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 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There is always solid LOS blocking terrain. You can hide them with ease. If you're SW or DW then you don't even need to worry about it.

Shining spears are OP.

Aggressors are good but not OP.

There are shades of grey here in terms of balance.

Let's make a deal, no matter how good Orks become, everyone here will sign a pact saying they'll never use aggressors. Sounds fair?

Why use aggressors when you can just bring more guard

Because aggressors are better shooting, and easier to hide.

Aggressors can enter a building.
Aggressors can fight in melee.

Guardsmen will not stand up to Orks in melee with the codex. Even Catachan guard.

Plenty of other stuff in the guard codex to accompany that battalion your already taking if you need more high volume mid strength shooting. Punisher Russ say hi, if orks are a meta defining codex.
Go on charge that hellhound you know you want too. It's Orky

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There is always solid LOS blocking terrain. You can hide them with ease. If you're SW or DW then you don't even need to worry about it.

Shining spears are OP.

Aggressors are good but not OP.

There are shades of grey here in terms of balance.

Let's make a deal, no matter how good Orks become, everyone here will sign a pact saying they'll never use aggressors. Sounds fair?

Why use aggressors when you can just bring more guard

Because aggressors are better shooting, and easier to hide.

Aggressors can enter a building.
Aggressors can fight in melee.

Guardsmen will not stand up to Orks in melee with the codex. Even Catachan guard.

Neither will aggressors. Get real.

They don't need to, they will vaporize Orks.

You bring Guardsmen not for the shooting, but the possible counter charge with 30+ S4 attacks. Lasguns won't do jack gak to charging Orks.

And like i said, Punisher Russ can't hide in a building. There is immediate and obvious value being able to position yourself on a ruins or terrain obstacle. Remember, you have to be able to place the model to be able to complete a charge. Aggressors standing on a 3" tall object, taking up all of the surface, means they're invincible to Orks, dishing out 60 quality dice a turn. Meanwhile a Punisher Russ gets overrun, and makes the Orks invincible to shooting for a turn.

The <INFANTRY> keyword is superior in a lot of ways.

If you have such a building. Or you draw a non-ork opponent. Dissy cannon plus doom murders all. Universally useful. Aggressors have one good match and 15 bad ones.

Your comparison is a false equivalence.

Martel732 wrote:
If you have such a building. Or you draw a non-ork opponent. Dissy cannon plus doom murders all. Universally useful. Aggressors have one good match and 15 bad ones.

Your comparison is a false equivalence.

Oh i forgot that doom is applied to every unit on the table regardless of position and range. I also forgot that every single list has disintigrator cannons, even ones that aren't Eldar. Dark Angels disintigrator cannons are especially good.

You're just being salty for the sake of it.

If you say so. Eldar soup is saturating every event and my meta. But please continue.

If everythign in your list is getting Doomed all the time, maybe play a list that isn't one unit?

 Xenomancers wrote:


When a shinning spear cost 31 points...How can an agressor be 37?

Shining Spear
M16 W3 B3 S3 T4 W2 A2 3+/4++ Shooting 6" 1 S6 AP4 D2 12" 4 S4 AP0 D1 Melee 2 S3(S6) AP4 D2

Aggressor
M5 W3 B3 S4 T5 W2 A2 3+ Shooting 18" 6 S4 AP0 D1 18" D6 S4 AP0 D1 Melee 2 S8 AP3 D3


So for 6 points aggressors are tougher, worse range (with BF Spears have considerable reach), but more shooting. Their melee is stronger, but they are slow although can run and gun without penalty similar to Spears. Aggressors also have the chance to double tap.

A 4++ certainly adds to Spears, but when you're taking AP0/1 fire it doesn't matter so much. So, is the point that Spears are more immune to Disintegrators rather than being better overall?

3 Aggs take down 3 Spears if they're standing still. If they're run & gun they'll kill one, likely won't lose one to overwatch, and kill the rest.
3 Spears take down 1 Agg in shooting. Aggs might kill one in overwatch and then are finished off in melee.

So Spears pulp Aggs and Aggs pulp Spears. If Aggs had a 4++ they'd be gloating over the Laser Lance a little.

Certainly Spears do a lot more, because 1) they're really fast, 2) they have solid psyhic support, and 3) have access to ynnari / alaitoc. Aggressors with BobbyG will ace 3 Spears without double tap and 6 with.

This is the thing that really bugs me about balance discussions. Spears may go up a bit. Aggs are not going to take a fundamental price cut. Maybe 5 points. Does that change your perspective of them? Of course it won't, because disintegrators are still a thing. Even if disintegrators go up people will take them and they will ace Aggressors, Terminators, or whatever else.

