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the_scotsman wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
11 rokkit kans (around 560pts) on average will kill 2 smasha guns and injure another. If they get 1st turn shooting.

The same amount of points in smasha guns kills around 10 killa kans (and the last one might run!)

Think it's hard to justify that kind of disparity in competitive play. I know the kans win if they get into CC, but that seems unlikely!

You know maybe if you compared two different units and one had all its points in JUST shooting, and the other had points in shooting, melee, and the ability to do stuff like move around the battlefield, I think you'd probably find that in almost all cases the unit that JUST SHOOTS is going to win hands down in a comparison of just shooting.

its kind of like "oh my god equal points of Catachan Basilisks does way more damage vs tanks in shooting than a knight warden does, why are people complaining about how powerful a single knight is?"

Yeah, but they're both anti tank units competing for the role. I'm not saying they're terrible, they do have a niche as a distraction carnifex, but I know I'd rather be facing the guy who ploughed points into kans than smashas in basically any given list. They just do more for the points. I guess I was more making the point that the smashas aren't just better at shooting, they're LUDICROUSLY better at shooting. Like around 3 times the damage depending on target.

TBH their melee is a bit meh even if they do make it into CC, which certainly isn't guaranteed.

the_scotsman wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Why was this thread created by the OP if he didn't plan on keeping the first post updated? This thing is useless to someone just coming on board. I don't have time nor inclination to comb though this whole thread just to mine out the gems.

OP you suck.

Well, do you want to work with us to make a more useful tactica? Seems like most of them have like a "unviable, situational, good, auto-include" ranking for units, relics, stratagems, subfactions and traits.

There's no reason we can't start that discussion collectively and then either make a new OP or try to contact this threads OP.

I think we need some tourney info to back up claims, but there's probably relatively little controversy for most stuff at this point.

I actually ran the 6th Ed. Tactica and would be happy to do it again.

Here is the format I used back in the day if anyone has any suggestions on how it might be improved.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/456724.page

Jidmah usually does it though. I wouldn't be adverse to it if he's not in to it. Either way, yeah, this thread should die.

i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Question for you all: Do you think it's worth sticking with 30 'ard/Skarboyz rather than mobbing up to 40 so you can use Endless Green Tide on them? For 'ard Boyz especially since it's it's only 1 more CP than making 2 units of ard Boyz and it's +15 "extra" models instead of 10.

Of course we do need an FAQ about whether those Boyz keep Skar/Ard Boyz buff to begin with (I think it's cut and dry that they won't keep Warpath or Loot it Buffs though, perhaps? Damn you GW and your sloppy Special Snowflake FAQs).

i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

This a million times over.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.

For me at least the auto hit and having to roll 50% on a 4+ with the traktor kannon is a safer investment.

Edit fail on my part....

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.

For me at least the auto hit and having to roll 50% on a 4+ with the traktor kannon is a safer investment.

Edit fail on my part....

I mean, you can say that, but, tbh...at least looking at averages you'd be kind of wrong.

7+ is 58%, 4+ is 50%. and it's the same number of hits on average.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
I see all of you stating the Mek Guns do not profit from the clan kulture because of the Gretchin keyword. To me that doesn't sound correct.

The text in the codex states: "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit fromany Clan Kultur." The Mek gun entry says: "This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew". Now of course there are the keywords. But these state Gretchin (for the grots) as well as artillery (for the gun). Thus imho this is a mixed unit of Gretchin and arty. Not?

That's a negative. It lists the gretchin keyword for the entire unit.

For contrast, see nobs. The nob entry specifically defines the keywords for ammo runts vs the nobs. Ergo, ammo runts in a nob unit benefit from clan rules, as do the nobs. The mek guns have the gretchin keyword, ergo they do not benefit.

The index Mek Guns were individual units, and so would benefit from Kultur. The Codex Mek Guns have a cludge togethered rule to prevent them getting Kultur instead of just giving the Mek Gunz the Gretchin keyword.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The index Mek Guns were individual units, and so would benefit from Kultur. The Codex Mek Guns have a cludge togethered rule to prevent them getting Kultur instead of just giving the Mek Gunz the Gretchin keyword.

I feel like their rules were also changed to eliminate "super untargetable mega grots" from being a thing.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I just realized that Index Ork units are now somewhat worse because they don't benefit from Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

I wonder if GW will errata the index to give them DDD and/or fix the Big Gunz "issue".

They already gave index units DDD.

Not sure they fixed Big Guns though.

Source? I know they gave Forgeworld units DDD, haven't seen anything about Index.

My mistake - I was thinking about the FW units.

yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

Take 3 Weirdboyz and you're golden. The only issue is the rule of 3.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But that relies on what you mean by "persistent effect". Does a stratagem that alters characteristics and keywords count as a persistent effect? The only example they give is that of an ability, which a stratagem is not. While I personally think that Unstopable Green Tide does indeed turn them back into normal boyz (after some reflection), it's not so clear cut. But that's the problem when you Special Snowflake FAQ, you muddy the waters.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But what is the definition of persistent effects? Is that just one turn buffs, or is it permanent stat changes?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But what is the definition of persistent effects? Is that just one turn buffs, or is it permanent stat changes?

The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

Persistent is not a synonym of Permanent.

and this is one of the many reasons why i only play 40k semi-competitive.
They dont define things right. Thats yet another general term that should be a paragraph in the main rules defining it and there is no such paragraph so its stuck in a gray area.

But An Actual Englishment is correct, theyre being renamed. Per that faq they'd lose Loot It! bonus but not 'Ard Boyz or Skarboyz

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

Persistent is not a synonym of Permanent.

That's nice. Point?

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

crzylgs wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

I'll fourth that. If Jidmah doesn't set up the new thread, I will. I'm a permalurker and love green gits.

crzylgs wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

Requirement followed by very few threadt it seems

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

I liked the kill tank alot more when it was 30% cheaper lol Also really blows that it doenst have a melee weapon.

Garg squig may still be a pretty competitive options considering the two super lobbas, 8 big shootas. thats alot for 400ish points

edit: bummer you cant use ramming speed or advance and charge since its not a vehilce.

Yeah the gargquig is in this weird spot in terms of unit types.

Its not a vehicle, so no mek repairs, speedwaaagh (oh god...thatd be epic), or vehicle strats.
Its also not an infantry (duh) so no painboy stuff, which on one note makes sense (hows a painboy gonna help that massive thing?) but on the other really bugs me since its still a living thing.

Also its 500pts with max bigshootas and 2 lobbas. Thats why i swap a lobba for killkannon, WAAAAY less points for tbh not terribly less dakka. Gargsquig suffers from heavy weapon movement anyway and that thing MUST move (unless i missed a rule somewhere)

Thanks everyone for trusting me with these threads

I'll go with BCB's suggestion of creating a new thread once the FAQ hits, which will hopefully eliminate most of the rules confusion discussions.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

I liked the kill tank alot more when it was 30% cheaper lol Also really blows that it doenst have a melee weapon.

Garg squig may still be a pretty competitive options considering the two super lobbas, 8 big shootas. thats alot for 400ish points

edit: bummer you cant use ramming speed or advance and charge since its not a vehilce.

Does the tank need one? The kill krusha is S8+2 and has 8 attacks with the reinforced ram and does mortals on a 2+ when charging. Combine that with ramming speed for 2d3 mortals plus it can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and its passengers can shoot. To me they are both good options and I will be converting both a garg squig and a killkrusha