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Hey folks!

I had a painful newbie game last night where I played borrowed Tau against IG and we both spent 5 hours getting through 1.5 turns trying to learn how 40k works while being clueless about how either army works. =D A couple take-away questions from our game - things I don't know if we were doing right or not:

Scenario One: Drone assault
A unit of crisis suits with their drone attachments, which...aren't attachments in 8th edition anymore...wants to assault a Leman Russ to keep it from shooting their faces off, but doesn't want to get overwatched by a battle cannon. I had a unit of two drones (a gun drone and a shield drone) that came with the unit declare an assault first - whether they could make it or not - to absorb the overwatch to prevent the chance of an expensive crisis suit having its face melted. Is that working as intended?

Scenario Two: Melta / Fusion
The army list my friend gave me to use had a bunch of fusion blasters on suits in it. Looks like they hit on 3+ or 4+, then at S8 against vehicles that are T8, they wound on 4+. In 5th edition, they had 2D6 to penetrate...now it's a straight up 4+ against T8? I assume that means it'll be 5+ against Knights? That seems really underwhelming. Are we using these right?

Scenario 3: Assaulting
There were a bunch of combination things - manta strike, Strike Fast, Mont'ka, wargear...I can't remember...and a stratagem that made us think that the crisis suits could deep strike within 6" of the commander but 9" away from enemies, then fire and assault. And I think the commander moved, then advanced, then assaulted. Does that sound like something Tau can do, or did I go about how assaulting after a deep strike works all wrong?

From 'Overwatch' (main rulebook page 182):

Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it.

The only way a sacrificial unit can prevent Overwatch on a later unit is to get within 1" of the enemy unit.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Hey folks!

I had a painful newbie game last night where I played borrowed Tau against IG and we both spent 5 hours getting through 1.5 turns trying to learn how 40k works while being clueless about how either army works. =D A couple take-away questions from our game - things I don't know if we were doing right or not:

Scenario One: Drone assault
A unit of crisis suits with their drone attachments, which...aren't attachments in 8th edition anymore...wants to assault a Leman Russ to keep it from shooting their faces off, but doesn't want to get overwatched by a battle cannon. I had a unit of two drones (a gun drone and a shield drone) that came with the unit declare an assault first - whether they could make it or not - to absorb the overwatch to prevent the chance of an expensive crisis suit having its face melted. Is that working as intended?

Scenario Two: Melta / Fusion
The army list my friend gave me to use had a bunch of fusion blasters on suits in it. Looks like they hit on 3+ or 4+, then at S8 against vehicles that are T8, they wound on 4+. In 5th edition, they had 2D6 to penetrate...now it's a straight up 4+ against T8? I assume that means it'll be 5+ against Knights? That seems really underwhelming. Are we using these right?

Scenario 3: Assaulting
There were a bunch of combination things - manta strike, Strike Fast, Mont'ka, wargear...I can't remember...and a stratagem that made us think that the crisis suits could deep strike within 6" of the commander but 9" away from enemies, then fire and assault. And I think the commander moved, then advanced, then assaulted. Does that sound like something Tau can do, or did I go about how assaulting after a deep strike works all wrong?

1) Correct. Drones in 8th after deployment are completely separate units. Would be no different to charging in a unit of Fire Warriors or Kroot to absorb the Overwatch. That being said, they need to survive and get to within 1" to deny any more Overwatch. If the drones fail or get killed, the Leman Russ can fire Overwatch again when the suits charge in.

2) Unless Knights have morphed into Toughness 9 when I wasn't looking, S8 will wound Knights on a 4+. The T7/T8 threshold is where the important stuff happens in 8th. Leman Russes/Land Raiders/Knights are all T8, so Melta wounds them on a 4+. The thing with Melta is that it now rolls 2D6 pick the highest when at half range. Meltas only wound T8 on 4's but when they do they hit EXTREMELY hard. Being able to cause up to 24 wounds with a Tau Commander that hit on 2's is devastating. Normal Crisis suits aren't that good however. Remember it's not a linear scale anymore for SvT, S8 will wound T4 and under on 2's, T5-7 on 3s, T8 on 4's and T9-15 on 5's, and T16 on 6's.

