Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think people are right about Matched Play eventually banning Index units as some of them are no longer available and it would create potential friction between new players and old and encourage recasters to create copies of out of print units.

For those thinking that GW would be mad to do this I would love to remind you that they more or less did this with Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar.

 Overread wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect 9th edition to say something like "index units cannot be used in matched play, if you want them in open/narrative go nuts" and be done with it.

As I get older I lose sympathy for this approach of "I built this model in 2005 and I should be able to use it!!!" This doesn't apply to almost any other activity you would approach in life.

What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Yes but eventually it has to go away.
Heck consider that each YEAR Magic the Gathering basically invalidates most of the cards you bought last year (and all of them from previous years) if you want to keep up to the current standard edition (without going for their unlimited which is mostly full of very specific choice overpowered cards from various editions). And most people seem to love MTG.

Warhammer you will see things become invalid, its happened for years. It's one reason Tyranid players are big on using magnets because many have had specifi weapon combos go invalid or vanish over the years.

Plus many things go away but come back again later, either directly or indirectly. The "Doom" Zoanthrope for Tyranids is gone, but many now use their Doom as a Neurothrope.

I wouldn't say it "has" to go away. Its not as if every model has a use by date.
Sometimes I get the reasons why. One of my favorite models are Pariahs, and they don't exist anymore because they don't fit in the fluff anymore. I don't like it, but I can understand they wanted to in another direction. Lychguard are supposed to be their "spiritual" successor. I get that. I don't like it, but I get it.
But dropping things like the big Mek? Or Mega Armored Warbosses? That doesn't make sense. There was no good reason for that, other than GW being butthurt that the lost the chapterhouse case.

So what if MTG invalidates cards every year? I don't play MTG, and if GW pulled that crap and tried telling me that I can't use my entire collection that I painted and built myself over the years because its too old for their liking, then I'll go find another company that's not run by greedy witches.

Tyel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.

I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.

One could argue that it's not an healthy way to handle items in general, especially for the planet, but we would digress.
Besides...there is a matter of dedication to the army from GW's part, too. Some model, even merely because of the fluff, should exist (see the MA Warboss - how comes nobz can afford the MA but the Warboss does not have this option?). We witness Primaris Lieutenant nr 65 being advertised, and basic models for other armies are neglected.
Above anything else, it's unfair.

Welcome to being at the whim of a single corporation.

Historically GW has been super good at providing support for older models. Their attitude only changed with AOS.

 Overread wrote:

Yes but eventually it has to go away.

Why? Why you used that "has"?

Maybe because even they are overwhelmed at this point? Or they just felt like it. Doesn't really matter does it?

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe because even they are overwhelmed at this point? Or they just felt like it. Doesn't really matter does it?

I take the opposite opinion, the game has never been better than now with how many options are supported and GW digging further into the fluff to have more and more factions. If someone wants to break the game they'll do it whether we have 50 options or 5000. The hobby as a whole is healthier when it supports options, converstions and legacy. 40k's biggest strength is it's history and seeing older minis pop up brings me joy. Having models (expire) for lack of a better term is a terrible idea.

I fully understand Tournaments banning Index units as games go on (less material for them to have on hand to check, etc.).

Regarding the no-model-no-rules thing...it's the worst decision GW has made, and will impact the game heavily as the years go on. Right now, everyone more or less has the benefit of older kits, and the datasheet reflects this. As kits are slowly weened off production, we'll see less and less, and it's a super gak decision in my opinion. I wouldn't even start a Primaris force based solely on the garbage character options and lack of datasheet options therein. I don't think the full impact will be felt for some time though.

40K's biggest strength is unreasonably loyal fan boys. The next biggest strength is having no real competition.

Tyel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.

I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.

*Glances at my NES Classic*. You might want to reword that, there’s even a few folks that collect the old, original hardware and such.

There’s nothing wrong with GW still giving support to their older models for those people who’d still like to use their collections. Likewise, the indexes support those people (like me) who are fine with a simpler level of the game and don’t want to buy into the dubious expanded content that a codex

 Elbows wrote:
I fully understand Tournaments banning Index units as games go on (less material for them to have on hand to check, etc.).

Regarding the no-model-no-rules thing...it's the worst decision GW has made, and will impact the game heavily as the years go on. Right now, everyone more or less has the benefit of older kits, and the datasheet reflects this. As kits are slowly weened off production, we'll see less and less, and it's a super gak decision in my opinion. I wouldn't even start a Primaris force based solely on the garbage character options and lack of datasheet options therein. I don't think the full impact will be felt for some time though.

Unless you play orks. In that case I hope you're ready to proxy your Big Mek as a Mekboy or that your opponent is ok with him wearing invisible mega armor.
Or proxying the Mega Warboss as a deffdred.

 Stormonu wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if you bought it? Its a GW model. There has to be some use for it.
The Big Mek model isn't even all that old. Its like, 3 editions old.

Why? Things decay.
If I bought a 15 year old computer it wouldn't do me much good. If I bought a 15 year old cinema ticket it would be completely useless. A 15 year old set of trainers probably wouldn't get me very far.

I don't see why an item - which I may or may not have bought from GW or instead after 10 people traded it across ebay - should still be viable a generation after it was initially released. Nothing else on earth works this way.

*Glances at my NES Classic*. You might want to reword that, there’s even a few folks that collect the old, original hardware and such.