The problem is not that aggressors are terribly costed. It's that it is too easy for some to remove W2 models. Playing Aggressors as area denial with a small footprint and keeping them out of firing lanes is the more prudent approach unless you have a delivery system to get them in a place for maximum pain.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you have such a building. Or you draw a non-ork opponent. Dissy cannon plus doom murders all. Universally useful. Aggressors have one good match and 15 bad ones.

Your comparison is a false equivalence.

Oh i forgot that doom is applied to every unit on the table regardless of position and range. I also forgot that every single list has disintigrator cannons, even ones that aren't Eldar. Dark Angels disintigrator cannons are especially good.

You're just being salty for the sake of it.

Hes talking about options that are good vs everything they face - aggressors are good in like 1 situation (an opponent who can't shoot you and walks into your kill zone - AKA bad lists)

Why would I take agressors over a punisher russ? Or mortars? Or even the inferior wyvern? Or even - standard infantry squads (which are at 0 risk of being 1 shot be specials), or a much more compareable shooting profile and price point of a taroux prime?

There is no reason to take primaris while dissy cannons and butcher cannons exist.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you have such a building. Or you draw a non-ork opponent. Dissy cannon plus doom murders all. Universally useful. Aggressors have one good match and 15 bad ones.

Your comparison is a false equivalence.

Oh i forgot that doom is applied to every unit on the table regardless of position and range. I also forgot that every single list has disintigrator cannons, even ones that aren't Eldar. Dark Angels disintigrator cannons are especially good.

You're just being salty for the sake of it.

Hes talking about options that are good vs everything they face - aggressors are good in like 1 situation (an opponent who can't shoot you and walks into your kill zone - AKA bad lists)

Why would I take agressors over a punisher russ? Or mortars? Or even the inferior wyvern? Or even - standard infantry squads (which are at 0 risk of being 1 shot be specials), or a much more compareable shooting profile and price point of a taroux prime?

Because this game isn't played on paper, there's a map with actual terrain that changes how the game is played.

Aggressors can climb and be immune to assault. They can hide inside buildings if your opponent is going to gun them down.

A punisher russ has much more trouble protecting itself.

Counting on specific terrain is folly. The smart choice is the Russ.

whew

Okay. This thread has gone bonkers.

On a note actually related to soup and not... aggressors?

My idea has always been that detachments should cost CP and that the base CP should be determined based on the point value.

From a fluff point of view, as an army gets more complex it should be harder to efficiently control than otherwise no?

Anyway, it's just an idea I had, feel free to poke about 1000 holes in it cause I missed some obvious flaw.

Did this guy legitimately just say Dark Eldar and Eldar struggle against Tyranids? Lol.

What's the tipping point that you have to get to before you consider that you may not understand this game all that well

 SHUPPET wrote:
Did this guy legitimately just say Dark Eldar and Eldar struggle against Tyranids? Lol.

What's the tipping point that you have to get to before you consider that you may not understand this game all that well

Where? All I could find is that he said marines handle nids badly, or something like that.

It was here:

 Marmatag wrote:


Armies like Dark Eldar & Eldar won't stand up to a true Ork army. They also struggle with GSC and Nids.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Agressors could be great like - if they could go in a land speeder storm.

They have no effective delivery system outside of a Repulsor. Repulsor is just too dang expensive.

So other than a LS-storm, what type of delivery system do you want for them?

I'm not against soups but I hate the fact that some armies become so much better with allies at the point that everyone that wants to field those factions starts bringing a soup.

Faction lock soup CPs would be a great solution. This way you may want the soup for the units, not for creating cheap CPs. You may want guardsmen to add some cheap wounds to the list, not to make use of very powerful stratagems that buff elite units. That's not fair and there's nothing fluffy about that.

This combined to a serious nerf to the AM which has been overpowered since index edition. Even crappy ork boyz got a price hike. Guardsmen should cost more, and also their artillery.

The space elves soup isn't a real problem since both eldar and drukhari can compete on their own. I'm a drukhari player and I haven't even considered to ally something in my army, the codex has already so many limitations since it's divided into three subfactions.

Just make their 2-3 best units a bit more expensive. And maybe a buff to the other underwhelming units in their codexes so people can have more option to choose from without relying on soups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Did this guy legitimately just say Dark Eldar and Eldar struggle against Tyranids? Lol.

Tyranids are solid mid tiers with way more different and competitive options than drukhari that are stuck on the same couple of lists if they want to be top tiers. Not everyone owns lots of coven stuff for example, the 3x3 grotesques that scares everyone here it's not that common.

It is actually true that Tyranids have more competitive options than Drukhari as far as just number of competitive lists is concerned. That being said, the Drukhari lists that people do play are much stronger than any Tyranid list available.

I don't claim to speak for Marmatag, but I assume the idea was that the Nids lists Drukhari struggle against run horde units that don't die efficiently to poison. I... don't know enough about Tyranids to dispute that but my impression is that is an inaccurate representation of the faction since some of the big bugs are quite viable (hive tyrants if nothing else) and those naturally hate poison.

