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Voss wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


They managed to weld an aquila on it I'm sure they've looked under the hood.

Not necessarily- looking 'under the hood' is a good way to offend the machine spirit.
These are folks whose approach to fixing complex tech has literally involved incense, prayers, applying holy oil (WD-40) and striking the object three times with a (blessed) wrench.

bs, that doesn't offend the machine spirit, you just made that up. How would they ever fix anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They managed to weld an aquila on it I'm sure they've looked under the hood.

Who is 'they'?

The mechanicus wouldn't be the only beings in the Imperium who know how to stick a thing onto another thing.

Yeah I doubt it can interfere with scanners or cogitators and show a perfectly working action potentials denoting an automaton. If we are talking realism it would probably be a wave that disrupts it but I really doubt they have a wave that can perfectly replicate such precision and the Imperium would most likely have things to detect that as they inteference would have to be grounded in the laws of physics, I doubt it can use telekinesis, I mean men of Iron were probably incredibly advanced but not magic, plus there are a lot of examples of DAOT tech and the only thing that reaches that kind of tech level was the castigator titan, but that was chaos warped so not really a good example to draw from.

Again, assuming it ever actually finds itself in a situation where it's having its head scanned.


But I'm sort of reminded here of a story from way back at the end of one of GW's global campaigns, where a dude was arguing with one of the games developers over whether or not Chaos had established a strong foothold on the ground. Dude's argument against was that 'Summoning daemons takes time!' ... to which said Games Dev responded, 'Really? How long does it take, exactly?'


The point being, it's a little pointless sitting here arguing that a robot couldn't pass undetected in the Imperium when that argument relies entirely on knowledge of completely fictional technology... If the robot's backstory is that it has managed to pass undetected, then it seems fairly safe to assume that it has the wherewithal to remain undetected.

So who else did it...

" to which said Games Workshop responded, 'Really? How long does it take, exactly?'" yeah but the difference is, is that we are BOTH talking about hypotheticals, I never said it 'can't' scan, I just said it probably couldn't if we are talking realism, which I even said 'realism' We know that the Mechanicum can scan machines they can scan the workings of whole battleships and you are the one that is suggesting that it 'can' disrupt scans.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

So who else did it...

It could have been just about anybody, most likely at the robot's request. He's pretending to be a Mechanicus robot, remember?

If I show up at your house pretending to be a soldier, do you assume I went to the local barracks and asked them to dress me, or that I found a replica uniform somewhere else? Same thing here... the Aquila is unlikely to have come from the Mechanicus. He most likely found someone, somewhere in the last 10000 years, to make or scavenge an aquila and glue it on.

yeah but the difference is, is that we are BOTH talking about hypotheticals, I never said it 'can't' scan, I just said it probably couldn't if we are talking realism, which I even said 'realism' We know that the Mechanicum can scan machines they can scan the workings of whole battleships and you are the one that is suggesting that it 'can' disrupt scans.

Not what I said at all. What I said was that it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to have that ability.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter. Either it can pass such scans, it's managed to avoid such scans, or it's known to certain members of the Mechanicus who choose to let it be for whatever reason. We know this, because the Mechanicus haven't destroyed it. You can choose to either accept that this is the fluff and move on, or you can believe that the fluff is 'unrealistic' because something that it doesn't say ever happened would surely have happened...


Although getting hung up on 'realism' in the background for a space fantasy involving demons, magic, superhuman werewolves, semi-sentient fungus, and immortal space elves seems like it would get aggravating fairly quickly, to be honest...

 Grey Templar wrote:
snip ... make it so a star will never die(Sol has had this process done to it)...

That’s really cool, what book is that information in?

 insaniak wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

So who else did it...

It could have been just about anybody, most likely at the robot's request. He's pretending to be a Mechanicus robot, remember?

If I show up at your house pretending to be a soldier, do you assume I went to the local barracks and asked them to dress me, or that I found a replica uniform somewhere else? Same thing here... the Aquila is unlikely to have come from the Mechanicus. He most likely found someone, somewhere in the last 10000 years, to make or scavenge an aquila and glue it on.

yeah but the difference is, is that we are BOTH talking about hypotheticals, I never said it 'can't' scan, I just said it probably couldn't if we are talking realism, which I even said 'realism' We know that the Mechanicum can scan machines they can scan the workings of whole battleships and you are the one that is suggesting that it 'can' disrupt scans.

Not what I said at all. What I said was that it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to have that ability.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter. Either it can pass such scans, it's managed to avoid such scans, or it's known to certain members of the Mechanicus who choose to let it be for whatever reason. We know this, because the Mechanicus haven't destroyed it. You can choose to either accept that this is the fluff and move on, or you can believe that the fluff is 'unrealistic' because something that it doesn't say ever happened would surely have happened...


Although getting hung up on 'realism' in the background for a space fantasy involving demons, magic, superhuman werewolves, semi-sentient fungus, and immortal space elves seems like it would get aggravating fairly quickly, to be honest...

Yeah and the robot would have to request the Imperial actors to put it on him. If its is an automaton then they are going to treat it like one and they are going to have a look at it, they find it in the blackstone fortress and they are just going to take it as a servant without investigating it, maybe its gone haywire or maybe some enemy has tinkered with it using it for a trap to kill them all at the opportune moment.

That is exactly what you said, you suggested that as a possibility, and then you are trying to take a dig at me for doing something I didn't even say, I was saying they would surely scan it, which they can actually do in the lore and you were the one coming up with the 'daemon summoning' statements, hoisted by your own petard.

Well the lore that we read uses realism,, so why not use realism when there is no other lore-facts to go on. Why are you even on this forum...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


They managed to weld an aquila on it I'm sure they've looked under the hood.

Not necessarily- looking 'under the hood' is a good way to offend the machine spirit.
These are folks whose approach to fixing complex tech has literally involved incense, prayers, applying holy oil (WD-40) and striking the object three times with a (blessed) wrench.

bs, that doesn't offend the machine spirit, you just made that up. How would they ever fix anything.

They press the rune of activation. Twice. (with the proper prayers and etc).

[Yes. They turn it off and on again.]

These things have happened in print.

The more elaborate/serious discussions of the Ad Mech go a bit further, but basically the repair of tech is an act of rote worship, a ritual, not a matter of understanding how things work.

Rogue Trader, p 98 wrote:Runic Spaceflight - An Introduction; Naval Flight Manual W110E Strike the first rune upon the engine's casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct. Strike the second rune upon the engine's casing employing the arc-tip of the power-driver. If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in like manner to the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer. A libation should be offered. If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked "ON".

