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 Blndmage wrote:
Is the standing rule that if there are two actions that take place at the same time, te controlling player determines the order? Thus if you're the controlling player, you can choose to place the disembarked models, then use Loot It?

We've already covered this, the two actions are not happening at the same time.

If destroyed is a time frame, I hope you are rolling for your disembarked troops to suffer from the explosion. The strategem says "when a Vehicle is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit", so when is a vehicle destroyed? The BRB states that when a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, so the time is explicit.
RAW you can't loot the vehicle unless FAQd.

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

 bullyboy wrote:
If destroyed is a time frame, I hope you are rolling for your disembarked troops to suffer from the explosion. The strategem says "when a Vehicle is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit", so when is a vehicle destroyed? The BRB states that when a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, so the time is explicit.
RAW you can't loot the vehicle unless FAQd.

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

As a result of the FAQ BaconCatBug posted we are told that the embarked unit is not on the board at the time you resolve Explodes results against nearby units. We're then told to immediately disembark the unit, at which time the previously embarked unit is on the board and measurably within 3" of the destroyed transport as required by the stratagem. The transport is still destroyed because it's been reduced to zero wounds but it is also still on the board.

xlDuke wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
If destroyed is a time frame, I hope you are rolling for your disembarked troops to suffer from the explosion. The strategem says "when a Vehicle is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit", so when is a vehicle destroyed? The BRB states that when a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, so the time is explicit.
RAW you can't loot the vehicle unless FAQd.

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

As a result of the FAQ BaconCatBug posted we are told that the embarked unit is not on the board at the time you resolve Explodes results against nearby units. We're then told to immediately disembark the unit, at which time the previously embarked unit is on the board and measurably within 3" of the destroyed transport as required by the stratagem. The transport is still destroyed because it's been reduced to zero wounds but it is also still on the board.

It doesn't matter that the transport is on the board, you use the stratagem at the moment the transport is destroyed. Once the unit disembarks it's too late to use the stratagem.

I daresay there is an argument to say that the vehicle is destroyed for as long as it is both on the board and has 0 wounds. The problem really is that "destroyed" can both mean the action of destroying it and the fact that it has been destroyed.

Technically a trukk is destroyed for the rest of the game, but it doesn't affect anything because the model is removed. so as long as the model is on the board, it can both be within 3" and destroyed.

I think that big guns/mek guns next to lootas will be a good way to take advantage of this stratagem...

In matters in that to measure the distance between two units they must both (presumably) be on the board and that when we do measure the transport is both considered destroyed and also within 3" of the previously embarked unit. I agree that we can interpret this your way but I'm saying that it can also be interpreted this way.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
If destroyed is a time frame, I hope you are rolling for your disembarked troops to suffer from the explosion. The strategem says "when a Vehicle is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit", so when is a vehicle destroyed? The BRB states that when a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, so the time is explicit.
RAW you can't loot the vehicle unless FAQd.

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

As a result of the FAQ BaconCatBug posted we are told that the embarked unit is not on the board at the time you resolve Explodes results against nearby units. We're then told to immediately disembark the unit, at which time the previously embarked unit is on the board and measurably within 3" of the destroyed transport as required by the stratagem. The transport is still destroyed because it's been reduced to zero wounds but it is also still on the board.

It doesn't matter that the transport is on the board, you use the stratagem at the moment the transport is destroyed. Once the unit disembarks it's too late to use the stratagem.

This is the crux of the argument. You're interpreting destroyed as a verb/action. The flip side is destroyed is a status. Model has 1 wound. Game continues as normal. Model has 0 wounds, it now switches to destroyed status. So, now we have a model on the table with 0 wounds and is destroyed. Any stratagems to interrupt the process? nope? ok. remove it from play.

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
If destroyed is a time frame, I hope you are rolling for your disembarked troops to suffer from the explosion. The strategem says "when a Vehicle is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit", so when is a vehicle destroyed? The BRB states that when a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, so the time is explicit.
RAW you can't loot the vehicle unless FAQd.

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

As a result of the FAQ BaconCatBug posted we are told that the embarked unit is not on the board at the time you resolve Explodes results against nearby units. We're then told to immediately disembark the unit, at which time the previously embarked unit is on the board and measurably within 3" of the destroyed transport as required by the stratagem. The transport is still destroyed because it's been reduced to zero wounds but it is also still on the board.

It doesn't matter that the transport is on the board, you use the stratagem at the moment the transport is destroyed. Once the unit disembarks it's too late to use the stratagem.

This is the crux of the argument. You're interpreting destroyed as a verb/action. The flip side is destroyed is a status. Model has 1 wound. Game continues as normal. Model has 0 wounds, it now switches to destroyed status. So, now we have a model on the table with 0 wounds and is destroyed. Any stratagems to interrupt the process? nope? ok. remove it from play.

The trouble is the way you are interpreting the wording. If destroyed is a status, the correct wording to allow the vehicle to be looted would be "while a Vehicle is destroyed" but instead it is "when a vehicle is destroyed", it's referring to a specific time. let me throw this at you...

Let's say you are about to jump from a train (just trying to think of a totally hypothetical situation), and your buddy says "we're going to jump when my countdown hits zero", do you jump as soon as he says the zero in this sequence "3,2,1,0"? Or do you wait 5 minutes to jump because technically you're still at zero? It's pretty much the same thing, when wounds hit zero, it's destroyed.

