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9th Edition will squat oldmarines with an official "Use your old models as counts-as" decree.

I genuinely hope they they instead just upgrade the old Marine units to have Primaris stats.

Karol wrote:

phillv85 766317 10218633 wrote:

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

The gak part is the important part. A codex has to have something good in it to be at least a bit fun to play. I would love to see most of the units people call bad in GK. Doesn't have to be something good like scouts, but naked tacticals, no specials, no possible upgrades, no psyker rules, nothing just cheap troops to run paladins.

I'm certain they're coming. I assume they just didn't have the studio time to dedicate to GK specific Primaris just yet.

They didn't make specific BA, SW or DA primaris they just added them in to those armies through an FAQ, even before those got a codex. GW could have done the same for GK, but through 8th, they were steadily cutting of any over laping rules between GK and other marines. That is why I wonder if they are going to added them. Would be nice if they did. Maybe the drop troop plasma dudes too. Those would be nice too.

GKs don't use normal wargear. They'll come up with some sort Primaris GK kit with fancy helmets, force weapons, and auto boltstorm guantlets.

That's my prediction anyway.

GK are a special case because they have unique geneseed.

As we know Cawl produced new geneseed for the Primaris. He (or someone else) would need to produce new versions of the grey knights geneseed so they could make Primaris grey knights. Getting hold of their geneseed to do this may be difficult given their secrecy.


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 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point still stands

They are exceptional but they still count. They are still standard marines.

You said you’d bet there would not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. I pointed out were you were wrong with said examples.

You then shifted the goalposts and said they don’t count because they are special cases, so your point does not stand.

If you had originally said you didn’t think there would be any future releases for standard marines, barring some exceptional cases like the heroes series and all FW releases, your point could still stand.

robbienw wrote:
GK are a special case because they have unique geneseed.

As we know Cawl produced new geneseed for the Primaris. He (or someone else) would need to produce new versions of the grey knights geneseed so they could make Primaris grey knights. Getting hold of their geneseed to do this may be difficult given their secrecy.


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 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point still stands

They are exceptional but they still count. They are still standard marines.

You said you’d bet there would not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. I pointed out were you were wrong with said examples.

You then shifted the goalposts and said they don’t count because they are special cases, so your point does not stand.

If you had originally said you didn’t think there would be any future releases for standard marines, barring some exceptional cases like the heroes series and all FW releases, your point could still stand.

I didn't say that. Look back, you have me confused with someone else.

You didn’t, it appears I confused you with another user, my apologies!

robbienw wrote:
You didn’t, it appears I confused you with another user, my apologies!

No worries, I've done it before myself!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th Edition will squat oldmarines with an official "Use your old models as counts-as" decree.

I genuinely hope they they instead just upgrade the old Marine units to have Primaris stats.

I doubt it, remember that the tac marine kit is less then 5 years old, the mk 3 armor is only 2 years old, GW'll likely contionue double dipping for awhile, especially as some of the oldest kits I belive are the rhino, which will be used by sisters and the Land Raider, in use by Custodes.

Does it really matter that much what prior editions fluff said about marines? Primaris already don't seem to make much sense fluff wise. So why would it matter if GK got something like tacticals or intercessors marines? At least there would be something to play with for GK players.

I understand an army having or not having stuff, because it makes it different. I find it very cool in fact. But it can't be different for sake of being different. If the unit options don't work, then people get something like the necron book or, from what I have been told, tyranids at some point in the past.

Karol wrote:
Does it really matter that much what prior editions fluff said about marines? Primaris already don't seem to make much sense fluff wise. So why would it matter if GK got something like tacticals or intercessors marines? At least there would be something to play with for GK players.

I understand an army having or not having stuff, because it makes it different. I find it very cool in fact. But it can't be different for sake of being different. If the unit options don't work, then people get something like the necron book or, from what I have been told, tyranids at some point in the past.

By the same token, it doesn't make sense to give GK all the normal Primaris units just so they have something.

