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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sign me up for Codex Rogue traders and Codex: Robotica Imperialis/Men of Iron.

You mean Codex: Astra Cartographica?

"Codex: Traders Militant" to go with the 30k list for them we never got.

Could basically do this with Imperialis Militia.

Afterthoughts: I've always wondered if the Emperor of 30k ever remembered his father and mother, or thought about them

It's questionable if he even had parents. My impression was the Shamans just collectively reincarnated on the spot, so you've got a baby/young man lying in a ring of corpses.

I'm more puzzled by the DAoT being powerful somehow threatens the Fall narrative. I'm unclear why either species would care.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
DAOT Man was so powerful that they owned a billion more worlds than they do in 40,000. They terraformed planets at will, and settled hundreds of colonies every Terran year, thanks to the help of the STC. They were so strong that the Eldar considered them equals and traded with them, recognizing them as sovereign nations. They were so strong that Orks signed treaties and ceasefires with them. Ork Infestations at the height of mans power was a trivial matter at best. Thanks to the STC. With it, even the most primitive colonies could field the firepower, munitions, and war machines of an entire army. I suspect that colonies didn't actually finish the fights though, they simply needed to hold off the infestation until back up arrived, much like how the Imperium handles attacks today. Only they did it much more efficiently and effectively.

No.

LightKing wrote:
is Roboute going to interact with this MoI ? would be quite interesting?

Sure, that would be One thing you'd like to see...

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sign me up for Codex Rogue traders and Codex: Robotica Imperialis/Men of Iron.

Yeah, I like both options! Especially MoI!

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I don't see how. The Eldar of the Eldar Empire did not really care about anyone but themselves. There is little reason for them to bother with something as degrading as waging war with and exterminating an inferior species such as the Orks (which also are notoriously difficult to exterminate). Those species are so far beneath the Eldar they do not deserve even the small fraction of Eldar attention and effort that exterminating them would require. They had already been pushed to the fringes of the galaxy beyond Eldar space, they were no longer a threat. Why bother exterminating them?

You're applying Fall Eldar views to pre Fall Eldar there. They were definitely a potential threat, the most sensible reason they aren't dead is that the Eldar couldn't and while that's the view I like most it doesn't hold up if they're incredibly OP. You need a limit. It's why Necrons being able to time travel without significant risk is silly.

There is no such thing as "Fall Eldar". There is only pre-Fall and post-Fall, and pre-Fall Eldar were much more arrogant and dismissive than the post-Fall Eldar. They had robotic constructs take care of everything for them and cared only about engaging in debauchery. There may be an even more distant past in the early days of the Eldar Empire when they were still expanding and they were less arrogant and complacent, but that has never been mentioned in the fluff. And certainly that time would have been long before Humans even developed spaceflight, let alone the DAoT. So Humans meeting these more active early Eldar is not an issue.
And you are not thinking like a pre-Fall Eldar here. You are the most superior species the universe has ever seen, you rule the galaxy and all other species are but gnats and not worthy of your divine attention. Why would you bother exterminating a bunch of filthy green-skinned barbarians. They are crude and primitive compared to the splendour of your people, their military power insignificant next to the legions of constructs that defend the border worlds. Any attack they launch is obliterated before the Eldar even notice they are being attacked. Why would you grace such an insignificant species with the attention that is required to exterminate them? They do not deserve your attention or resources. As far as you are concerned they do not even exist.
The Orks were no threat to the Eldar Empire at its height. They only became a threat after the Fall again, but most pre-Fall Eldar in their arrogance would have thought that their Empire falling would be impossible, and therefore not recognise the potential threat that the Orks posed. It was only the Exodites and Craftworlders who recognised their threat, but they were ignored by the rest of the Empire.

Druggies are known for their objective reasoning.

 Grimtuff wrote:

LightKing wrote:
is Roboute going to interact with this MoI ? would be quite interesting?

Sure, that would be One thing you'd like to see...

I see what ya did thar

 Crimson wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
DAOT Man was so powerful that they owned a billion more worlds than they do in 40,000. They terraformed planets at will, and settled hundreds of colonies every Terran year, thanks to the help of the STC. They were so strong that the Eldar considered them equals and traded with them, recognizing them as sovereign nations. They were so strong that Orks signed treaties and ceasefires with them. Ork Infestations at the height of mans power was a trivial matter at best. Thanks to the STC. With it, even the most primitive colonies could field the firepower, munitions, and war machines of an entire army. I suspect that colonies didn't actually finish the fights though, they simply needed to hold off the infestation until back up arrived, much like how the Imperium handles attacks today. Only they did it much more efficiently and effectively.