I play both DE and Tyranids competitively.

The standard Kraken Double Battalion cuts up Eldar really bad. You have lots of bodies, which is already tough to deal with, and you're fast enough to negate their speed completely.

Additionally, most of the Tyranid shooting is in the perfect spot to deal with Dark Eldar. Decent volume dakka without AP but mid to high strength. That's a problem for DE. Nothing Eldar stands up to Tyranid melee.

Dark Eldar, while being mobile, have to cluster a bit. Like Marines they depend on buff bubbles to function optimally. This really helps armies like Nids which don't suffer from that and can really attack in a lot of ways.

Eldar in general struggle with volume melee. What good are 10 dark reapers in the face of a ton of 1 wound, invulnerable save bodies screaming across the table? How useful are shining spears when they slam into Hormagants? Blasters and dark lances are wasted on genestealers. Disintigrator cannons can deal some damage, but not really enough, because you'll be wrapping around targets at the latest on turn 2. Don't forget to overrun out behind or inside buildings. (Buildings are the bane of eldar. Hint hint. Every ITC tournament has buildings). Good luck casting doom with 1 dice. Good luck casting word of the lulz with shadow in the warp.

I feel like people in this thread look at Tyranids doing well in ITC and are generally confused. On paper they should lose. And against Knights and Custodes they struggle, but here's the thing, the meta has adapted. My list, and many others, spam haywire like it's going out of style, and that helps armies like Nids be even better. FWIW the opportunity cost of haywire blasters is very high.

ccs wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Agressors could be great like - if they could go in a land speeder storm.

They have no effective delivery system outside of a Repulsor. Repulsor is just too dang expensive.

So other than a LS-storm, what type of delivery system do you want for them?

Reduced cost repulsor / New rhino that can transport primaris / current rhino goes down in points and can transport primaris. Something like that.

Nids are a really solid faction kept in check by the existence of knights.

Don't mistake the fact that tyranids don't always get to the top spots of a tournament with the fact that they are a weak faction. They are not. They don't do well in tournaments because there are a lot of knights there, but if you meet them and you don't have knights, get ready for an hard game.

Marmatag wrote:I play both DE and Tyranids competitively.

The standard Kraken Double Battalion cuts up Eldar really bad. You have lots of bodies, which is already tough to deal with, and you're fast enough to negate their speed completely.

Additionally, most of the Tyranid shooting is in the perfect spot to deal with Dark Eldar. Decent volume dakka without AP but mid to high strength. That's a problem for DE. Nothing Eldar stands up to Tyranid melee.

Dark Eldar, while being mobile, have to cluster a bit. Like Marines they depend on buff bubbles to function optimally. This really helps armies like Nids which don't suffer from that and can really attack in a lot of ways.

Eldar in general struggle with volume melee. What good are 10 dark reapers in the face of a ton of 1 wound, invulnerable save bodies screaming across the table? How useful are shining spears when they slam into Hormagants? Blasters and dark lances are wasted on genestealers. Disintigrator cannons can deal some damage, but not really enough, because you'll be wrapping around targets at the latest on turn 2. Don't forget to overrun out behind or inside buildings. (Buildings are the bane of eldar. Hint hint. Every ITC tournament has buildings). Good luck casting doom with 1 dice. Good luck casting word of the lulz with shadow in the warp.

I feel like people in this thread look at Tyranids doing well in ITC and are generally confused. On paper they should lose. And against Knights and Custodes they struggle, but here's the thing, the meta has adapted. My list, and many others, spam haywire like it's going out of style, and that helps armies like Nids be even better. FWIW the opportunity cost of haywire blasters is very high.

almost everything you just said about DE is wrong. If clustering up is going to get you surrounded and lose you the game, you don't have to do it at all. The cards are in your favor and the buffs are nowhere near that critical. You can absolutely split up to claim more ground as well. That's not a weakness of DE at all lol. Also Your shooting outranges Tyranid by up to double, your units are outspeeding anything other than double moving Stealers, (which your army deals with better than almost any other army) and even your basic rifle wounds Tyrants, Fexes and any other MC on a 4.

CWE is to Tyranids advantage yes, but not Ynnari, and it's largely to do with the fact that the strength lf Eldar lies in that one word.

What's this crap about Harlies I thought we were comparing DE & CWE? If you're throwing in Harlies may as well throw in Ynnari keyword and then it's still a lose for Tyranids, Haywire Bikes and all.

Spoletta wrote:Nids are a really solid faction kept in check by the existence of knights.

Don't mistake the fact that tyranids don't always get to the top spots of a tournament with the fact that they are a weak faction. They are not. They don't do well in tournaments because there are a lot of knights there, but if you meet them and you don't have knights, get ready for an hard game.