GK don't use 'normal' soldiers, it's a big part of whole they are. They're all Psykers. So giving them Intercessors doesn't really make sense.

They need unique Primaris units when the time comes.

Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

If GW makes primaris that are GK style, they are going to end up costing 30pts each for an intercessor with baby smite and some unit specific psychic power. And 30pts per model units work, only if they are artilery, can shot ignoring LoS or flying.

GK armies don't need another 20+ pts elite unit, they have enough of those and non of them work. What they do need is something cheap. Demons have nurglings for 30pts, why not give some sort of servo skull swarm unit to GK for 30pts too. Don't give them infiltration or the extra resiliance of nurglings, drop their attacks, but make the servo skulls buff GK psykers near by. Maybe add re-rolls to cast, or extend range of spells or let GK players transfer perils effects to the skull swarms.

 Xenomancers wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

There is no reason why GK would not have primaris marines themselves. IMO - it's a huge missed opportunity.

I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

A post about how oldmarines are going away? It must be Monday!

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

If GW makes primaris that are GK style, they are going to end up costing 30pts each for an intercessor with baby smite and some unit specific psychic power. And 30pts per model units work, only if they are artilery, can shot ignoring LoS or flying.

GK armies don't need another 20+ pts elite unit, they have enough of those and non of them work. What they do need is something cheap. Demons have nurglings for 30pts, why not give some sort of servo skull swarm unit to GK for 30pts too. Don't give them infiltration or the extra resiliance of nurglings, drop their attacks, but make the servo skulls buff GK psykers near by. Maybe add re-rolls to cast, or extend range of spells or let GK players transfer perils effects to the skull swarms.

Having expensive elite units is basically defining trait of GKs...

Why don't we just give them Castellans and Guardsmen while we're at it if we just want to make GKs good with no regard for their fluff and design space?

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.


While it's hard to guess a specific timeline, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next codex is just Primaris marines and (possibly) repurposed old-marine vehicles where the crew either aren't visible or can be easily replaced with Primaris versions.


Although the way they're going, it's looking more and more likely that the next codex will just be Primaris Lieutenants.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.


While it's hard to guess a specific timeline, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next codex is just Primaris marines and (possibly) repurposed old-marine vehicles where the crew either aren't visible or can be easily replaced with Primaris versions.


Although the way they're going, it's looking more and more likely that the next codex will just be Primaris Lieutenants.

This will not happen. You are living in a fantasy world if you think it will.

(although sign me up for codex primaris lieutenents)

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

Yes you can. And you've got ways of doing this.

But there's a question you need to answer 1st: What do you really want here?
A) A pure GK list using only dreadnights? I.E.; NOT SOUP
B) A battalion+ (I presume for CPs, cheap(er) boots on the ground, etc)
You can't have both.

Path #1: A pure GK spearhead detachment.
1-2 GK grandmaster dreadnights + 3-6 heavy support dreadnights. This will be really limited CP/strat wise. And if you follow the Rule of 3 you'll only be able to have 3 heavy dreadnights. :(
The question here is: How important to you are your GK strats? Would 4 CP be workable?

Path #2: SOUP (a bit). A Battle-Forged army where the binding keyword is Adeptus Astartes.
Version A: Battalion
Add 3x5 man scout squads (165 pts min.) + dreadnights . Here you can get 6 dreadnights (3 HQ, 3 heavy, rule of 3 irrelevant because slots available only allow 3&3)
Now you have your battalion. You'll have CPs, BUT you'll lose access to chapter & GK specific strats & both groups chapter tactics. Can you live with this?
Version B: Battalion + Spearhead
Find yourself 2 cheap Astartes HQ models (techmarines pt wise, but $ wise I bet someone would just give you 2 basic marines) add the 15 scouts, call this detachment #1 (Battalion, Astartes, {chapter = ?}
Form your dreadnights into detachment 2 (Spearhead, Astartes, GK)
And now you've got your CPs, both sets of army traits, & both sets of strats (and are part of the soup problem ).