3) There are (usually) no restrictions anymore on charging after a "Deep Strike" (although they cannot move other than a charge move/pile in/consolidate for any reason), if there is the rule will say so (e.g. Mawlocks). Generally though because you need to roll a 9 for the charge, it's not all that reliable. The Commander shouldn't have been able to charge after advancing, I don't think T'au have anything that allows them to do that. Mont’ka allows units to advance and shoot, but not charge.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Hey folks!

I had a painful newbie game last night where I played borrowed Tau against IG and we both spent 5 hours getting through 1.5 turns trying to learn how 40k works while being clueless about how either army works. =D A couple take-away questions from our game - things I don't know if we were doing right or not:

Scenario One: Drone assault
A unit of crisis suits with their drone attachments, which...aren't attachments in 8th edition anymore...wants to assault a Leman Russ to keep it from shooting their faces off, but doesn't want to get overwatched by a battle cannon. I had a unit of two drones (a gun drone and a shield drone) that came with the unit declare an assault first - whether they could make it or not - to absorb the overwatch to prevent the chance of an expensive crisis suit having its face melted. Is that working as intended?

They have to be within 12 inches to declare a charge. If they do not make the charge distance the target unit is free to fire overwatch at any subsequent units that declare a charge.

Scenario Two: Melta / Fusion
The army list my friend gave me to use had a bunch of fusion blasters on suits in it. Looks like they hit on 3+ or 4+, then at S8 against vehicles that are T8, they wound on 4+. In 5th edition, they had 2D6 to penetrate...now it's a straight up 4+ against T8? I assume that means it'll be 5+ against Knights? That seems really underwhelming. Are we using these right?

Usually, what used to be melta weapons, now roll an extra die for damage and take the best one. I assume Fusion blasters work the same way.

So yes, one roll to wound, if they are STR 8 against a T of 8 you have 1 roll at a 4+ and if you wound an it is not saved you roll damage (You roll twice and take the best if you are within 1/2 range).

Scenario 3: Assaulting
There were a bunch of combination things - manta strike, Strike Fast, Mont'ka, wargear...I can't remember...and a stratagem that made us think that the crisis suits could deep strike within 6" of the commander but 9" away from enemies, then fire and assault. And I think the commander moved, then advanced, then assaulted. Does that sound like something Tau can do, or did I go about how assaulting after a deep strike works all wrong?

Usually after a deep strike units can not move any further. There may be a rare odd unit that can, but most can not.

Usually after you advance you can not charge. Some units can (Some Tyranids come to mind) but those are rare.

The Datasheet will tell you if you have a rule that lets you charge after the unit advanced.

1 is not correct BCB, as the Drones have to make it within 1” to be able to stop furthe Overwatch, as per OP’s Q (“make it or not” being the operative).

 JohnnyHell wrote:
1 is not correct BCB, as the Drones have to make it within 1” to be able to stop furthe Overwatch, as per OP’s Q (“make it or not” being the operative).

Yeah I know I added that to the end of the answer.

S’cool... we were simul-posting!

Scenario 1

You should have assaulted with the Crisis Suits first. Although you would have to face the overwatch, at the time you were shot at the drones would have been within the necessary distance for Saviour Protocols. A 2 model unit would have been unlikely to survive a charge but they would survive long enough to allow the crisis to avoid the heavy damage. IF they made their charge roll.. Remember even if you were only trying to tie up the LR shooting for a phase, you could still fall back and shoot as the Crisis have the FLY keyword. So you wouldn't lose your own firing phase next turn.

Scenario 2

Yes our shooting hurts (us). Yes with the removal of armour penetration rolls we need 4+ to hurt T8. On the up side you now roll 2 dice and take the highest for wounds inflicted.

Scenario 3

I don't assault that often so I really don't know what the situation is that you are describing.

Cheers

Andrew

 BaconCatBug wrote:

1) Correct. Drones in 8th after deployment are completely separate units. Would be no different to charging in a unit of Fire Warriors or Kroot to absorb the Overwatch. That being said, they need to survive and get to within 1" to deny any more Overwatch. If the drones fail or get killed, the Leman Russ can fire Overwatch again when the suits charge in.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Oh? We didn't realize that a unit could overwatch more than once.

If there are no enemy units within 1", a unit can overwatch an unlimited number of times a turn. Getting in a chaff unit within 1" to deny scary overwatch is key to getting fragile units into combat. Another trick is to use a unit that somehow denies overwatch, like Howling Banshees.