No.

He is right. Every bit of lore I have ever read about DAoT humans was that they were on par with, or close behind the Eldar Empire at its height. In a recent novel, an old DAoT ship that the 40k mechanicus finds and refurbishes, blows away an eldar strike cruiser like it was nothing.

The only reason that the DAoT humans fell into barbarism was because of the rebellion of the men of iron. Humans came to depend on AI, and having that yanked out from underneath them weakened them significantly. The DAoT humans ended up winning against the iron men after a long and gruesome war, but were left so weakened afterward that they could not fight off their alien allies turning on them. All of the alien races that humanity had allied with or had ceasefire treaties with turned on humanity at the same time because they were all terrified of us and realized that the weakened state of humanity was the only real chance they were going to get to eliminate us as a threat.

This is why the emperor was so hard up about exterminating all xenos, regardless if they were actively hostile to humanity or not. We had been burned before by aliens and almost wiped out, and that was NEVER going to happen again. The DAoT and humanity's betrayal at the hands of its xeno "allies" proved that the only race that humans could trust were other humans.

Really, the xenos of the galaxy had only themselves to blame for the great crusade and the resultant xenocide.

Just no. Humans were never close to Eldar and Eldar certainly never considered them as equals, or even as threats. If they had, humans would be no more.

 Crimson wrote:
Just no. Humans were never close to Eldar and Eldar certainly never considered them as equals, or even as threats. If they had, humans would be no more.

The eldar didn't care about anything outside of their corner of the galaxy. Do you think the orks would still exist anywhere if the eldar empire at its height wanted them gone? No.

The reason humanity was able to get so strong was that the eldar considered us beneath them, regardless of how true or not that actually was. And humanity collapsing into barbarism shortly before the fall just proved their point to them.

Eldar considered humans beneath them because they were. Humans and Orks were just wild beast to them and they didn't bother to exterminate them because they were not a threat. If humans could have actually challenged the Eldar fall would not have happened, as that would have required the Eldar to shift gears from their hedonistic navel-gazing.

In general the depictions of DAOT humanity have been a subject some serious power creep, especially in the Black Libraries books.

Older studio lore, for example, describes Predator as humanities main battle tank, that now only Space Marines can use effectively due to lack some of the more advanced gubbins.

Newer Black Library lore on the other hand has humanities pockets bursting with Saturn's ring-sized, star killing, serpent robots and planet eating robots, that also eat spacetime continuum itself.

 Crimson wrote:
Eldar considered humans beneath them because they were. Humans and Orks were just wild beast to them and they didn't bother to exterminate them because they were not a threat. If humans could have actually challenged the Eldar fall would not have happened, as that would have required the Eldar to shift gears from their hedonistic navel-gazing.

From the point of view of the virtually immortal Eldar and their ancient Empire, the Humans and their Dark Age of Technology was but a brief flash. Humans developed space travel, expanded and collapsed all in the space of a few thousand years (Warp Drive invented in M18, collapse in M23), which by Eldar standards must have been but a brief, barely noticeable moment (the Eldar Empire was millions of years old by that point). The Humans may have developed technology that rivaled that of the Eldar in that moment, but because they collapsed almost instantaneously the Eldar may never have become concerned about it. It seems also highly unlikely that in all those millions of years that the Eldar Empire existed, Humans were the only other civilisation to ever rise. Seeing Alien races like the Humans rise and fall was probably something the Eldar were accustomed to. Finally, even if the Humans at their height could have challenged the Eldar technologically, there is no indication that they were ever planning to do so. From what little we can gather from the fluff it appears that Eldar-Human relations were mostly peaceful, both races preferring to stick to their own corner of the galaxy rather than engage in an all-out war with the other.
So yes, Humans were far beneath the Eldar, but that does not preclude them from having developed technology that was almost on an equal level. Just having that technology did not automatically make them a threat to the Eldar because of their quick collapse and lack of hostile intentions.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In general the depictions of DAOT humanity have been a subject some serious power creep, especially in the Black Libraries books.

