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My gaming group was talking about this. My thought is that GW will stop printing new copies once the last Codex hits. After all, the Indexes were meant as a stop gap until every Codex was released. Others in my group think they'll stick around until 9th Edition hits. Still others think they'll stick around more or less forever and all of the Index only units will show up in future editions as well.

Thoughts?

If they're going to do it, probably around the time the last Codex drops. Maybe they'll wait until the next big FAQ or CA after that book before making the decision. If it does happen I'd love them to update their model range for some armies to take into account things that were lost and add them back in somehow. I think removing the confusing situation of having access to, for example, 2 different Autarchs is a good thing. I hate the idea of losing something like a Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack just because GW don't make the model any more.

I can't see them removing indexes..

maybe not updating them ever..

maybe even making them open/narrative only (like the Custom Land Raider rules)

but there's a fair amount of old models around that we'd lose access to.

alternatively .. it could go to White Dwarf to keep releasing "INDEX - LEGACY" where you find all the old stuff for open games only in one index rather than several

They're here for awhile. 9th edition is unlikely to be a reset like 8th was, so the existing Codexes and Indexes will probably continue to usable with the main game rules for the next decade.

If the Indexes go out-of-print, I can see ITC and other tournament organizers banning them from their events though to keep a level playing field. Maybe they'll drop out of Matched Play too at that point - things like the missile launcher sniper Autarch show it can be difficult to balance new books with 30 years of accumulated options.

Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.

I imagine they will be printing them up to right before the release of 9th edition. there are plenty of legacy models in the indexes that were not put in the codexes because GW no longer makes the model. people are coming back to the hobby all the time and will want to use thier older models as more than counts as.

example there is no longer a big mek with kff in the codex or big mek with kff on the bike. I have both, and plan to keep using both when i pick up my codex saturday so i will need to keep the index around.

I don't think they will get rid of them either. They might make most options barely viable though.

Not sure if the Imperial Armour units are in the codexes, so that one might stick around indefinitely. I would expect that once the codexes all supercede the indexes the redundant indexes will be finished with.

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.

Well, you can just stop using the index-only options right now if that's what you want.


I really hope the options in these books will not go away permanently. If they want to keep the main codices containing only stuff currently in production, maybe they could just put all the legacy options in FW books or something. There could be a codex for each army, which has the stuff GW currently sells, and an separate appendix book for each army which has all the legacy stuff and FW units and possibly other esoteric things like looted wagons for Orks. Then newbies won't be confused by them but more dedicated hobbyists can still use them.

I don't think they're going anywhere personally.

They need a way to publish legacy rules. I think we'll actually see more units pushed to Index in the next wave. Tacticals for example.

I'm also not convinced we'll see an Inquisition/Assassins codex this edition, so those sorts of units still need rules.

 Stux wrote:
I don't think they're going anywhere personally.

They need a way to publish legacy rules. I think we'll actually see more units pushed to Index in the next wave. Tacticals for example.

I'm also not convinced we'll see an Inquisition/Assassins codex this edition, so those sorts of units still need rules.

An Imperial Agents Codex could easily cover Inquisition/Assassins/LotD/etc.

There's afew options open to GW

1) Remove indexes once all factions have a codex. By this stage no army range will even have an index linked on its store tab, nor will GW stores be stocking them on the shelves. So already they will be softly removed. AT that point GW can formally end their production.

2) Soft removal. As said above GW will already have soft removed them once every army has a codex. At that point they can just retire the product from active selling, but keep them around as a legacy. AT that point I'd expect them to vanish if/when a 9th edition is released or just soon after.

3) Replacement. We don't fully know GW's plan for a 9th edition release. They could release Index at launch and go from there, however I'd wager that as every army will have an up to date 8th edition codex, GW might slip back to just rolling out replacement Codex over time (another year of codex releases). Ergo the codex you have now would turn into the next editions "index" content and then you'd get a new 9th edition at some stage.

4) Remove, but release a legacy rule book that contains all the index contents for index only models. Could be a neat way to tidy it up without removing them and giving them aviable and simple to use product. This way there's less confusion as the index would only list legacy models.
That said it would go against GW's current policy of producing models for everything they print rules for.
That said they've done this legacy approach for AoS, however that is a slightly different product.

In general I see index like old base sizes. IT will stick around for a while and GW will market and "let you use" it in games. However after a while it will vanish and the player scene (esp competitive) will push them out and force people to "modernize" their army.
Remembering that many of the index only models could return in the future in some form, so its not as if losing the index totally removes the idea for the model. Champions (or whatever) on space marine bikes could return; Shrikes for Tyranids could fly back (new model or just new warrior kit with wings)

Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I don't think they're going anywhere personally.

They need a way to publish legacy rules. I think we'll actually see more units pushed to Index in the next wave. Tacticals for example.

I'm also not convinced we'll see an Inquisition/Assassins codex this edition, so those sorts of units still need rules.

An Imperial Agents Codex could easily cover Inquisition/Assassins/LotD/etc.

Sure it COULD. But will it? This edition? Or will they decide the Indexes have it covered?

We just don't know. They could easily decide it's time for Marines 2.0, Chaos 2.0, Eldar 2.0 and so on before they got around to it.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.