And if you're looking to improve your GK & wishing you could have some non-psychic Primaris? Follow path #2b above. Paint up any primaris & scouts you add to match your GK. And eventually? You'll have enough stuff to play either GK, SM Primaris, or mixes.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

Yes you can. And you've got ways of doing this.

But there's a question you need to answer 1st: What do you really want here?
A) A pure GK list using only dreadnights? I.E.; NOT SOUP
B) A battalion+ (I presume for CPs, cheap(er) boots on the ground, etc)
You can't have both.

Path #1: A pure GK spearhead detachment.
1-2 GK grandmaster dreadnights + 3-6 heavy support dreadnights. This will be really limited CP/strat wise. And if you follow the Rule of 3 you'll only be able to have 3 heavy dreadnights. :(
The question here is: How important to you are your GK strats? Would 4 CP be workable?

Path #2: SOUP (a bit). A Battle-Forged army where the binding keyword is Adeptus Astartes.
Version A: Battalion
Add 3x5 man scout squads (165 pts min.) + dreadnights . Here you can get 6 dreadnights (3 HQ, 3 heavy, rule of 3 irrelevant because slots available only allow 3&3)
Now you have your battalion. You'll have CPs, BUT you'll lose access to chapter & GK specific strats & both groups chapter tactics. Can you live with this?
Version B: Battalion + Spearhead
Find yourself 2 cheap Astartes HQ models (techmarines pt wise, but $ wise I bet someone would just give you 2 basic marines) add the 15 scouts, call this detachment #1 (Battalion, Astartes, {chapter = ?}
Form your dreadnights into detachment 2 (Spearhead, Astartes, GK)
And now you've got your CPs, both sets of army traits, & both sets of strats (and are part of the soup problem ).

And if you're looking to improve your GK & wishing you could have some non-psychic Primaris? Follow path #2b above. Paint up any primaris & scouts you add to match your GK. And eventually? You'll have enough stuff to play either GK, SM Primaris, or mixes.

Even easier way to get those other options that can make sense lore wise is to run your army as 3 Battalions, 1 Battalion of "Inquisitorial Scions", 1 Battalion with 3 Scout/Tac Squads and maybe a Dev Squad or two, 1 Battalion as GK. Keep the first two Battalions fairly cheap... And it really doesn't break the immersion into your army. Or shoot, just go Scions and GK in two Battalions.

I understand wanting to run a pure GK army Karol, but unless you are willing to adapt to the game even just a little bit, spamming posts about how bad your GK in every Marine related thread isn't going to fix your problem.

If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete. From a fluff POV the lack of options makes ZERO sense: "Look we have these big strong marines but let's not give them proper assault weapons or heavy weapons because the rest of the chapter would feel obsolete and we don't want them to feel bad."

That said I'm pretty sure no more smallmarine releases are coming. However they are already sculpted kits meaning they are making nothing but profit since the molds are in place waiting to be injected with plastic. There's no incentive to stop selling them.

 Weazel wrote:
If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete. From a fluff POV the lack of options makes ZERO sense: "Look we have these big strong marines but let's not give them proper assault weapons or heavy weapons because the rest of the chapter would feel obsolete and we don't want them to feel bad."

That said I'm pretty sure no more smallmarine releases are coming. However they are already sculpted kits meaning they are making nothing but profit since the molds are in place waiting to be injected with plastic. There's no incentive to stop selling them.

And many of those molds are fairly new too.

Without going into a lengthy repetitive tirade...