Seriously, hit the engine three times with the wrench and push the on button.

Warhammer 40K Compendium, p 131 wrote:from "Lord of the Engines" 16th Tome, Verse 2001 And when at last he came upon the vehicle, he perceived the distress of the engine therein and forthwith struck the rune and it was good. Thereupon the engine ignited and was filled with strength...


from "The Book of Five Runes" When uttering the incantation, mark well that the rod is upon and not within the intake. The second incantation should not be uttered until all the fumes have come forth, then the way shall be clear for the sacred words to penetrate unto the heart of the engine. If the mounting be hot say the third rune, if it be cold the fourth rune is more appropriate. For then the wrath of the engine will be aroused...

Ritual. Not understanding.

Voss wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


They managed to weld an aquila on it I'm sure they've looked under the hood.

Not necessarily- looking 'under the hood' is a good way to offend the machine spirit.
These are folks whose approach to fixing complex tech has literally involved incense, prayers, applying holy oil (WD-40) and striking the object three times with a (blessed) wrench.

bs, that doesn't offend the machine spirit, you just made that up. How would they ever fix anything.

They press the rune of activation. Twice. (with the proper prayers and etc).

[Yes. They turn it off and on again.]

These things have happened in print.

The more elaborate/serious discussions of the Ad Mech go a bit further, but basically the repair of tech is an act of rote worship, a ritual, not a matter of understanding how things work.

Rogue Trader, p 98 wrote:Runic Spaceflight - An Introduction; Naval Flight Manual W110E Strike the first rune upon the engine's casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct. Strike the second rune upon the engine's casing employing the arc-tip of the power-driver. If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in like manner to the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer. A libation should be offered. If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked "ON".

Seriously, hit the engine three times with the wrench and push the on button.

Warhammer 40K Compendium, p 131 wrote:from "Lord of the Engines" 16th Tome, Verse 2001 And when at last he came upon the vehicle, he perceived the distress of the engine therein and forthwith struck the rune and it was good. Thereupon the engine ignited and was filled with strength...


from "The Book of Five Runes" When uttering the incantation, mark well that the rod is upon and not within the intake. The second incantation should not be uttered until all the fumes have come forth, then the way shall be clear for the sacred words to penetrate unto the heart of the engine. If the mounting be hot say the third rune, if it be cold the fourth rune is more appropriate. For then the wrath of the engine will be aroused...

Ritual. Not understanding.

Runes and chant liturgies are only used after standard procedures fail or to ensure it works without failure, they still physically make and repair machinery.. And nowhere does it say 'looking under the hood' is blasphemy, you can take as many quotes of of context as you want, still wont be right. How did they make the repulsor, they didn't just throw runes at lumps of ceremite and hope for it to build itself.

I suspect ther is a 'the master is the servant' situation going on here, where the robot publicly 'serves' an adept, but in truth the power dynamic is reversed and UR-25 is the true master.

I imagine the adept is kept in line with promises of forbidden knowledge and reminders/threats of what would happen to the adept if it was discovered he was harbouring fugitive AI.

I also suspect the appearance of the robot (power fist and assault cannon) is a disguise to keep up appearances of being imperial tech. It's body has likely been redesigned for this purpose (see Aquila).

The robot must be skilled at duplicity to have survived using cover identities for so long.

 agurus1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
snip ... make it so a star will never die(Sol has had this process done to it)...

That’s really cool, what book is that information in?

As I recall it was in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook. The Space Wolf omnibus might have mentioned it too.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Yeah and the robot would have to request the Imperial actors to put it on him.

You missed the point. At some point in the preceding 10000 years, he could have had anybody put the aquila on him. The Mechanicus aren't the only people in the galaxy who can glue badges on things.

If its is an automaton then they are going to treat it like one and they are going to have a look at it, ...

Except they're not. He showed up at the Blackstone Fortress announcing that he was on an important mission for the Mechanicus and would kill anyone who tried to impede him. So nobody (Imperial, at least) on the station is going to stop him. They have more important things to worry about than whether or not the robot is who he says he is.

That is exactly what you said, you suggested that as a possibility, and then you are trying to take a dig at me for doing something I didn't even say, I was saying they would surely scan it, which they can actually do in the lore and you were the one coming up with the 'daemon summoning' statements, hoisted by your own petard.

Yeah, I think you rather missed the point of that story, to be honest.

Well the lore that we read uses realism,, so why not use realism when there is no other lore-facts to go on. Why are you even on this forum...

Because I enjoy the scintillating conversation.

"BFG source books put the size of at least one Ark Mechanicus at 5-7 KM. It is possible the Speranza is a Special snowflake that was bigger, but I doubt that it was as large as a Gloriana. Not only does it not mesh with the descriptions in the story, it makes no sense why the eldar would send a 5KM long cruiser to take it on alone and expect it to win (the farseer was shocked when it didn't... a farseer who had experience fighting the Imperium)."

BFG sourcebooks list the length of a "typical" Ark Mechanicus. The Speranza was *not* built to Ark Mechanicus specs. The Mechanicus didn't exist yet in any form when it *was* built. Look at it this way: you're searching for an STC. You're allowed to requisition any ship in the Mechanicus fleet to be the ship you use to do the search. You come across a ship that's, lets say, 8km long. You add it to Mechanicus resources. Would you then not be allowed to make it an Ark Mechanicus why?

The 5-7km might be the typical. It's the general range for Ark Mechanicuses. It's not a limit on the size an Ark Mechanicus can be in fluff. It might be used for rules on the tabletop. Look at it this way: an Imperial Guard trooper has a bs4+. I'm sure there is a guardsman in the fluff who is a much better shot than the average Vet, who has a bs3+. The rules still list Guardman bs as a 4+, because that's the typical, and that's how the game is written.

Similarly, an IG Captain has two arms. That's the spec. At least once in the galaxy, an IG Captain has one arm. Because he lost it in action or something. I can't cite, but it's obvious enough.

As for the cruiser it's width fully eclipsed, it belonged to a class of cruisers, and I read that IoM cruisers were typically 4-6 KM long.

There's no fluff that says the Speranz isn't massively larger than 5-7km. There's a lot of fluff that suggests it is.

As for the topic of space speeds by volume: we don't know what the future holds. Larger vessels are likely to be able to fit more engines per volume, yes. So a higher top speed might be likely. But maneuverability will be capped by structural integrety - which will decrease by volume over area. Giving the smaller ship the advantage. So the larger vessel *may* have higher base speed, but is very likely to accelerate/maneuver much slower.