Older studio lore, for example, describes Predator as humanities main battle tank, that now only Space Marines can use effectively due to lack some of the more advanced gubbins.

Newer Black Library lore on the other hand has humanities pockets bursting with Saturn's ring-sized, star killing, serpent robots and planet eating robots, that also eat spacetime continuum itself.

It could be reconciled though. It may be that those really advanced technologies were rarities, with the majority of Humanity still making do with much lower tech weapons and equipment. Then again, 40k as a whole has been subject to power creep. The Predator used to be one of the most advanced, powerful and valuable tanks in existence. Nowadays it is a relatively common light tank that has been eclipsed in power and 'advanced-ness' by pretty much every vehicle released since then.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In general the depictions of DAOT humanity have been a subject some serious power creep, especially in the Black Libraries books.

Older studio lore, for example, describes Predator as humanities main battle tank, that now only Space Marines can use effectively due to lack some of the more advanced gubbins.

Newer Black Library lore on the other hand has humanities pockets bursting with Saturn's ring-sized, star killing, serpent robots and planet eating robots, that also eat spacetime continuum itself.

People always complain about the codex power creep, but the codex writers have nothing on the BL guys!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I don't see how. The Eldar of the Eldar Empire did not really care about anyone but themselves. There is little reason for them to bother with something as degrading as waging war with and exterminating an inferior species such as the Orks (which also are notoriously difficult to exterminate). Those species are so far beneath the Eldar they do not deserve even the small fraction of Eldar attention and effort that exterminating them would require. They had already been pushed to the fringes of the galaxy beyond Eldar space, they were no longer a threat. Why bother exterminating them?

You're applying Fall Eldar views to pre Fall Eldar there. They were definitely a potential threat, the most sensible reason they aren't dead is that the Eldar couldn't and while that's the view I like most it doesn't hold up if they're incredibly OP. You need a limit. It's why Necrons being able to time travel without significant risk is silly.

There is no such thing as "Fall Eldar". There is only pre-Fall and post-Fall, and pre-Fall Eldar were much more arrogant and dismissive than the post-Fall Eldar. They had robotic constructs take care of everything for them and cared only about engaging in debauchery. There may be an even more distant past in the early days of the Eldar Empire when they were still expanding and they were less arrogant and complacent, but that has never been mentioned in the fluff. And certainly that time would have been long before Humans even developed spaceflight, let alone the DAoT. So Humans meeting these more active early Eldar is not an issue.
And you are not thinking like a pre-Fall Eldar here. You are the most superior species the universe has ever seen, you rule the galaxy and all other species are but gnats and not worthy of your divine attention. Why would you bother exterminating a bunch of filthy green-skinned barbarians. They are crude and primitive compared to the splendour of your people, their military power insignificant next to the legions of constructs that defend the border worlds. Any attack they launch is obliterated before the Eldar even notice they are being attacked. Why would you grace such an insignificant species with the attention that is required to exterminate them? They do not deserve your attention or resources. As far as you are concerned they do not even exist.
The Orks were no threat to the Eldar Empire at its height. They only became a threat after the Fall again, but most pre-Fall Eldar in their arrogance would have thought that their Empire falling would be impossible, and therefore not recognise the potential threat that the Orks posed. It was only the Exodites and Craftworlders who recognised their threat, but they were ignored by the rest of the Empire.

That's really a gross simplification. The Fall wasn't a constant view point it developed after generations of Eldars fought, colonised and built across the galaxy. They're pre Fall Eldar. Fall Eldar are tje ones who had the idea they were beyond any dangers and could do whatever they wanted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
DAOT Man was so powerful that they owned a billion more worlds than they do in 40,000. They terraformed planets at will, and settled hundreds of colonies every Terran year, thanks to the help of the STC. They were so strong that the Eldar considered them equals and traded with them, recognizing them as sovereign nations. They were so strong that Orks signed treaties and ceasefires with them. Ork Infestations at the height of mans power was a trivial matter at best. Thanks to the STC. With it, even the most primitive colonies could field the firepower, munitions, and war machines of an entire army. I suspect that colonies didn't actually finish the fights though, they simply needed to hold off the infestation until back up arrived, much like how the Imperium handles attacks today. Only they did it much more efficiently and effectively.

No.