True, but the whole point is that they no longer sell these models. Hard to factor greed into something you don't sell.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.

Except that GW doesn't make any more money off legacy models at all.
All those high priced ebay old models are not making a single £ for GW any more, so GW doesn't have to keep the Index around for them. I see the index as a smoothing over transition, esp as GW has pushed for codex that have the full model range on the shelf for sale. In the past GW was happy for models and upgrades to never appear or take years to appear - with the 3rd parties being able to supply the market now (and reach them through the net) GW has no interest in that money going to other companies.
Hence why they've wholesale shifted their practice. Give it a few years and many new fans won't even think of getting legacy models or such - they will be codex only gamers and that's likely the official direction that GW will head things in.

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.

Except that GW doesn't make any more money off legacy models at all.
All those high priced ebay old models are not making a single £ for GW any more, so GW doesn't have to keep the Index around for them. I see the index as a smoothing over transition, esp as GW has pushed for codex that have the full model range on the shelf for sale. In the past GW was happy for models and upgrades to never appear or take years to appear - with the 3rd parties being able to supply the market now (and reach them through the net) GW has no interest in that money going to other companies.
Hence why they've wholesale shifted their practice. Give it a few years and many new fans won't even think of getting legacy models or such - they will be codex only gamers and that's likely the official direction that GW will head things in.

Many players are already Codex only. I'm lucky in that I mainly play Necrons and they didn't have many options to begin with, so not much changed for me. BUT... I'd be very hesitant to build a new Index only model, knowing that it's likely to go unsupported at some time in the future.

 Kriswall wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Since there is a crap ton of legacy models in the index and faq states that these legacy models uses the last printed rules, aka index, they wont go away for a loooooooooooooong time.

Unless they update the FAQ? FAQs/Erratas can and sometimes do change.

One thing isn't changing in a hurry though. GW's greed.

True, but the whole point is that they no longer sell these models. Hard to factor greed into something you don't sell.

They sell book though. Why settle for selling 1 book to players when you can sell 2(well 3 and soon maybe 4 with CA's. Oh and more if he plays multiple factions like in Imperial soup)

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.

There are armies with options removed that can only use indices (indexes?) as reference.

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.

Just do what I did and cut out the pages you need and slip them into your Codex. I don't use Ynnari at all, so all I needed was the Autarch options for my CWE. I just cut out those pages and put them in my Codex.
As far as I am concerned, Index: Xenos 1 is already obsolete.

As others have said, GW will likely stop printing and selling the Indexes once every single Faction has been updated. I think it's telling that GW has SPECIFICALLY left 1-2 Factions un-updated per Index. It feels like they are building up to a single set of releases that will update all remaining Factions and "quietly" just ignore that the Indexes exist.

I highly doubt there will be a dramatic change after this. The Designer's Note errata will still be available for those wishing to use Index-only options.
The Indexes will not truly disappear until 9th edition, which is hopefully very, VERY far away with the new method GW is using to update rules (a la FAQs/Erratas and Chapter Approved)

-

Most likely it's going to be merged with Chapter Approved at least for the purpose of covering legal "conversions" like terminus ultra, characters on bike, etc.

By taking the stance of "if there's no official model, then you can't use it", it goes against the very crux of what this hobby was originally founded upon. At least, I hope they don't.

Are they still printing them? I figured any indexes are extra stock they still had at this point.

I wouldn’t be against them doing another round, TBH, with incorporated errata and points revisions. I bought all the indexes to cover the 8+ armies I have and all of two Codexes (one was a birthday gift, the other was the Knight codex). I’d be more inclined to buy another round of indexes than sink any money into Codexes.

This post seems to show that it is already about to begin with the discontinuing of Xenos and Imperium 1:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5280/762091.page#10208594

I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.

If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.

If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.

If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.

it's easy to suggest that keeping rules for everything makes the most people happy, but it also leads to more difficulty balancing rules. I think that realizing that some models are going to be sidelined is part of the long term health of the game.

 Polonius wrote:
I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.

If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.

If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.

If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.

it's easy to suggest that keeping rules for everything makes the most people happy, but it also leads to more difficulty balancing rules. I think that realizing that some models are going to be sidelined is part of the long term health of the game.

It's one thing to provide rules for models that can be easily kitbashed, another for providing entries that NEEDS to be bought 3rd party (droppod prior to plast-kit, sporocyst, doom of malantai, to name some).

 Polonius wrote:
I feel like GW is really in a no-win situation with the indices.
If they simply remove all rules for old models, people will be upset that they can't play with them.
If they keep making rules, but no models, people will be upset that they cannot buy models for their rules.
If they keep the rules for current models in one place, and rules for older and FW models in a separate place, people are upset that they need multiple sources for rules.

The problem with #2 wasn't that people were upset with the lack of models, it was that people other than GW were making money selling them. Hence the switch to the no model=no rules policy.

But you already need a separate book for FW units, so if the index leftovers got combined in that, it would be one book less than now.

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully soon. I'm tired of referencing them already.

Why would you support GW making models invalid? If your referencing them that implies you own or use something that is index only?