However, maneuverability isn't the sole reason aircraft take out ships. It's because weapons packages that threaten an asset tend to come in much smaller sizes than the assets they threaten. An individual with an RPG can threaten a semi. An inflatable raft with an anti-ship missile mounted on it can threaten a capital ship.

The idea that a Cruiser couldn't threaten a Dreadnaught is silly. Even at pairity tech levels, if the Cruiser could assume an unimpeded alpha, it should assume it will win the fight. Now, recall that the Eldar had cloaking, which they believed sufficient. Also, recall that the Eldar did not know that the Dreadnaught was a DAoT vessel. Also, recall that the Eldar in y40k know their tech is well beyond IoM tech. Also, remember that Eldar are arrogance taken to the max. Also, remember that the CWE forces are spread increadibly thinly, and don't do pitched battles when they can avoid it. Finally, recall that we did not see what impact that Cruiser's weapons *would* have had on the Sperenza. It seems *very likely* that the CWE would send a single Cruiser in this situation to destroy what they thought was just some oversided IoM clunker.

 insaniak wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Yeah and the robot would have to request the Imperial actors to put it on him.

You missed the point. At some point in the preceding 10000 years, he could have had anybody put the aquila on him. The Mechanicus aren't the only people in the galaxy who can glue badges on things.

If its is an automaton then they are going to treat it like one and they are going to have a look at it, ...

Except they're not. He showed up at the Blackstone Fortress announcing that he was on an important mission for the Mechanicus and would kill anyone who tried to impede him. So nobody (Imperial, at least) on the station is going to stop him. They have more important things to worry about than whether or not the robot is who he says he is.

That is exactly what you said, you suggested that as a possibility, and then you are trying to take a dig at me for doing something I didn't even say, I was saying they would surely scan it, which they can actually do in the lore and you were the one coming up with the 'daemon summoning' statements, hoisted by your own petard.

Yeah, I think you rather missed the point of that story, to be honest.

Well the lore that we read uses realism,, so why not use realism when there is no other lore-facts to go on. Why are you even on this forum...

Because I enjoy the scintillating conversation.

No you missed the point. He was claiming something that isn't known, as were you. I was claiming something that is known in the lore and saying it would most likely be applied to the robot lol Granted neither of us claimed facts but the story is far more related to your argument.

Why can't the robot weld the aquila on by itself?
Why would a thinking machine ever let itself be put into a predicament where people or techpriests have to examine and possibly tamper with its innards?
Why would it not murder these people at the first chance it gets and quickly make an escape?
How the hell do you transfer your sentience/intelligence into another physical unit without the necessary parts to run an A.I.? This is 40K, and DAoT technology can't just be found willy nilly. For a new unit, the robot would need a workshop where he can gather, build, and scrap all the parts necessary, assemble them, and quite likely, he'll need a significant amount of energy transferred to the new frame.

Bharring wrote:
"BFG source books put the size of at least one Ark Mechanicus at 5-7 KM. It is possible the Speranza is a Special snowflake that was bigger, but I doubt that it was as large as a Gloriana. Not only does it not mesh with the descriptions in the story, it makes no sense why the eldar would send a 5KM long cruiser to take it on alone and expect it to win (the farseer was shocked when it didn't... a farseer who had experience fighting the Imperium)."

BFG sourcebooks list the length of a "typical" Ark Mechanicus. The Speranza was *not* built to Ark Mechanicus specs. The Mechanicus didn't exist yet in any form when it *was* built. Look at it this way: you're searching for an STC. You're allowed to requisition any ship in the Mechanicus fleet to be the ship you use to do the search. You come across a ship that's, lets say, 8km long. You add it to Mechanicus resources. Would you then not be allowed to make it an Ark Mechanicus why?

The 5-7km might be the typical. It's the general range for Ark Mechanicuses. It's not a limit on the size an Ark Mechanicus can be in fluff. It might be used for rules on the tabletop. Look at it this way: an Imperial Guard trooper has a bs4+. I'm sure there is a guardsman in the fluff who is a much better shot than the average Vet, who has a bs3+. The rules still list Guardman bs as a 4+, because that's the typical, and that's how the game is written.

Similarly, an IG Captain has two arms. That's the spec. At least once in the galaxy, an IG Captain has one arm. Because he lost it in action or something. I can't cite, but it's obvious enough.

As for the cruiser it's width fully eclipsed, it belonged to a class of cruisers, and I read that IoM cruisers were typically 4-6 KM long.

There's no fluff that says the Speranz isn't massively larger than 5-7km. There's a lot of fluff that suggests it is.

As for the topic of space speeds by volume: we don't know what the future holds. Larger vessels are likely to be able to fit more engines per volume, yes. So a higher top speed might be likely. But maneuverability will be capped by structural integrety - which will decrease by volume over area. Giving the smaller ship the advantage. So the larger vessel *may* have higher base speed, but is very likely to accelerate/maneuver much slower.

However, maneuverability isn't the sole reason aircraft take out ships. It's because weapons packages that threaten an asset tend to come in much smaller sizes than the assets they threaten. An individual with an RPG can threaten a semi. An inflatable raft with an anti-ship missile mounted on it can threaten a capital ship.

The idea that a Cruiser couldn't threaten a Dreadnaught is silly. Even at pairity tech levels, if the Cruiser could assume an unimpeded alpha, it should assume it will win the fight. Now, recall that the Eldar had cloaking, which they believed sufficient. Also, recall that the Eldar did not know that the Dreadnaught was a DAoT vessel. Also, recall that the Eldar in y40k know their tech is well beyond IoM tech. Also, remember that Eldar are arrogance taken to the max. Also, remember that the CWE forces are spread increadibly thinly, and don't do pitched battles when they can avoid it. Finally, recall that we did not see what impact that Cruiser's weapons *would* have had on the Sperenza. It seems *very likely* that the CWE would send a single Cruiser in this situation to destroy what they thought was just some oversided IoM clunker.

The Speranza was the size of a small moon, big enough to have its own gravity well. The Eldar strike cruiser was not attempting to destroy it directly, they were attempting to cripple the colossus in the middle of the storm with hit and run attacks. They had not expected the Speranza to possess the targeting technology and weapons that could hit their cruiser in the conditions of the storm, and neither had the AdMech and Imperial personnel manning the Speranza. The Eldar did not know that the Speranza was a DAoT vessel, and even if they had known they likely would not have known what the DAoT was, and even if they had known that, they likely would not have believed that Human DAoT technology could ever surpass any Eldar technology, not even the relatively primitive technologies (by Eldar standards) of the Craftworlds.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Speranza was the size of a small moon, big enough to have its own gravity well.