I don't think 'destroyed' is specifically defined in the rules. I've only scanned the primer though.

I think the stratagem wording suggests that it can only be played at the point immediately after it loses its last wound.

The problem is in the primer on pg 9 under transports it says,
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked immediately disembark before the transport model is removed. This suggests that there is a timeframe in which the transport and the models it was carrying exist on the battlefield at the same time.

I think the wording allows for both interpretations.

But destroyed creates the potential for explodes which clearly triggers before you disembark. You couldn't play this strat after the vehicle explodes could you?

Again, "immediately" is not synonymous with "simultaneously". The transport is destroyed, and the unit then disembarks, at which point while the transport is still destroyed, it's too late to use the stratagem.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Again, "immediately" is not synonymous with "simultaneously". The transport is destroyed, and the unit then disembarks, at which point while the transport is still destroyed, it's too late to use the stratagem.

I agree with you on the not synonymous comment but I don't understand the relevance. Are you saying the the word 'when' in the strat is synonymous with the wording 'immediately after' a vehicle is destroyed.

I agree with this. I think the strta can only be played at the instant that the vehicle loses its last wound but before you start the destroyed process. Therefore you could play the strat on a unit within 3" that theoretically could be damaged by the explodes vehicle result and could even be wiped out or remove models leaving the unit now outside of 3"...what happens then?

You play the stratagem "when" the vehicle is destroyed not "after" or "immediately after". That means the stratagem is indeed played simultaneously to the vehicle being destroyed. You check the range only when you use the stratagem, it doesn't matter if the unit somehow ends up out of range by the time the stratagem is resolved because it says "that unit". It's the same as when you fire 10 Bolters and a Lascannon at a unit with only 1 model within 24", and the Lascannon kills the closest model. The Bolters still get to shoot.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You play the stratagem "when" the vehicle is destroyed not "after" or "immediately after". That means the stratagem is indeed played simultaneously to the vehicle being destroyed. You check the range only when you use the stratagem, it doesn't matter if the unit somehow ends up out of range by the time the stratagem is resolved because it says "that unit". It's the same as when you fire 10 Bolters and a Lascannon at a unit with only 1 model within 24", and the Lascannon kills the closest model. The Bolters still get to shoot.

You are assuming destroyed is an action and not a description. It's unclear either way.

If the stratagem said "while", I'd agree with you. It doesn't though, it says "when". You don't say "when" for an extended duration.

 bullyboy wrote:

However, only one dude in my group plays Deathskulls and if he wants to loot his destroyed vehicle, I'm not gonna flinch, he's played nothing but tame lists for so long that I'm happy that he's got one of the better Ork Kulturs.

Just wanted to point out that Loot it! is a strat that can be used by any klan

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If the stratagem said "while", I'd agree with you. It doesn't though, it says "when". You don't say "when" for an extended duration.

You may eat the banana when it is yellow. You may play the stratagem when the vehicle is destroyed. It would mean at the point it becomes yellow/destroyed and anytime after. I have zero dogs in this fight. I was leaning toward no you can't until the batrep stream showed intent. Now I think there's room for both interpretations and would like to see it FAQd.

Random streamers aren't a source of rules. Even GW agrees with me that Rules as Written even if you dislike it is king.

I disagree that there is room for interpretation but it's hopefully going to be FAQed. I actually even sent emails to the FAQ email hoping they include it in the 2 week FAQ. Am I off my meds? Perhaps.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Random streamers aren't a source of rules. Even GW agrees with me that Rules as Written even if you dislike it is king.

I disagree that there is room for interpretation but it's hopefully going to be FAQed. I actually even sent emails to the FAQ email hoping they include it in the 2 week FAQ. Am I off my meds? Perhaps.

Another thing in the streams are index units that don't have kultures in a detachment with codex units that have them giving auras and sharing rules. Waiting to see how that's ruled.

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Random streamers aren't a source of rules. Even GW agrees with me that Rules as Written even if you dislike it is king.

I disagree that there is room for interpretation but it's hopefully going to be FAQed. I actually even sent emails to the FAQ email hoping they include it in the 2 week FAQ. Am I off my meds? Perhaps.

Another thing in the streams are index units that don't have kultures in a detachment with codex units that have them giving auras and sharing rules. Waiting to see how that's ruled.

That's the same with any other index units. Index units benefit from traits because they have the correct keywords to do so. It doesn't matter what book you come from, only the keywords matter. A <CLAN> model is a <CLAN> model regardless of what book it is.

Codex: Orks Page 124 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN> units in ORK Detachments (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same clan.

Same applies to index <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> etc. Units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Random streamers aren't a source of rules. Even GW agrees with me that Rules as Written even if you dislike it is king.

I disagree that there is room for interpretation but it's hopefully going to be FAQed. I actually even sent emails to the FAQ email hoping they include it in the 2 week FAQ. Am I off my meds? Perhaps.

Another thing in the streams are index units that don't have kultures in a detachment with codex units that have them giving auras and sharing rules. Waiting to see how that's ruled.

That's the same with any other index units. Index units benefit from traits because they have the correct keywords to do so. It doesn't matter what book you come from, only the keywords matter. A <CLAN> model is a <CLAN> model regardless of what book it is.

Codex: Orks Page 124 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN> units in ORK Detachments (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same clan.

Same applies to index <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> etc. Units.

Neat.