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Also, 3rd party companies are already producing quality resin bodies for Primaris scaled marines --- allowing you to make some custom characters for waaaaay cheaper.

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

It's what they did with Nork Deddog, and some of the big AoS monster kits - even the ones that predate AoS. The Freeguild General on Griffon has the components on the sprue to make Karl-Franz, for example, and the Space Wolves upgrade sprue gives you all the bits you need to make a plastic Ragnar Blackmane.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

It's what they did with Nork Deddog, and some of the big AoS monster kits - even the ones that predate AoS. The Freeguild General on Griffon has the components on the sprue to make Karl-Franz, for example, and the Space Wolves upgrade sprue gives you all the bits you need to make a plastic Ragnar Blackmane.

I actually retracted that statement in a subsequent post! I remembered Old One Eye and The Swarmlord were a thing.

Phasing them out is fine so long as there is a 1:1 replacement, ie, Primaris Terminators and what-have-you. What'll cause a riot and be fething stupid is if GW pulls a moronic move like scrapping the old marine line and not replacing the classic units with upscaled versions.

Well, I saw somewhere a picture comparison between Primaris and a Black legionaire from Blackstone Fortress. Seems a reescalation. Why not with Straight Marines?

I personally wouldn't mind too much if "old" marines were to be phased out eventually (should still take take at least a couple years though), but then again I only started at the end of 7th so my "oldmarine" collection is still fairly small. My primary gripe with the current roster of Primaris marines is that they don't synergize very well with my Space Wolves. Space Wolves are fairly choppy, while Primaris are almost exclusively shooty. The only things they have that are truly good in a scrap are the Captains, and the Reivers, Agressors and Redemptor Dread are also decent-ish, but the rest of 'em you probably want to keep as far away from CC as possible. So for the second wave of Primaris I'd like to see the following:

- At least one model that is available to all chapters that is a true CC specialist.
- Chapter-specific models (like we have Centurions for vanilla marines and Thunderwolf Cavalry for Space wolves right now).
- A transport that is cheaper in both points and teef than the Repulsor. At the moment things like Intercessors completely lack transport options because throwing them in a Repulsor is incredibly inefficient.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff?

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

ccs wrote:

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

Who cares if they are psykers in fluff. If you can't use the rules. Its like "having" a bike at a store. It is there you can look at it etc, you just can't ride it. Plus w40k fluff is attrocious and self contradicting, to a point where it makes not sense at all. 1ksons have normal smite, why is that? Even if we went along some anti game string of thought and decided that GK should be bad against anything, but demons. We would still arrive at the point that GK are bad vs demons, worse then other armies by a mile. Index armies like SoB are better vs demons.

The eldar fluff is that they are all a dead race, with craft worlds being blown up left and right. Yet somehow with that bad fluff, eldar players seem to be a happy bunch of people that like to throw around some fun jokes, like their book being actually underpowered, because it only has 10 OP units in it. And clearly it should have more, because of the fluff.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

Who cares if they are psykers in fluff. If you can't use the rules. Its like "having" a bike at a store. It is there you can look at it etc, you just can't ride it. Plus w40k fluff is attrocious and self contradicting, to a point where it makes not sense at all. 1ksons have normal smite, why is that? Even if we went along some anti game string of thought and decided that GK should be bad against anything, but demons. We would still arrive at the point that GK are bad vs demons, worse then other armies by a mile. Index armies like SoB are better vs demons.

The eldar fluff is that they are all a dead race, with craft worlds being blown up left and right. Yet somehow with that bad fluff, eldar players seem to be a happy bunch of people that like to throw around some fun jokes, like their book being actually underpowered, because it only has 10 OP units in it. And clearly it should have more, because of the fluff.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers.

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

It should also be noted that stuff like this varies by author. They're given quite a bit of license in their writing which leads to inconsistencies in the canon.

Basically, don't get too hung up on relatively small details in the novels.

 Stux wrote:
It should also be noted that stuff like this varies by author. They're given quite a bit of license in their writing which leads to inconsistencies in the canon.

Also the miniatures coming out may or may not have had an effect on descriptions related to size compared to the earlier novels - I'm playing catch up so I haven't read the newest books. But for example Legion and Deliverance Lost both have Alpharius and/or Omegon passing for a regular Legionary, having been written by different authors. However they are smaller than all the other Primarchs, the books also say as much.

At any rate GW may say they're first and foremost a miniature company, but in terms of the Primarchs the fluff came before the models (after all, all Primarchs still don't have models) so I wouldn't use the models for a scale comparison. In general tabletop 40k scales are all over the place. That's one reason for the Primaris being introduced, though frankly they shouldn't have been made a separate lore entity in my books. But for example Sisters of Silence are just as tall as regular plastic marines, which is obviously fluff-inaccurate. In general the scale has been creeping up over time as I'm sure we all know, leading to all sort of oddities given the age of some of the miniature ranges. As such I'd definitely "trust" the novels over models.