This is not accurate, I have no idea where you are getting this from. A cruiser doesn't even have the total firepower to destroy a "moon" sized object made of rock, let alone one made of adamantium with advanced shields.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Eldar strike cruiser was not attempting to destroy it directly, they were attempting to cripple the colossus in the middle of the storm with hit and run attacks.

Neither is this, I don't think this was ever explicitly stated in the story. The Eldar Cruiser used hit an run attacks, and used the storm and stealth technology as "radar" cover, but that is just being a smart ship commander. The characters on the bridge were very worried that the cruiser was going to destroy the Speranza.

Bharring wrote:
The idea that a Cruiser couldn't threaten a Dreadnaught is silly. Even at pairity tech levels, if the Cruiser could assume an unimpeded alpha, it should assume it will win the fight.

Are you serious? A cruiser cannot threaten a dreadnought on it's own, any more than a man 1/4 my height could take me in a fight unless I sat there and let him pound my face in. It would require a group of cruisers acting in unison to take down something as large as a dreadnought, even with the tech gap between typical IOM ships and eldar vessels.

There is just no way a singular 4-6KM ship can even threaten a 20+KM ship assuming even relative tech parity. The power outputs of both aren't even in the same magnitude.

Bharring wrote:

Further, what size vessels are sent to sink Aircraft Carriers? F4s, F18s, Zeros. Ships much smaller than their target. A single F18 would easily sink a 1950s carrier, for example. The days of sending the larger ship to sink the smaller ship ended in WWII, where the Bismark and Yammamato did so poorly, and the Aircraft Carrier dominated the theatre.

Zeros, even loaded with explosives, struggled to sink ships. You're thinking of Vals and Kates.

Second, the idea that carriers won the war for the US isn't incorrect, but the reason they did so was clearly missed by not just you, but admirals and others.

The principal advantages of a CV are range, and being inexpensive and quick to build. The US built 151 aircraft carriers during the war. Which is more than the battleship output of all parties to the war.

However, they were cheaply built and did nto last. Not one of the Casablanca class, for example, survives, despite being the largest class of carriers ever produced.

So, when you can field 15 of one type of ship for every one the enemy can, that type will outperform everyone else.

And if you think that Yamato performed poorly, remember that it took aircraft from a dozen carriers to bring it down. And remember that Yamato was Taffy-3s opponent. Though the Navy does not like to talk about the Battle off Samar, it did show what happens when battleships get in among your carriers.

tneva82 wrote:
Stats looked decidedly underwhelming for what supposedly nearly wiped out humanity...With DAOT human technology...This had to be like lowest of the low of man of irons or there was lot more than just fighting ability going around

Artificial intelligence has little care about stats as it can basically be invincible as long as it can transfer its self to another robot...all the stats represent is the body it uses.... furthermore in this game he is basically overpowered from all reviews his only weaknesss is he’s slow.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Runes and chant liturgies are only used after standard procedures fail or to ensure it works without failure, they still physically make and repair machinery.. And nowhere does it say 'looking under the hood' is blasphemy, you can take as many quotes of of context as you want, still wont be right. How did they make the repulsor, they didn't just throw runes at lumps of ceremite and hope for it to build itself.

I'm not sure why you believe the quotes are out of context. They are literally repair rites used by the Ad Mech.

As for making things, they use mass crowds of slaves to make parts, then put them together in the prescribed fashion according to the holy texts* with the correct liturgy and sacrifices.

*meaning STC templates, which are simplified to the point that you can slap a vehicle together out of any available material.


Technology as religious ritual and lack of scientific understanding are major themes of the setting. I have no idea why you're scoffing at the idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Consider. You really, really, really don't want anyone recreating AI.

Nah. Just use the AIs to run the weapons factories and strategic weapon systems. WCGW?

w1zard wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Speranza was the size of a small moon, big enough to have its own gravity well.

This is not accurate, I have no idea where you are getting this from. A cruiser doesn't even have the total firepower to destroy a "moon" sized object made of rock, let alone one made of adamantium with advanced shields.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Eldar strike cruiser was not attempting to destroy it directly, they were attempting to cripple the colossus in the middle of the storm with hit and run attacks.

Neither is this, I don't think this was ever explicitly stated in the story. The Eldar Cruiser used hit an run attacks, and used the storm and stealth technology as "radar" cover, but that is just being a smart ship commander. The characters on the bridge were very worried that the cruiser was going to destroy the Speranza.

Bharring wrote:
The idea that a Cruiser couldn't threaten a Dreadnaught is silly. Even at pairity tech levels, if the Cruiser could assume an unimpeded alpha, it should assume it will win the fight.

Are you serious? A cruiser cannot threaten a dreadnought on it's own, any more than a man 1/4 my height could take me in a fight unless I sat there and let him pound my face in. It would require a group of cruisers acting in unison to take down something as large as a dreadnought, even with the tech gap between typical IOM ships and eldar vessels.

There is just no way a singular 4-6KM ship can even threaten a 20+KM ship assuming even relative tech parity. The power outputs of both aren't even in the same magnitude.

Given the conditions, there was good reason for the Eldar ship to think it could chip away, even at a ship so much more massive than it was. The storm wasn't a trivial thing for the Speranza either. Taking damage to certain vital points in the ships thrusters could easily hurt it, from the Eldar's point of view. Its a pretty stereotypical tactic for a race that specializes in hit and run attacks.

You are ignoring the facts that were stated in that book. The Speranza is ~20km long. The Eldar Cruiser was doing some considerable damage to it, or at least damage that was concerning for the Tech priests on board. In reality, the damage might have been minor considering the miracles of technology it had within.

In fact, the conversation between the Tech Priest and the Speranza itself does show this. The Speranza itself showed little concern for the damage, the damage was really only a threat to the people who were onboard. The Tech Priest had to convince the Ark to set aside its indifference to the attacks and take out the Eldar vessel.

So yes, the Eldar ship was a threat to at least the Speranza's crew. perhaps not to the ship itself's existence, but definitely to the Mechanicus force inside it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are ignoring the facts that were stated in that book. The Speranza is ~20km long...

Can you please give me a page number for that? I don't remember the book ever explicitly stating that. If you cannot then it is just headcanon on your part.

