previous turn must re-roll successful hits, in return, assault weapons after advancing only hit on roll of 6, modifiable; remove all advance and still act normal stratagems.
All attacks, shooting and melee, always hit on natural 6's.
Terrains for the most part do not block LOS, but provide -1 to hit unless target is within 12"
Non-LOSing terrain can be charged through, albeit with -charge distance. aka, old difficult terrain.
Get rid of CT equivalent -hit bonuses.
Flyers naturally have -2 to hit, increase cost, provide easily accessible AA weapons, or provide enough emphasis on FLY keyword that a TAC list always includes a AA option.
Fine tune stratagems and focus it being more reactive than preemptive - we already have this from psychic phase. (i.e. act out of turn strats over this unit rerolls this strat, healing based strats dont magically heal units (i.e. jury rigging) but improve the healing unit's ability for the turn - can fix two vehicles instead of one, always successfully heals, heals 3 instead of 1d3, etc)
Add more universal stratagems - make a stratagem that allows you to shoot/move out of turn.

etc etc

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They just die very easily. Typically not a viable solution. They work for DW, not for anyone else.

They work for space wolves and ultramarines. (as well as DW)

How many factions do they have to work for, before we acknowledge they're good?

Honestly they don't work for Ultramarines either. They're so expensive per wound you're not gonna be able to fall back and shoot. They'll be dead!

They were okay as Raven Guard. That stopped after everyone wanted to nerf Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Stygies for no good reason.
Space Wolves I'll grant of course.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 10 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's always weird to me how people want to pretend HQ buffs don't exist. Who are these people making their lists out of three auxiliary support detachments so there aren't any aura buffs in their army?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's always weird to me how people want to pretend HQ buffs don't exist. Who are these people making their lists out of three auxiliary support detachments so there aren't any aura buffs in their army?

Because its another ~200 points and requires them to be within 6" which severely limits where you can be.
Especially if you assume most of your army is inside that 6" bubble.

Especially with Agressors limit range.
Which also means your not double shooting if your going first (and likely dead if going second)

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's always weird to me how people want to pretend HQ buffs don't exist. Who are these people making their lists out of three auxiliary support detachments so there aren't any aura buffs in their army?

Well some armies don't have them, or have them on units that are dead end of turn 1.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They just die very easily. Typically not a viable solution. They work for DW, not for anyone else.

They work for space wolves and ultramarines. (as well as DW)

How many factions do they have to work for, before we acknowledge they're good?

I disagree with that assessment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

I mean...if we are talking about how the unit actually works - they are never not going to be buffed. It will be Gman or CM lt. combo at the min.

I play a list that is tripple repulsor with all las cannons. 14 agressors calgar and a LT an ancient and some scouts. It's just hilarious how many infantry I can kill with that build in 1 turn. It's really effective at killing everything though - it just can't take damage.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's always weird to me how people want to pretend HQ buffs don't exist. Who are these people making their lists out of three auxiliary support detachments so there aren't any aura buffs in their army?

The marine characters are very expensive so you cant hit most of your units without a castle. Which loses, because castle.

Problem with the re-roll guys is they can't get good enough shooting to make babysitting a unit for re-rolls worth it. That Lt and Captain are 150ish points and the best shooting weapon they can be armed with is a what combi-plas? storm bolter?

You end up paying a premium for CqC stats and access to good CqC weapons on a unit that you really want buffing a unit that doesn't want to get into close combat.

I guess you can charge once the aggressors are dead but it just doesn't offer the synergy that one would hope for. If that captain and LT babysitting a shooting unit could be given a gun that was worth a damn and not overcosted then they wouldn't feel like so much of a tax. But based on their stats they really want to be in the fray with a storm shield and thunder hammer not sitting back holding hands with some aggressors plinking away with a 2 shot storm bolter.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They just die very easily. Typically not a viable solution. They work for DW, not for anyone else.

They work for space wolves and ultramarines. (as well as DW)

How many factions do they have to work for, before we acknowledge they're good?

I disagree with that assessment.

With magic bunkers - it can totally work. I'm starting to see how ITC really works. It's a completely different game. Armies don't engage - they creep around in their deployment zone. Defensive stats don't really matter when you can't be shot at but can shoot out of a building. It's kind of a joke really.

Aggressors need los. Not happening.

bananathug wrote:
Problem with the re-roll guys is they can't get good enough shooting to make babysitting a unit for re-rolls worth it. That Lt and Captain are 150ish points and the best shooting weapon they can be armed with is a what combi-plas? storm bolter?

You end up paying a premium for CqC stats and access to good CqC weapons on a unit that you really want buffing a unit that doesn't want to get into close combat.

I guess you can charge once the aggressors are dead but it just doesn't offer the synergy that one would hope for. If that captain and LT babysitting a shooting unit could be given a gun that was worth a damn and not overcosted then they wouldn't feel like so much of a tax. But based on their stats they really want to be in the fray with a storm shield and thunder hammer not sitting back holding hands with some aggressors plinking away with a 2 shot storm bolter.

The easy solution is to have everything in the bubble - and ignore objectives you can't reach without losing your aura or you can't move away from into the aura next turn. If you can reasonably get into the middle of their army in 3 turns and they don't try to wipe you out - you'll cut them in half and they'll end up losing to space marines. Or if they are coming to you...all the better. Marines are all about concentrated force.


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Martel732 wrote:
Aggressors need los. Not happening.

You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right? I mean...you can see out but not in right?

The problem with Aggressors is that someone turns up with a ravager (other platforms/similar weapons are available) and ruins your day.

7 hits with the Archon (who I have to take and doesn't have much else thats better to babysit), 3.5 wounds, 5/6 saves, so good chance of 3 dead. Which nets me almost a 90%~ return on the Ravagers cost. I will have 3 ravagers - I have a good chance of eating your aggressors and your buffing characters in one pass.

Now sure I expect Dissie Ravagers to go to 140-155 in CA - but I think they would still be a meta relevant hard counter to the unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


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2nd floor is where at.

Martel732 wrote:
155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd floor is where at.

I going to get merked at LVO lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

I'm gonna get merked at LVO.

Wow. Eldar all over the top, no surprises there, it only 1 Tyranids list. Without any real care, GWs sneaky way of nerfing Tyranids against Eldar really seems to have paid off.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd floor is where at.

I going to get merked at LVO lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

I'm gonna get merked at LVO.

If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's only fair to include them into the cost of it all. If you want your full rerolls, include them in the cost for your 5 Aggressors.

Xenomancer, if your going to complain about something atleast make sure you understand the situation first.