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 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

Karol wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

Son of a gun, great points Karol... I actually agree with a good chunk of this.

I just wish GW had come straight out and said, "We're updating the scale and rules of marines to be more in line with their descriptions in the fluff." The most regrettable thing about Primaris is the writing that birthed them into the 40k universe. The second most regrettable thing is that they're in monolithic units with very few weapon choices.

Other than that the models are fantastic, in my opinion. As for the topic of this thread, I'll echo the doubt that any new mini-marines will be released from here on out, and that they'll be phased out entirely at some unknown point in the future.

At this point it seem glaringly obvious the GW will be phasing out original SM soon or later. As of now I've been picking up as many of the SM special characters I can so when GW stops making them I have them.

Karol wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

The Primaris models are simply stunning, let' be honest.

The downside of the range is that it's currently very limited. If we look at the Stormcast Eternals who launched with a similar, limited range we can see just how much they have been expanded since.

Once the Primars have access to more units, methods of play and variety of wargear more people will be happy to make the jump.

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

I agree that GKs should get Primaris. What I'm saying is they need to be bespoke units that properly for the themes of GKs, not just give them everything Primaris which Karol seemed to be suggesting.

The process of turning an existing marine into Primaris is not canon. It was mentioned in a tweet from a designer as a possibility, but it's not been in any official fluff. If it did become canon I'd be fine with that though, and it would help fill a bunch of potential plot issues especially with Dark Angels.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified..

Only if they have added that very recently.

 Luciferian wrote:
I just wish GW had come straight out and said, "We're updating the scale and rules of marines to be more in line with their descriptions in the fluff." The most regrettable thing about Primaris is the writing that birthed them into the 40k universe. The second most regrettable thing is that they're in monolithic units with very few weapon choices.

Other than that the models are fantastic, in my opinion. As for the topic of this thread, I'll echo the doubt that any new mini-marines will be released from here on out, and that they'll be phased out entirely at some unknown point in the future.

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff? If fluff is the problem, then GW could just say that primaris aren't considered trained enough to use the psychic powers and just don't have any to cast. Same way in a GK paladin unit where each one of those dudes was suppose to kill each kind of demon while naked and without weapons, using just psychic powers and sorcery, just one dude gets to cast. Rules are different from fluff to a huge degree. Psycannons should be able to kill demon princes in one salvo, if we went by the fluff, and we know that something with 1D, and few shot won't even scratch one.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

There is no such fluff.

There is not a single example of a regular marine being turned into a primaris. Not in any codex, white dwarf, forgeworld or black library fluff.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff? If fluff is the problem, then GW could just say that primaris aren't considered trained enough to use the psychic powers and just don't have any to cast. Same way in a GK paladin unit where each one of those dudes was suppose to kill each kind of demon while naked and without weapons, using just psychic powers and sorcery, just one dude gets to cast. Rules are different from fluff to a huge degree. Psycannons should be able to kill demon princes in one salvo, if we went by the fluff, and we know that something with 1D, and few shot won't even scratch one.

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

The primaris upsizing was mentioned on an early live stream and not heard of since. That said, I'd be stunned if they don't do it. It'll just take a few years.

It was mentioned as a thing, but nothing has come of it. There is no indication in the fluff it is possible.

I don't think so. Quite the opposite, GW seems to be going out of their way to keep old-Marines and nu-Marines separate.

Giving Primaris access to things like Land Raiders, Stormwolf ships or Stormravens, etc.. would've muddied the waters a lot more, right from the gate, without needing to make a single new kit or miniature (which might be what's stopping Grey Knight Primaris or up-Primarified Characters).


They didn't do that, so I'd think they want to keep old Marines around as a flavour. Even if old Marines drop from GW's most popular, best-selling kit to, dunno, No. 5 maybe (?), they'd still be outselling most other stuff, from Custodes to Tau to pretty much all of AoS, etc..,

GW's not gonna shelf something like that in the next 20 years or so.

Some kits are only a few years old at best and some SM kits are around 10-15 years and they've showed no signs of being discontinued anytime soon. What I think will happen is simple.

1) Every new release going forward will be Primaris flavored space marines and not older ones but the range is pretty much fleshed out anyway
2) Older marine kits will be around for a long long time. Worst case is they all get relegated to GW's online only as they have done stuff like that already anyway and Primaris is in store and FLGS
3) They will still keep the rules around even in the next codex and 9th edition as they still produce the models as some stuff is just staple units of the SM lore and faction.
4) If anything new comes out it'll most likely be in a supplement book rather than a codex.

Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

 Ishagu wrote:
Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

I've heard kind something contrary to that.