My assumption that the Speranza was in the 5-7KM range (possibly up to 12 KM in light of the quote posted by Bharring) is a much more credible guess considering the numbers from the BFG sourcebooks.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Why can't the robot weld the aquila on by itself?
Why would a thinking machine ever let itself be put into a predicament where people or techpriests have to examine and possibly tamper with its innards?
Why would it not murder these people at the first chance it gets and quickly make an escape?
How the hell do you transfer your sentience/intelligence into another physical unit without the necessary parts to run an A.I.? This is 40K, and DAoT technology can't just be found willy nilly. For a new unit, the robot would need a workshop where he can gather, build, and scrap all the parts necessary, assemble them, and quite likely, he'll need a significant amount of energy transferred to the new frame.

My assumption is that the appearance of UR-025 is a disguise. Rather like Flere-Imsaho in Player of Games, who is forced to wear a "shell" to disguise its genuine appearance and level of technological sophistication from the Azadian Empire, I think UR-025 has spent the last 15,000 years constructing a shell to hide its nature from those who would try to destroy it.

"more credible guess considering the numbers from the BFG sourcebooks."
12 KM is possible, sure. We don't know. But the BFG sourcebooks aren't as relevant as you suggest. The Speranza was explicitly not an "average" Ark Mechanicus. The Speranza is an 'Ark Mechnaicus' in the fluff, where it's a distinction given, not a class. The BFG sourcebook specify a class for it's purposes, but does not specify that the Speranza is a member of that class.

Consider the fluff of the Farseer. The average Farseer lives longer than the average Eldar (despite it being a terminal condition) according to some fluff. So they could be thousands of years old. Any range given for Farseer ages would certainly not include 10 thousand years of age. But Eldrad is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Eldar thinking a typical Eldar Cruiser could destroy an IoM vessel much larger than it:

1. IoM vessels - without DAoT - can Extermiantus planets - things much larger than they are. Why would Eldar vessels not also have firepower that, if unapposed, could destroy a vessel larger than it?

2. Smaller vessels can destroy larger vessels "all the time". Now, it doesn't happen all the time, but then we don't have war between naval powers frequently.
Look at the Falklands war, the last one I can think of where naval resources actually engaged eachother:
-The 300-ft HMS Conquereror sank the 600-ft General Belgrano
-The Alferez Sobral, 143 ft long, was badly damaged by two helicopters
-The Sheffield, 400 ft long, was lost to a single Exorcist missile, launched from an aircraft. The aircraft that launched it was 77 ft long.

In each of these cases, a much smaller vehicle defeated a much larger vehicle. And without anywhere near the technical advantage the Eldar would have believed they had.

3. You're banking durability keeping pace with destructive potential as tech advances. I'd argue that the exact opposite is strongly suggested by history.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"BFG source books put the size of at least one Ark Mechanicus at 5-7 KM. It is possible the Speranza is a Special snowflake that was bigger, but I doubt that it was as large as a Gloriana. Not only does it not mesh with the descriptions in the story, it makes no sense why the eldar would send a 5KM long cruiser to take it on alone and expect it to win (the farseer was shocked when it didn't... a farseer who had experience fighting the Imperium)."

BFG sourcebooks list the length of a "typical" Ark Mechanicus. The Speranza was *not* built to Ark Mechanicus specs. The Mechanicus didn't exist yet in any form when it *was* built. Look at it this way: you're searching for an STC. You're allowed to requisition any ship in the Mechanicus fleet to be the ship you use to do the search. You come across a ship that's, lets say, 8km long. You add it to Mechanicus resources. Would you then not be allowed to make it an Ark Mechanicus why?

The 5-7km might be the typical. It's the general range for Ark Mechanicuses. It's not a limit on the size an Ark Mechanicus can be in fluff. It might be used for rules on the tabletop. Look at it this way: an Imperial Guard trooper has a bs4+. I'm sure there is a guardsman in the fluff who is a much better shot than the average Vet, who has a bs3+. The rules still list Guardman bs as a 4+, because that's the typical, and that's how the game is written.

Similarly, an IG Captain has two arms. That's the spec. At least once in the galaxy, an IG Captain has one arm. Because he lost it in action or something. I can't cite, but it's obvious enough.

As for the cruiser it's width fully eclipsed, it belonged to a class of cruisers, and I read that IoM cruisers were typically 4-6 KM long.

There's no fluff that says the Speranz isn't massively larger than 5-7km. There's a lot of fluff that suggests it is.

As for the topic of space speeds by volume: we don't know what the future holds. Larger vessels are likely to be able to fit more engines per volume, yes. So a higher top speed might be likely. But maneuverability will be capped by structural integrety - which will decrease by volume over area. Giving the smaller ship the advantage. So the larger vessel *may* have higher base speed, but is very likely to accelerate/maneuver much slower.

However, maneuverability isn't the sole reason aircraft take out ships. It's because weapons packages that threaten an asset tend to come in much smaller sizes than the assets they threaten. An individual with an RPG can threaten a semi. An inflatable raft with an anti-ship missile mounted on it can threaten a capital ship.

The idea that a Cruiser couldn't threaten a Dreadnaught is silly. Even at pairity tech levels, if the Cruiser could assume an unimpeded alpha, it should assume it will win the fight. Now, recall that the Eldar had cloaking, which they believed sufficient. Also, recall that the Eldar did not know that the Dreadnaught was a DAoT vessel. Also, recall that the Eldar in y40k know their tech is well beyond IoM tech. Also, remember that Eldar are arrogance taken to the max. Also, remember that the CWE forces are spread increadibly thinly, and don't do pitched battles when they can avoid it. Finally, recall that we did not see what impact that Cruiser's weapons *would* have had on the Sperenza. It seems *very likely* that the CWE would send a single Cruiser in this situation to destroy what they thought was just some oversided IoM clunker.

The Speranza was the size of a small moon, big enough to have its own gravity well. The Eldar strike cruiser was not attempting to destroy it directly, they were attempting to cripple the colossus in the middle of the storm with hit and run attacks. They had not expected the Speranza to possess the targeting technology and weapons that could hit their cruiser in the conditions of the storm, and neither had the AdMech and Imperial personnel manning the Speranza. The Eldar did not know that the Speranza was a DAoT vessel, and even if they had known they likely would not have known what the DAoT was, and even if they had known that, they likely would not have believed that Human DAoT technology could ever surpass any Eldar technology, not even the relatively primitive technologies (by Eldar standards) of the Craftworlds.

It was the Phalanx that was the size of a small moon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Runes and chant liturgies are only used after standard procedures fail or to ensure it works without failure, they still physically make and repair machinery.. And nowhere does it say 'looking under the hood' is blasphemy, you can take as many quotes of of context as you want, still wont be right. How did they make the repulsor, they didn't just throw runes at lumps of ceremite and hope for it to build itself.

I'm not sure why you believe the quotes are out of context. They are literally repair rites used by the Ad Mech.