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

not claiming I read all books about custodes, but constantin valdor seems to be not more then a head shorter or taller then Dorn. no idea how tall dorn is though.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers

I don't know if something like this exists in other countries, but we have something called a dead law here. And GK being psykers is the same. The psychic powers are bad, not worth using or nerfed to a point where they don't equalize the cost of GK having them. To me that is not being psykers. Now if GK had a smite better then normal and a good psychic school like eldar or multiple school, then yeah, they would be psykers. Right now they are sternguard without the special ammon and obligatory bad melee weapons and no chapter tactics.

You'll have to define that, Google comes up empty of "dead law".

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

This in a nut shell is exactly how I feel. I recently read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley and the presence of Primaris space marines added nothing to the story or the setting. You could have told the same (pretty good ) story and not needed super duper space marines.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

This in a nut shell is exactly how I feel. I recently read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley and the presence of Primaris space marines added nothing to the story or the setting. You could have told the same (pretty good ) story and not needed super duper space marines.

Also it has shifted so much in the lore, CSM are no longer their equal, which they always were supposed to be, game wise you can mitigate that with rules to get balance but from a lore stand point its more counter productive than anything else, it doesn't add anything as even loyalist [layers don't want them, they just want upgraded marines, same with me with my wolves, I want all my old models, like bloodclaws and skyclaws etc. I don't want them replaced with boring 'stock Primaris' which looks like that is the way GW are going, I hope not though otherwise I'll just stick with my WE's. From a lore wise for the whole CSM-SM's to work, they have to be able to compete with one another, you don't want an auto-win in the lore, its boring for both parties. You want your characters to go through tough times, not breaze through skipping, because the Indomitus crusade is now more than 200 years old, the Primaris have a lot of experience now, before they could have a weakness in being inexperienced. The whole thing was just not needed and GW only did it for money, they wanted to lie to people and say old marines will still be part of the game, so they made them 'primaris' so people thought its just another army, another faction to collect.

I'd love it if GW just stated the Primaris geneseed failed and they all pretty much died and now normal marines just took their fancy new armour etc. It would give the lore a bit of flavour but not ruin it.


Why don't we have space marine, space marines, GW are living up to their ridiculousness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8

My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

Karol wrote:

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

not claiming I read all books about custodes, but constantin valdor seems to be not more then a head shorter or taller then Dorn. no idea how tall dorn is though.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers

I don't know if something like this exists in other countries, but we have something called a dead law here. And GK being psykers is the same. The psychic powers are bad, not worth using or nerfed to a point where they don't equalize the cost of GK having them. To me that is not being psykers. Now if GK had a smite better then normal and a good psychic school like eldar or multiple school, then yeah, they would be psykers. Right now they are sternguard without the special ammon and obligatory bad melee weapons and no chapter tactics.

Look, I'll agree with you that the majority of your psychic powers & your baby smites might seem lacking. And having that smite & the ability to Deny the Witch on virtually every unit (there's only 9 non-psyker units in your codex - Servitors + 8 vehicles) no doubt jacks up the pt.cost-per-model.
But you don't get to redefine what's a psyker & what isn't rules-wise in this game. Your units are psykers, wether or not you like it or think it's worth using, because that's what their Key Word says on the subject.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

well yeah any army "can" be a starter army, but some are better then others. ther options marines have is actually problematic for new players in some ways.

I strongly disagree with Delvarus Centurion. Old marine models may get updated to larger scales, maybe even Primaris scale, but I don't think the *idea* of an old marine is ever going to go away. Unless they do something akin to a full reboot of literally all currently existing 40k lore, Primaris as the sole protagonist marine faction in the 40k world is just not going to happen.

"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

Furthermore, I don't buy that GW would bother developing new trademarks and lore for the Primaris line if they simply intended to replace vanilla marines completely, because if so, why not simply release the Primaris Intercessor box set as a new Tactical Squad box set? They spent money and effort into clearly differentiating between the two types of marines, or in other words, two highly differentiated product categories. If a total replacement of the vanilla Space Marine line was their ultimate goal they would have approached it the same way they approached updating the Death Guard line or the CSM line: by simply releasing newer, larger, updated models.

I believe the word "Primaris" is important because it serves as a flag that marks a set of products and associated lore specifically catering to new players. If all they wanted to do was sell bigger marines, they could have easily just released bigger marine models as the "new, 8th edition space marine".

 barboggo wrote:
I strongly disagree with Delvarus Centurion. Old marine models may get updated to larger scales, maybe even Primaris scale, but I don't think the *idea* of an old marine is ever going to go away. Unless they do something akin to a full reboot of literally all currently existing 40k lore, Primaris as the sole protagonist marine faction in the 40k world is just not going to happen.