For scenario #3...I was hoping someone familiar with Tau could help.

Here's what I think I know before codex-specific modifiers:
----------
A unit moves.
Then a unit may advance.
Then a unit may shoot.
Then a unit may charge if it didn't advance.

Is that part right?

Mont'ka allows units within 6" of the commander to advance and shoot as if they hadn't moved. All of these units have jet pack and fly.
Then my Warlord had Exemplar of the Mont'ka which lets my warlord advance and shoot as if it hadn't advanced.

We thought some combination of that stuff let crisis suits near a commander or the commander himself get to move, advance, shoot, and assault. Thoughts?


------------


And I had an additional question:

Tau Vior'la Sept allows units that advance and who have rapid fire weapons to treat them like assault weapons; additionally they have no penalty to their "to hit" rolls for firing assault weapons when advancing.
1. Do those rapid fire weapons still rapid fire if they are Vior'la, or are they magically turned into assault weapons that can't shoot twice? Does a Pulse Rifle that is 30" or 15" rapid fire still shoot twice?
2. Why do they specify assault weapons? Can't units that have heavy weapons still move and shoot at -1BS, then just advance and not get the -1BS too?

 Dashofpepper wrote:
For scenario #3...I was hoping someone familiar with Tau could help.

Here's what I think I know before codex-specific modifiers:
----------
A unit moves.
Then a unit may advance.
Then a unit may shoot.
Then a unit may charge if it didn't advance.

Is that part right?

Mont'ka allows units within 6" of the commander to advance and shoot as if they hadn't moved. All of these units have jet pack and fly.
Then my Warlord had Exemplar of the Mont'ka which lets my warlord advance and shoot as if it hadn't advanced.

We thought some combination of that stuff let crisis suits near a commander or the commander himself get to move, advance, shoot, and assault. Thoughts?

A unit advances at the same time it moves. A subtle but important distinction, you have to declare you're advancing before you move the unit.
A unit that advances cannot shoot unless something else say otherwise (Sig.meme, but seriously things like Assault Weapons or some other special rule has to say you can fire).
Then a unit may charge if it didn't advance (again, special rules may say otherwise).

Montka doesn't allow you to charge. Nothing in what you describe would allow charging after advancing, but you can indeed shoot.

And I had an additional question:

Tau Vior'la Sept allows units that advance and who have rapid fire weapons to treat them like assault weapons; additionally they have no penalty to their "to hit" rolls for firing assault weapons when advancing.
1. Do those rapid fire weapons still rapid fire if they are Vior'la, or are they magically turned into assault weapons that can't shoot twice? Does a Pulse Rifle that is 30" or 15" rapid fire still shoot twice?
2. Why do they specify assault weapons? Can't units that have heavy weapons still move and shoot at -1BS, then just advance and not get the -1BS too?

1. The are turned into Assault weapons. A Rapid Fire 1 weapon becomes Assault 1, so can only fire once. You trade off the extra shots for the ability to advance and shoot, in addition to without penalty. A Pulse Rifle becomes Assault 1. It shoots 1 shot at up to 30", it doesn't double at 15" for that turn.

2. Because Heavy Weapons don't turn into assault weapons. If you advance, you cannot fire Heavy Weapons. What it does is allow you to advance and still fire Rapid Fire weapons (albeit without the doubling of shots) along without taking the -1 to hit penalty.

Also because this is a common mistake, having a -1 to hit does not give you -1BS. It modifies the dice roll, not the characteristic. If you have a penalty of -1 to hit, and a BS4+, you're still aiming to roll a 4+, you just roll it on a D6-1. This is a very important but subtle difference. Most people shortcut it to say "you need 5's" but it's a bad habit that can lead to issues down the road.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Oh? We didn't realize that a unit could overwatch more than once.

If there are no enemy units within 1", a unit can overwatch an unlimited number of times a turn. Getting in a chaff unit within 1" to deny scary overwatch is key to getting fragile units into combat. Another trick is to use a unit that somehow denies overwatch, like Howling Banshees.

As you are playing Tau I should add there is an important exception to this.

If a unit chooses to fire Overwatch using the Greater Good rule (that is, they are not the actual target of the charge but use the rule to shoot anyway) then that unit cannot shoot Overwatch again that turn, even if they themselves are the target of a subsequent charge.