As for making things, they use mass crowds of slaves to make parts, then put them together in the prescribed fashion according to the holy texts* with the correct liturgy and sacrifices.

*meaning STC templates, which are simplified to the point that you can slap a vehicle together out of any available material.


Technology as religious ritual and lack of scientific understanding are major themes of the setting. I have no idea why you're scoffing at the idea.

They are out of context because you are using those to show that they never look under the hood, which is wrong they only use those rites when they have failed in trying to fix it. I'm scoffing because you think that they just pray in order to fix things.

Well, wouldn't it be Ur's Magos who's supposed to be looking under the hood. If he's got documentation that he's up to date on his rituals and inspections...

Bharring wrote:
Well, wouldn't it be Ur's Magos who's supposed to be looking under the hood. If he's got documentation that he's up to date on his rituals and inspections...

That's not the point, he's saying that they are not allowed to look under the hood and that rituals and runes are only used to fix things, he thinks they just sing and pray to stuff for it to get fixed.

Bharring wrote:
1. IoM vessels - without DAoT - can Extermiantus planets - things much larger than they are. Why would Eldar vessels not also have firepower that, if unapposed, could destroy a vessel larger than it?

Firstly, you are laboring under some incorrect assumptions. Only the largest IOM vessels are capable of affecting exterminatus. Secondly, exterminatus doesn't mean the planet gets blown up death star style, merely that the surface in rendered uninhabitable due to virus bombs, or the atmosphere igniting due to cyclonic torpedoes. Even the largest IOM vessels do not have the firepower to crack a planet unless there are a LOT of them.

Bharring wrote:
2. Smaller vessels can destroy larger vessels "all the time". Now, it doesn't happen all the time, but then we don't have war between naval powers frequently.
Look at the Falklands war, the last one I can think of where naval resources actually engaged eachother:
-The 300-ft HMS Conquereror sank the 600-ft General Belgrano
-The Alferez Sobral, 143 ft long, was badly damaged by two helicopters
-The Sheffield, 400 ft long, was lost to a single Exorcist missile, launched from an aircraft. The aircraft that launched it was 77 ft long.

In each of these cases, a much smaller vehicle defeated a much larger vehicle. And without anywhere near the technical advantage the Eldar would have believed they had.

You would be correct if we were talking about ships with sizes comparable to modern day ships. You are forgetting about the square cubed law, which states that as a ships size doubles, its internal volume is multiplied by 8. Simply put, ships at those sizes have so much more mass in relation to their surface area than modern surface ships do.

Let me put it this way... assuming that a 20KM dreadnought dedicated the same proportion of internal space to power generation as a 5KM cruiser, it would have 64x times the power output without even taking into account the efficiency gains from having a larger reactor (which are a real thing and could push the power generation difference to as high as 512x). Such power differences, when channeled into shields means that a singular one of these cruisers cannot even breach the shield of a dreadnought if it was just sitting there letting the cruiser pound on it, because the power being put into these shields is an order of magnitude higher (even when taking into account larger surface area of shields) than the cruiser can output in weapons energy. Now, stored energy weapons are a thing (like torpedoes), and there is a tech disparity between IOM ships and Eldar ones, but it makes a smaller ship taking on a larger one in space combat a distinctly unwise prospect due to sheer size alone.

The larger ship doesn't even have to have weapons, if it is faster or has better acceleration than the smaller ship (a likely prospect due to the aforementioned energy generation difference) it can just ram the smaller ship and expect to remain intact due to the aforementioned strength of its void shields or relying on its mass and momentum to keep it intact. This is a tactic that orks use to great effect.

A 5KM Eldar cruiser taking on a 20KM IOM dreadnought alone with both combatants at full capacity is simply not a possibility outside of some really clever maneuvering to get the dreadnought in a situation where her shields were down or something, even with the tech disparity. Like I said, the Eldar are arrogant but not stupid.

"Firstly, you are laboring under some incorrect assumptions. Only the largest IOM vessels are capable of affecting exterminatus. Secondly, exterminatus doesn't mean the planet gets blown up death star style, merely that the surface in rendered uninhabitable due to virus bombs, or the atmosphere igniting due to cyclonic torpedoes. Even the largest IOM vessels do not have the firepower to crack a planet unless there are a LOT of them. "
Battle Barges and Battleships are typically used for Exterminatuses. 6-8KM long ships, typically. However, it's usually done by torpedo - which could be fired from almost anything. Granted, a virus torpedo might not do anything to a warship, but a Cyclonic Torpedo would. So if a 6-8km long IoM ship can destroy all life on a planet - including any fortifications there - how would a 20km long ship survive?

And, if that's what "modern" IoM can do, what can Eldar do?

"You are forgetting about the square cubed law, which states that as a ships size doubles, its internal volume is multiplied by 8."
I'm not forgetting. When it's size doubles on *one* axis, it's volume goes up by a factor of 8. But the relative ratios betwween a 20km ship and a 7km ship seem relatively similar to those between a 400ft ship and a 77ft ship.

A field force requires power at the cube of the distance from it's generator. So if you have a distance-cubed amount of power generation, your field force - such as a force field - would require a distance-cubed amount of power to power the field. There might be efficiencies in size allowing for some increase in power generation in the larger ship, but the volume that gives you more power also increases your need for power by the same factor.

" Such power differences, when channeled into shields means that a singular one of these cruisers cannot even breach the shield of a dreadnought if it was just sitting there letting the cruiser pound on it, because the power being put into these shields is an order of magnitude higher (even when taking into account larger surface area of shields) than the cruiser can output in weapons energy."
That's basically a leap of faith. You're assuming that it takes an equal amount of energy to enforce equilibrium as it would take to destabilize equilibrium. You're also assuming the Eldar believed the IoM had parity in construction, shield tech, and weapons tech - something they would never believe.

"The larger ship doesn't even have to have weapons, if it is faster or has better acceleration than the smaller ship (a likely prospect due to the aforementioned energy generation difference) it can just ram the smaller ship and expect to remain intact due to the aforementioned strength of its void shields or relying on its mass and momentum to keep it intact. This is a tactic that orks use to great effect. "
A larger ship attempting to ram a smaller ship is also ramming every part of it's own ship in the same action. Even before collision with the smaller ship.
Acceleration requires an equal amount of energy for each unit of mass. A larger ship may increase energy generation at pace with it's volume - which is a cubic relationship with it's length - but also needs increased energy at pace with it's mass - which tracks at least at, and usually higher than, it's volume.