"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

Furthermore, I don't buy that GW would bother developing new trademarks and lore for the Primaris line if they simply intended to replace vanilla marines completely, because if so, why not simply release the Primaris Intercessor box set as a new Tactical Squad box set? They spent money and effort into clearly differentiating between the two types of marines, or in other words, two highly differentiated product categories. If a total replacement of the vanilla Space Marine line was their ultimate goal they would have approached it the same way they approached updating the Death Guard line or the CSM line: by simply releasing newer, larger, updated models.

I believe the word "Primaris" is important because it serves as a flag that marks a set of products and associated lore specifically catering to new players. If all they wanted to do was sell bigger marines, they could have easily just released bigger marine models as the "new, 8th edition space marine".

Not since GW said that current marines can become Primaris, so it won't effect the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

well yeah any army "can" be a starter army, but some are better then others. ther options marines have is actually problematic for new players in some ways.

Yeah but not for marines, they'll never be a small neice army like GK's or Harlies. Designing it so that they are elite armies only works for elite armies, SM will never be that elite. Options isn't a problem for new players, new morons maybe, its harder now anyways, because you have to pay for literally every weapon etc. but that's what power points are for, I don't see why GW had to simplify the game when they had powerpoints which are perfect for beginners. GW are just going overkill with the simplification because of that star wars game. Plus only nerds like us play the game, nerds are great are learning rules as nerds are obsessive, GW thinks they'll be as popular as apple.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marines will stay, but will experience 'rules-squeeze'.

"Sure you're free to field them! Knock yourself out, chum! I'll just be over here playing with my übermarines, decked out with new kit, powers, strats, etc."

GW have a good handle on how to run this, from their AoS experience. Leave the army alone, but punish players for playing them, while offering multiple incentives to upgrade to Primaris. Look at sales figures when units get new rules, or new models with good rules drop: they sell out everywhere, and armies just reflect those new rulesets organically. So yeah, GW will let the rules do the hard lifting for them.

It might even be starting quite soon, with a second wave Primaris release. Up the power levels, and hear the marine players cry that their favourite characters can't use Primaris strats, vehicles, synergies, it's not fair! At which point GW kindly 'bows to public pressure' and rereleases character line in primaris scale as the faction's third wave, and the transition is pretty much complete.

 barboggo wrote:
"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

The bit in there that they have tried and faied to trademark before is 'Space Marine'. They can't copyright that. Shifting entirely over to a new world of 'Primaris Marines' solves that problem.

In fact, that may be the best reason why they embarked on the whole Primaris storyline rather than just releasing Primaris-sized models and saying 'this is the new scale of Space Marine, deal with it'.

In a few years time, their poster faction is called the Primaris Marines, and 'Space Marine' becomes an alternative term not used in official promotions - like 'Imperial Guard'.



.

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

Oldmarines being phased out eventually would not invalidate old lore and novels in any way. Those novels now simply play in the past, that's all. I think 10 years from now there won't be much oldmarines left tbh, lorewise, shelf-wise and rulewise.

Playing with a mix of straight maries and Primaris is hard to win. And if I have to compare it is better playing with only straight marines than only Primaris.

Primaris were launched and in my opinion they where leaved in the middle of nowhere. No option in weapons, far too expensive in points, leaving you an army with very few model for survive the high fire rate of the game. The models are nice, like what straight marines should be (the new Black Legionaire is more likes a Primaris, he is true scale).

Probably yes, in 10 years we will have no more straight marines. But then we will have a new Edition, with changes. We will have a bigger lore of Primaris, with leaders. They will have more options in weapons, more vehicles, real elite troops and a bettet points balance.

I hope we will have a version of tactical squads. And also a kind of devastators with multiple weapons options. And a Terminator squad, something new but similar to the tactical dreadnought armour, a new model from Cawl.

We will see, but I still have the fly behind the ear because of the new scale of Csm.

I have to agree with barboggo, primaris really do feel like a starter army with all the ETB kits and the Conquest stuff. I really cant see normal marines, with their richer background and history, going anywhere.

Seeing the multiple sizing pictures that are about now with height comparisons of the primaris marines and all the new stuff in the BSF box, it has really highlighted for me how chunky, ugly and plain primaris look by comparison to other recent gw minis.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not since GW said that current marines can become Primaris, so it won't effect the lore.

GW haven't said that, though. One guy said it on Facebook, and that comment was later removed. And the word from Black Library authors started out as 'Nope, they can't be upgraded' and then later changed to 'Uh... we're just not supposed to go there either way right now...'

It's possible that GW will go that way, but nothing's been 'officially' stated about it yet.

However, that one guy was Pete Foley, the lead designer. Considering how explicit his answer was, I don't think he was confused. I think it is likely that he merely said it too soon, and the upgrade is for when GW wants to move some of the old special characters into Primaris.