There’s nothing wrong with GW still giving support to their older models for those people who’d still like to use their collections. Likewise, the indexes support those people (like me) who are fine with a simpler level of the game and don’t want to buy into the dubious expanded content that a codex

Comparing a model to electronics is kinda an uneven comparison. It say it's closer to a watch or a good set of tools. If you take care of it, it'll last you a life time.

I don't think modern rules systems should have to support said models, however. In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.

My models are built and glued based on Index WYSIWYG. Dark Eldar didn't have a codex for many moons, so my blaster Archons are WYSIWYG.

Obviously if the rules change i have to suck it up, but that would be super lame.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think modern rules systems should have to support said models, however. In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.

In what way. As far as i'm aware none of the index options are game breaking or otherwise over powered. Not everyone plays the game to the nth level of competitive. Your essentially adovocating that GW squat 50 to 70 percent of it's models and rules going by your 200 comment to theoretically achieve balance. That would gore a large part of what makes this hobby, well a hobby. Painting, converting, kit bashing, etc would take a massive hit if GW purged most of it's lines.

They are not dragging the game down. That's just absurd. Rough Riders are not a problem unit!

Martel732 wrote:
40K's biggest strength is unreasonably loyal fan boys. The next biggest strength is having no real competition.

Their biggest Strength is the diversity and wide appeal of the sculpts. You have companies that have arguably better sculpts, but a less diverse range. Or the other way around. I'd argue none has both, and such range AND support from the company. PLUS the model part has still a huge role, because you can have "your" army in reasonable terms and still play the game with "count as".
Problem is, after Chapterhouse (because come on, that was the tipping point) we end up more and more with a game like Warmachine somehow, option-wise.

Sculpts for sure. And, if you play with well adjusted people, there's the understanding that at the end of the day this is a casual game, and you can make all the right decisions, moves, choices, etc, and still lose. because dice.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think modern rules systems should have to support said models, however. In fact, they are dragging the rest of the game down.

In what way. As far as i'm aware none of the index options are game breaking or otherwise over powered. Not everyone plays the game to the nth level of competitive. Your essentially adovocating that GW squat 50 to 70 percent of it's models and rules going by your 200 comment to theoretically achieve balance. That would gore a large part of what makes this hobby, well a hobby. Painting, converting, kit bashing, etc would take a massive hit if GW purged most of it's lines.

That's why I limit my expectations to the indices. Marines need 75% of the models trashcanned until they get to a number GW can actually handle.

It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.

 Crimson wrote:
It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.

Yeah, that hurts, too. But so many superfluous and overlapping and frankly pointless units. It distracts from the core problems, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really not the number of units which is the problem. For example a big issue for marines is that their statline sucks and it will suck whether there are three or three hundred units using that statline.

Yeah, that hurts, too. But so many superfluous and overlapping and frankly pointless units. It distracts from the core problems, imo.

Some of those units are not superfluous for people. The riders had their use in different editions, had FW sculpts or their equivalent (if you use Kriegs as normal guard), and appeal to collectors that looked for an army that winked at historicals.
You are forcing everything into a very narrow point of view.

Their inability to do math is the limiting factor.

I'm talking about marines, which has the most useless entries and kits.

Too many false choices in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Their inability to do math is the limiting factor.

I'm talking about marines, which has the most useless entries and kits.

Yes Marines are in a bad spot. Deleting options doesn't fix that, it just pisses off players and invalidates peoples existing collection. It also is harmful to the hobby as a whole, as it give you less to play around with for modeling.

Most of those entries you claim are useless are things many players still use. many game groups don't play WAAC and variety is a good thing.

Deleting the options would help bring clarity to the situation.

Anyway, only the "index-only" options are at risk. Far too few, really.

I suspect that indexes units are on life support - probably little support/updates for them will be provided. I imagine they'll be axed by next edition (whenever that is), which is sad, because there's a lot of units that will get shelved.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I suspect that indexes units are on life support - probably little support/updates for them will be provided.

I'm not expecting ANY support or updates, unless something pops up and is breaking the meta. I don't think that'll happen at this point, though.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Yes but eventually it has to go away.

Why? Why you used that "has"?

Because it creates confusion and splits the core community and marketing. GW has to balance the line between those who have been playing since they were released and people who start playing tomorrow. Legacy rules tend to last for a while and let those with old collections keep using favoured models, plus (as highlighted in my earlier example) GW often releases something new that an old model can be used as a counts-as/proxy without any issue.

Index makes for a messy thing that can confuse some new people; whilst having all the models you need on the shelf and the codex makes it super easy to get into. Yes the Index was a great idea at the launch of 8th edition, but right now its not the best thing for the long term approach.


Like I said i fully expect the Index to go away and for GW to likely re-release some old ideas with new models and new ideas. So there is every chance that those old models will see see use on the tabletop. It's just part of the evolution of the game and its always been there; its just that we are at a turning point where GW isn't showing its hand on what is to come by having items in the codex that are not made by them right now. This is in result of them losing the Chapterhouse court case and being unable to shut down other manufacturers making similar models (which is a serious concern for GW which almost only they have to suffer with in the market*


*Although I've heard that some smaller studios are also suffering from the even worse situation of recasters copy-catting their work. Esp those who are making larger, more expensive, models

If you include books like Index: Forces of Chaos I don't think they'll go away any time soon. They include many options that are not simple 'legacy' choices, including the Daemon Lords and the entire Renegade and Heretics list and others that have never appeared in a codex.

So while I appreciate that it's just super, super onerous for one or two of you to have to check a page in another book every once in a while, without the Indexes some of us have entirely invalid armies or $300 blocks of entirely useless resin.