This energy is typically generated across a ship's surface area opposite the direction it wishes to travel. So the usable surface area only grows with the square of size. Further, that energy must be distrubted across the ship. So the entire ship must bear the brunt of the acceleration. So the ship takes continual strain as it accelerates. Enduring that strain is a constant based on the building material and style: while the strain grows with size, what it can endure does not.

So the smaller vehicle is likely to have the same power/mass ratio. However, it's likely able to convert that power to thrust more efficiently, as it has a better mass/surface area (directional or not) ratio. Finally, whatever the cap on acceleration the structure allows for, the smaller vessel can reach much higher acceleration rates while staying under that stress.

The larger ship is likely to have a faster top speed. But the smaller ship is almost certain to accelerate or maneuver faster. There is no reason to believe the larger ship can accelerate/maneuver as well.

"A 5KM Eldar cruiser taking on a 20KM IOM dreadnought alone with both combatants at full capacity is simply not a possibility outside of some really clever maneuvering to get the dreadnought in a situation where her shields were down or something, even with the tech disparity. Like I said, the Eldar are arrogant but not stupid."
If an Argentineinan 77ft plane can beat a 400ft UK ship of war - and one designed to stop said plain and the weapon type it was using - in the 80s, it seems silly to think no Eldar leader would think a 5km Eldar cruiser with the advantages of better tech, stealth, and weird cloud/storm/whatever effects could take on a 20km IoM dreadnaught.

If a 15ft missile can threaten a contemporary 400ft long warship, why wouldn't Eldar have something similar? And if so, why couldn't they arm a 7km long ship with one that threatens a 20km ship?

If IoM can Exterminatus worlds with things like Cyclonic Torpedos, why can't Eldar do something similar?

I don't think you get just how vulnerable a large construct is. Just how much easier it is to destroy than to protect. Just how complex scaling forces are.

I think the admech sing and pray while they fix stuff. But because they have to. That’s how you fix it. The ritual is as important as turning the screw or tightening the nut. In all the books even the lowest grunts pray to appease the machine spirit while they tinker so as not anger it or upset it. It’s like taking communion without the ceremony.

Bharring wrote:
"Firstly, you are laboring under some incorrect assumptions. Only the largest IOM vessels are capable of affecting exterminatus. Secondly, exterminatus doesn't mean the planet gets blown up death star style, merely that the surface in rendered uninhabitable due to virus bombs, or the atmosphere igniting due to cyclonic torpedoes. Even the largest IOM vessels do not have the firepower to crack a planet unless there are a LOT of them. "
Battle Barges and Battleships are typically used for Exterminatuses. 6-8KM long ships, typically. However, it's usually done by torpedo - which could be fired from almost anything. Granted, a virus torpedo might not do anything to a warship, but a Cyclonic Torpedo would. So if a 6-8km long IoM ship can destroy all life on a planet - including any fortifications there - how would a 20km long ship survive?

And, if that's what "modern" IoM can do, what can Eldar do?

"You are forgetting about the square cubed law, which states that as a ships size doubles, its internal volume is multiplied by 8."
I'm not forgetting. When it's size doubles on *one* axis, it's volume goes up by a factor of 8. But the relative ratios betwween a 20km ship and a 7km ship seem relatively similar to those between a 400ft ship and a 77ft ship.

A field force requires power at the cube of the distance from it's generator. So if you have a distance-cubed amount of power generation, your field force - such as a force field - would require a distance-cubed amount of power to power the field. There might be efficiencies in size allowing for some increase in power generation in the larger ship, but the volume that gives you more power also increases your need for power by the same factor.

" Such power differences, when channeled into shields means that a singular one of these cruisers cannot even breach the shield of a dreadnought if it was just sitting there letting the cruiser pound on it, because the power being put into these shields is an order of magnitude higher (even when taking into account larger surface area of shields) than the cruiser can output in weapons energy."
That's basically a leap of faith. You're assuming that it takes an equal amount of energy to enforce equilibrium as it would take to destabilize equilibrium. You're also assuming the Eldar believed the IoM had parity in construction, shield tech, and weapons tech - something they would never believe.

"The larger ship doesn't even have to have weapons, if it is faster or has better acceleration than the smaller ship (a likely prospect due to the aforementioned energy generation difference) it can just ram the smaller ship and expect to remain intact due to the aforementioned strength of its void shields or relying on its mass and momentum to keep it intact. This is a tactic that orks use to great effect. "
A larger ship attempting to ram a smaller ship is also ramming every part of it's own ship in the same action. Even before collision with the smaller ship.
Acceleration requires an equal amount of energy for each unit of mass. A larger ship may increase energy generation at pace with it's volume - which is a cubic relationship with it's length - but also needs increased energy at pace with it's mass - which tracks at least at, and usually higher than, it's volume.

This energy is typically generated across a ship's surface area opposite the direction it wishes to travel. So the usable surface area only grows with the square of size. Further, that energy must be distrubted across the ship. So the entire ship must bear the brunt of the acceleration. So the ship takes continual strain as it accelerates. Enduring that strain is a constant based on the building material and style: while the strain grows with size, what it can endure does not.

So the smaller vehicle is likely to have the same power/mass ratio. However, it's likely able to convert that power to thrust more efficiently, as it has a better mass/surface area (directional or not) ratio. Finally, whatever the cap on acceleration the structure allows for, the smaller vessel can reach much higher acceleration rates while staying under that stress.

The larger ship is likely to have a faster top speed. But the smaller ship is almost certain to accelerate or maneuver faster. There is no reason to believe the larger ship can accelerate/maneuver as well.

"A 5KM Eldar cruiser taking on a 20KM IOM dreadnought alone with both combatants at full capacity is simply not a possibility outside of some really clever maneuvering to get the dreadnought in a situation where her shields were down or something, even with the tech disparity. Like I said, the Eldar are arrogant but not stupid."
If an Argentineinan 77ft plane can beat a 400ft UK ship of war - and one designed to stop said plain and the weapon type it was using - in the 80s, it seems silly to think no Eldar leader would think a 5km Eldar cruiser with the advantages of better tech, stealth, and weird cloud/storm/whatever effects could take on a 20km IoM dreadnaught.

If a 15ft missile can threaten a contemporary 400ft long warship, why wouldn't Eldar have something similar? And if so, why couldn't they arm a 7km long ship with one that threatens a 20km ship?

If IoM can Exterminatus worlds with things like Cyclonic Torpedos, why can't Eldar do something similar?

I don't think you get just how vulnerable a large construct is. Just how much easier it is to destroy than to protect. Just how complex scaling forces are.