Some armies that Tyranids have a worse win rate in tournament against then Knights:

Ynnari, Thousand Sons, Drukhari, Chaos Daemons, Custodes


Knights are just one of a pool of poor match ups for Tyranids, and they are NOT some silver bullet that keeps Bugs down in every tournament. Drukhari is one of the toughest matches on the table for Nids.

There's a rereason this experience is so vastly replicated by even the best players at the game.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Marmatag wrote:I play both DE and Tyranids competitively.

The standard Kraken Double Battalion cuts up Eldar really bad. You have lots of bodies, which is already tough to deal with, and you're fast enough to negate their speed completely.

Additionally, most of the Tyranid shooting is in the perfect spot to deal with Dark Eldar. Decent volume dakka without AP but mid to high strength. That's a problem for DE. Nothing Eldar stands up to Tyranid melee.

Dark Eldar, while being mobile, have to cluster a bit. Like Marines they depend on buff bubbles to function optimally. This really helps armies like Nids which don't suffer from that and can really attack in a lot of ways.

Eldar in general struggle with volume melee. What good are 10 dark reapers in the face of a ton of 1 wound, invulnerable save bodies screaming across the table? How useful are shining spears when they slam into Hormagants? Blasters and dark lances are wasted on genestealers. Disintigrator cannons can deal some damage, but not really enough, because you'll be wrapping around targets at the latest on turn 2. Don't forget to overrun out behind or inside buildings. (Buildings are the bane of eldar. Hint hint. Every ITC tournament has buildings). Good luck casting doom with 1 dice. Good luck casting word of the lulz with shadow in the warp.

I feel like people in this thread look at Tyranids doing well in ITC and are generally confused. On paper they should lose. And against Knights and Custodes they struggle, but here's the thing, the meta has adapted. My list, and many others, spam haywire like it's going out of style, and that helps armies like Nids be even better. FWIW the opportunity cost of haywire blasters is very high.

almost everything you just said about DE is wrong. If clustering up is going to get you surrounded and lose you the game, you don't have to do it at all. The cards are in your favor and the buffs are nowhere near that critical. You can absolutely split up to claim more ground as well. That's not a weakness of DE at all lol. Also Your shooting outranges Tyranid by up to double, your units are outspeeding anything other than double moving Stealers, (which your army deals with better than almost any other army) and even your basic rifle wounds Tyrants, Fexes and any other MC on a 4.

CWE is to Tyranids advantage yes, but not Ynnari, and it's largely to do with the fact that the strength lf Eldar lies in that one word.

What's this crap about Harlies I thought we were comparing DE & CWE? If you're throwing in Harlies may as well throw in Ynnari keyword and then it's still a lose for Tyranids, Haywire Bikes and all.

Spoletta wrote:Nids are a really solid faction kept in check by the existence of knights.

Don't mistake the fact that tyranids don't always get to the top spots of a tournament with the fact that they are a weak faction. They are not. They don't do well in tournaments because there are a lot of knights there, but if you meet them and you don't have knights, get ready for an hard game.

Some armies that Tyranids have a worse win rate in tournament against then Knights:

Ynnari, Thousand Sons, Drukhari, Chaos Daemons, Custodes


Knights are just one of a pool of poor match ups for Tyranids, and they are NOT some silver bullet that keeps Bugs down in every tournament. Drukhari is one of the toughest matches on the table for Nids.

There's a rereason this experience is so vastly replicated by even the best players at the game.

Well, needless to say, I disagree with much of what is being said here.

Maybe it's different in Europe, with open war and maelstrom cards dictating the games more than player skill. luls

Lol maybe. Though it does to me sound like a fundamental misunderstanding of how DE play, even though the rest of your post was mostly accurate

 SHUPPET wrote:
Lol maybe. Though it does to me sound like a fundamental misunderstanding of how DE play, even though the rest of your post was mostly accurate

I've done very well with my DE in the competitive scene, as well as outperforming other DE, so /shrug.

But you are struggling in a match up top players internationally find slanted in your favor so /shrug

 SHUPPET wrote:
But you are struggling in a match up top players internationally find slanted in your favor so /shrug

I'm not struggling, i win that matchup with my Tyranids. /shrug

I haven't drawn Tyranids with DE except one time, and I won. But, when you play the list regularly you know how to counter it. /super shrug

Well it depends on the Drukhari and Tyranids lists mostly. A list that is very competitive in tournament may not be as strong in a regular game with no time limitations and probably no knights lists which seem to scary everyone these days.

My best performing list (and its small variants) has lots of coven stuff and not a single lance for example, just 3-5 blasters as pure anti tank. But tons of dis cannons. That makes it quite strong against tyranids, which are basically played as hordes of bugs in my area, but I also see competitive Drukhari lists with only shooting and tons of lances that are very popular but they will struggle a lot against the Tyranids I usually face.