1) Yes, going forward, outside of maybe a character or two, every "new" released Marine kit for 40K will be Primaris-scaled.
2) Marine kits will remain around for a long time. GW likes to get 10-20 years out of a plastic mold before dumping it. They will be around for another 5-10 years easy...but you'll get nothing new.
3) If they decide to continue the HH line of plastics, you'll actually have a back alley to get "old" scaled Space Marines (I think this is the safest way to do it, but their HH kit prices are dumb)
4) They're not going to magically turn off the tap and delete Marine entries in the next 18 months. You have plenty of time to enjoy marines.
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.
6) If you like marines...smile, you're basically guaranteed another 10-20 kits over the next two years, so that's kinda cool.
7) Yes, every battlefield role that Marines currently carry out will be supplanted by a suitable Primaris option, eventually.

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.
Lieutenants.

I really can't see that happening. So much of the current marine kits are still new, loads are less than 5 years old. If they are selling out of the stock for them of course they would make new stock


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ccs wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

Definitely, 10 years is a bit of a low estimate There is plenty of Rogue Trader stuff on ebay, most of that stopped production in the mid 90's!

robbienw wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.
Lieutenants.

I really can't see that happening. So much of the current marine kits are still new, loads are less than 5 years old. If they are selling out of the stock for them of course they would make new stock


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

Definitely, 10 years is a bit of a low estimate There is plenty of Rogue Trader stuff on ebay, most of that stopped production in the mid 90's!

I'm 100% convinced that oldscale will be phased out, but I have to agree with you here. They will keep producing a lot of the kits for a long time, it doesn't make business sense to stop until they have to or they aren't selling well enough.

What will be interesting to see is what happens when the next wave of Primaris hits, which will likely mean that stores can't hold all the old kits due to shelf space. I think we'll see a bunch of oldscale kits go online only.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.

That would be very short time. GW doesn't keep HUGE stock of stuff(that costs money. Ideally they would prefer to ship sprues at the same rate as they produce so there would literally be zero stock at the time) so if that were plan say on the introduction of primaris then we would have been all out of stock loooong time ago. And why would they not print some more sprues? They have paid for the mould already so just matter of programming machine to cast up big pile of new sprues. Material cost is basically free anyway.

I think there are probably other kits from other factions that could go online only to make room if necessary. I doubt wave 2 is going to be that big, that it would need a huge amount of other kits to go online.

robbienw wrote:
I think there are probably other kits from other factions that could go online only to make room if necessary. I doubt wave 2 is going to be that big, that it would need a huge amount of other kits to go online.

I hope you're wrong. Half the Tyranid line is already online only

 Weazel wrote:
If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete.

That really depends on what their objective is with introducing Primaris Marines.

One of the theories bandied about is that what GW are aiming for is to simplify the range, in order to make it easier to stick to the whole 'No models, no rules' principle. Giving units fewer options also makes sense if they're intending to move more towards Power Levels being the standard in future editions.

TBH, even though there have been a few non-primaries recently, I can't see GW sticking with old-scale marines for that long. My predictions:

- We'll continue to see all new GW plastic marine releases being Primaris.
- Forge World will continue to be able to do 'niche' old-scale marines for either Heresy or for Imperial Armour 'historical' releases. Even given the above, I'd expect the next Imperial Armour books to feature a load of Primaris Minotaurs or Red Scorpions or something.
- Chaos Marine releases will increase in scale so that they're near-enough Primaris sized - this has already happened with DG and TS, and the new CSM models in the Blackstone Fortress game seem to follow the same pattern.
- The next time GW redo either Grey Knights or Deathwatch, they'll get embiggened in the same way. I could see this happening to Grey Knights quite soon.
- In the long run (like, maybe 5 years from now) we'll either see all regular marine stuff gone, or 'additional tech/doctrine advancements' that see Primaris taking on the roles of many of the old marines, and all Marines will end up just assumed to be Primaris from now on. (For example, either the old box dreads are discontinued or new fluff that says Primaris can fit in them now, same with Terminators, or Scouts, or Rhinos etc etc).

I knew this was bound to happen as soon as the first Primaris showed up but a lot of posters accused me of paranoia. Now I can tell you: Told you so!

For 16 pages on the same already: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/764903.page