Its volume would be increased by the the increase in dimensions cubed, only a cube's dimensions multiplied by 2 would be 8, its volume is not multiplied by 8 and that is only true if the object is increasing with the same density.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

Bharring wrote:
1. IoM vessels - without DAoT - can Extermiantus planets - things much larger than they are. Why would Eldar vessels not also have firepower that, if unapposed, could destroy a vessel larger than it?

Firstly, you are laboring under some incorrect assumptions. Only the largest IOM vessels are capable of affecting exterminatus. Secondly, exterminatus doesn't mean the planet gets blown up death star style, merely that the surface in rendered uninhabitable due to virus bombs, or the atmosphere igniting due to cyclonic torpedoes. Even the largest IOM vessels do not have the firepower to crack a planet unless there are a LOT of them.

Bharring wrote:
2. Smaller vessels can destroy larger vessels "all the time". Now, it doesn't happen all the time, but then we don't have war between naval powers frequently.
Look at the Falklands war, the last one I can think of where naval resources actually engaged eachother:
-The 300-ft HMS Conquereror sank the 600-ft General Belgrano
-The Alferez Sobral, 143 ft long, was badly damaged by two helicopters
-The Sheffield, 400 ft long, was lost to a single Exorcist missile, launched from an aircraft. The aircraft that launched it was 77 ft long.

In each of these cases, a much smaller vehicle defeated a much larger vehicle. And without anywhere near the technical advantage the Eldar would have believed they had.

You would be correct if we were talking about ships with sizes comparable to modern day ships. You are forgetting about the square cubed law, which states that as a ships size doubles, its internal volume is multiplied by 8. Simply put, ships at those sizes have so much more mass in relation to their surface area than modern surface ships do.

Let me put it this way... assuming that a 20KM dreadnought dedicated the same proportion of internal space to power generation as a 5KM cruiser, it would have 64x times the power output without even taking into account the efficiency gains from having a larger reactor (which are a real thing and could push the power generation difference to as high as 512x). Such power differences, when channeled into shields means that a singular one of these cruisers cannot even breach the shield of a dreadnought if it was just sitting there letting the cruiser pound on it, because the power being put into these shields is an order of magnitude higher (even when taking into account larger surface area of shields) than the cruiser can output in weapons energy. Now, stored energy weapons are a thing (like torpedoes), and there is a tech disparity between IOM ships and Eldar ones, but it makes a smaller ship taking on a larger one in space combat a distinctly unwise prospect due to sheer size alone.

The larger ship doesn't even have to have weapons, if it is faster or has better acceleration than the smaller ship (a likely prospect due to the aforementioned energy generation difference) it can just ram the smaller ship and expect to remain intact due to the aforementioned strength of its void shields or relying on its mass and momentum to keep it intact. This is a tactic that orks use to great effect.

A 5KM Eldar cruiser taking on a 20KM IOM dreadnought alone with both combatants at full capacity is simply not a possibility outside of some really clever maneuvering to get the dreadnought in a situation where her shields were down or something, even with the tech disparity. Like I said, the Eldar are arrogant but not stupid.

Its increase in dimensions is cubed the number 2 is not cubed that is an arbitrary number.

Bharring wrote:
Battle Barges and Battleships are typically used for Exterminatuses. 6-8KM long ships, typically. However, it's usually done by torpedo - which could be fired from almost anything. Granted, a virus torpedo might not do anything to a warship, but a Cyclonic Torpedo would. So if a 6-8km long IoM ship can destroy all life on a planet - including any fortifications there - how would a 20km long ship survive?

A cyclonic torpedo wouldn't do anything to a ship, considering that its sole purpose is to ignite an atmosphere, not act as a huge bomb.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not forgetting. When it's size doubles on *one* axis, it's volume goes up by a factor of 8. But the relative ratios betwween a 20km ship and a 7km ship seem relatively similar to those between a 400ft ship and a 77ft ship.

The proportions are similar, but the SIZES are not. A 100m cube has a 984,375 m^3 volume advantage over a 25m cube. A 20KM cube has a 7,850,000,000,000 m^3 volume advantage over a 5KM cube. See the difference?

Bharring wrote:
A field force requires power at the cube of the distance from it's generator.

This is pretty much a guess on your part, you don't know how much power it takes to generate a shield of X size. It could be logarithmic for all you know and bigger shields are actually more energy efficient than smaller shields.

Bharring wrote:
That's basically a leap of faith. You're assuming that it takes an equal amount of energy to enforce equilibrium as it would take to destabilize equilibrium.

Unless it is greater than a 1/64 ratio I am still correct. And if it is greater than a 1/64 ratio shields would be useless on larger ships because it would use more power to protect less, and nobody would use them, a ships shields would get worse the larger it got no matter how much power you pumped into it.

Bharring wrote:
You're also assuming the Eldar believed the IoM had parity in construction, shield tech, and weapons tech - something they would never believe.

Unless you are making the argument that Eldar power generation technology is roughly 8 times better than IOM tech per size, this argument falls flat. I do not believe the tech parity is that wide considering Eldar naval vessel depiction in the BFG lore.

Bharring wrote:
A larger ship attempting to ram a smaller ship is also ramming every part of it's own ship in the same action. Even before collision with the smaller ship.
Acceleration requires an equal amount of energy for each unit of mass. A larger ship may increase energy generation at pace with it's volume - which is a cubic relationship with it's length - but also needs increased energy at pace with it's mass - which tracks at least at, and usually higher than, it's volume.

You are forgetting energy efficiency boosts for larger reactors, which are a real thing even today. You are also assuming thrust scales linearly with engine size.

Bharring wrote:
The larger ship is likely to have a faster top speed. But the smaller ship is almost certain to accelerate or maneuver faster. There is no reason to believe the larger ship can accelerate/maneuver as well.

Again, these are completely incorrect assumptions.

Bharring wrote:
If an Argentineinan 77ft plane can beat a 400ft UK ship of war - and one designed to stop said plain and the weapon type it was using - in the 80s, it seems silly to think no Eldar leader would think a 5km Eldar cruiser with the advantages of better tech, stealth, and weird cloud/storm/whatever effects could take on a 20km IoM dreadnaught.

If a 15ft missile can threaten a contemporary 400ft long warship, why wouldn't Eldar have something similar? And if so, why couldn't they arm a 7km long ship with one that threatens a 20km ship?

You keep making comparisons to modern day naval warfare, when those comparisons aren't accurate at all. Both the sizes and the environments involved are totally different.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its increase in dimensions is cubed the number 2 is not cubed that is an arbitrary number.

Someone doesn't understand basic math.

V=L*W*H

An object twice as large has 8 times the volume.

8V=2L*2W*2H