Supposedly there is a new all Primaris chapter getting specific rules with the next update, and they will have new Primaris special characters.

So we may see ones no one has ever heard of before!

I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

 Stux wrote:

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

I think two things are happening here. First am not being able to say what I mean properly in english and I am missing something from your arguments. Because GK ave no special gear or special tactics or stratagams. Everything they have is strickt worse then loyalist marines. They stratagems are weaker version of those marines have, and they use it on weaker units, with less support options marines have. Their psychic powers are garbage, save for one that works on what unit, which gets focused fired anyway, so it just means one more turn of playing and not creating a winning situation, because after it is dead the rest of the GK army just doesn't work. Their melee weapons never get used against weaker targets, and versus good melee units having 1A is death for 20-40+ pts models, but they still have to buy them. They have SB, and I guess if GK could run around with just those and no nemezis weapons they would be a no special ammo version of DW, so again less special gear and tactics.

Even if you go super casual open play, never take good options type of games. GK don't have a place there. They are suppose to be anti demon. But they are bad vs demons, in fact the sole fact that they are on the tables means a demon player has better chance of winning, because he can not recycle his demonic units.


I don't know maybe am missing something. Maybe there are some special WD GK only stratagems or FW rules for GK that give them new units that are good. Maybe your talking about that. But in the core game I just can't see the specialist part of GK. They are worse sternguards and termintors that have to buy overcosted melee weapons.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

I think two things are happening here. First am not being able to say what I mean properly in english and I am missing something from your arguments. Because GK ave no special gear or special tactics or stratagams. Everything they have is strickt worse then loyalist marines. They stratagems are weaker version of those marines have, and they use it on weaker units, with less support options marines have. Their psychic powers are garbage, save for one that works on what unit, which gets focused fired anyway, so it just means one more turn of playing and not creating a winning situation, because after it is dead the rest of the GK army just doesn't work. Their melee weapons never get used against weaker targets, and versus good melee units having 1A is death for 20-40+ pts models, but they still have to buy them. They have SB, and I guess if GK could run around with just those and no nemezis weapons they would be a no special ammo version of DW, so again less special gear and tactics.

Even if you go super casual open play, never take good options type of games. GK don't have a place there. They are suppose to be anti demon. But they are bad vs demons, in fact the sole fact that they are on the tables means a demon player has better chance of winning, because he can not recycle his demonic units.


I don't know maybe am missing something. Maybe there are some special WD GK only stratagems or FW rules for GK that give them new units that are good. Maybe your talking about that. But in the core game I just can't see the specialist part of GK. They are worse sternguards and termintors that have to buy overcosted melee weapons.

I'm not looking at this from a balance perspective, I'm coming at it from a design perspective.

GKs DO have unique loadouts for all their infantry. They do have psychic powers on their infantry, and force weapons, and storm Bolters, and rules teleporting certain units and so on.

I'm not arguing this makes them GOOD with the current balance. I'm saying this is a huge part of their IDENTITY.

I strongly believe you shouldn't throw away the identity of a faction just to make them less weak. As I said in an earlier post, if that was your goal we might as well put Infantry Squads and Castellans in the GK codex and call it a day.

But no, GK Primaris should FEEL like GKs. They should be Psykers with force weapons etc.

Making them good is an entirely separate discussion.

tneva82 wrote:

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Why are Custodians 'supposed to be' head taller than marines? It doesn't say that in their codex.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Why are Custodians 'supposed to be' head taller than marines? It doesn't say that in their codex.

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

 Ishagu wrote:
Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

I've actually had some more thought on this, and I will concede that there is actually some precedence in Tyranids. Old One Eye and the Swarmlord each come as an optional build for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants respectively.

It not totally impossible that they release a squad box and it contains parts like a unique head/Cape/sword etc to make a model or models into Special Characters.

That sort of modularity would really help people get on board with Primaris a bit more I would think too.

tneva82 wrote:


Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Yes, they should have thought of that. Just goes to show that the issue of scale has afflicted all of the space marine type models when you compare them to their relative statures in the fluff. Either way they're now caught in a game of leap frog with the models whether it's in the lore or simply in the dimensions of the models themselves; I just hope that if they continue to upgrade the different lines to a more "realistic" scale that they don't continue to justify it through fluff because that's totally unnecessary. All they ever had to say is, "from now on all power armor models will be larger because it looks cooler."

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets (snip)

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

This - typically I prefer to convert my own characters these days purely from a cost-to-benefit point.

 Raichase wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets (snip)

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

This - typically I prefer to convert my own characters these days purely from a cost-to-benefit point.

For real. Primaris bodies are a great template to go to town with your bitzbox on.