He is right. Every bit of lore I have ever read about DAoT humans was that they were on par with, or close behind the Eldar Empire at its height. In a recent novel, an old DAoT ship that the 40k mechanicus finds and refurbishes, blows away an eldar strike cruiser like it was nothing.

The only reason that the DAoT humans fell into barbarism was because of the rebellion of the men of iron. Humans came to depend on AI, and having that yanked out from underneath them weakened them significantly. The DAoT humans ended up winning against the iron men after a long and gruesome war, but were left so weakened afterward that they could not fight off their alien allies turning on them. All of the alien races that humanity had allied with or had ceasefire treaties with turned on humanity at the same time because they were all terrified of us and realized that the weakened state of humanity was the only real chance they were going to get to eliminate us as a threat.

This is why the emperor was so hard up about exterminating all xenos, regardless if they were actively hostile to humanity or not. We had been burned before by aliens and almost wiped out, and that was NEVER going to happen again. The DAoT and humanity's betrayal at the hands of its xeno "allies" proved that the only race that humans could trust were other humans.

Really, the xenos of the galaxy had only themselves to blame for the great crusade and the resultant xenocide.

He's really not. That story doesn't really justify the idea DAOT humans = Eldar Empire. It's like saying I can take out a cargo ship with some machine guns therefore I can destroy the most advanced military ship in the world. Some serious citation needed here.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I don't see how. The Eldar of the Eldar Empire did not really care about anyone but themselves. There is little reason for them to bother with something as degrading as waging war with and exterminating an inferior species such as the Orks (which also are notoriously difficult to exterminate). Those species are so far beneath the Eldar they do not deserve even the small fraction of Eldar attention and effort that exterminating them would require. They had already been pushed to the fringes of the galaxy beyond Eldar space, they were no longer a threat. Why bother exterminating them?

You're applying Fall Eldar views to pre Fall Eldar there. They were definitely a potential threat, the most sensible reason they aren't dead is that the Eldar couldn't and while that's the view I like most it doesn't hold up if they're incredibly OP. You need a limit. It's why Necrons being able to time travel without significant risk is silly.

There is no such thing as "Fall Eldar". There is only pre-Fall and post-Fall, and pre-Fall Eldar were much more arrogant and dismissive than the post-Fall Eldar. They had robotic constructs take care of everything for them and cared only about engaging in debauchery. There may be an even more distant past in the early days of the Eldar Empire when they were still expanding and they were less arrogant and complacent, but that has never been mentioned in the fluff. And certainly that time would have been long before Humans even developed spaceflight, let alone the DAoT. So Humans meeting these more active early Eldar is not an issue.
And you are not thinking like a pre-Fall Eldar here. You are the most superior species the universe has ever seen, you rule the galaxy and all other species are but gnats and not worthy of your divine attention. Why would you bother exterminating a bunch of filthy green-skinned barbarians. They are crude and primitive compared to the splendour of your people, their military power insignificant next to the legions of constructs that defend the border worlds. Any attack they launch is obliterated before the Eldar even notice they are being attacked. Why would you grace such an insignificant species with the attention that is required to exterminate them? They do not deserve your attention or resources. As far as you are concerned they do not even exist.
The Orks were no threat to the Eldar Empire at its height. They only became a threat after the Fall again, but most pre-Fall Eldar in their arrogance would have thought that their Empire falling would be impossible, and therefore not recognise the potential threat that the Orks posed. It was only the Exodites and Craftworlders who recognised their threat, but they were ignored by the rest of the Empire.

That's really a gross simplification. The Fall wasn't a constant view point it developed after generations of Eldars fought, colonised and built across the galaxy. They're pre Fall Eldar. Fall Eldar are tje ones who had the idea they were beyond any dangers and could do whatever they wanted.

No, what you mean would be Pre-Empire Eldar, or Early-Empire Eldar. Those lived millions of years before Humans even evolved. By the point Humanity's Age of Technology comes by the Eldar Empire is already ancient beyond comprehension and has been stagnant and slowly sliding into ever greater hedonism and debauchery for millions of years. The events that led to the Fall were already set in motion before Humans ever came along, and it is highly unlikely those puny, brief hairless monkeys would have been able to change anything about it, no matter their technology. The Eldar were already way too far gone.

I always found it funny that people found DAoT humans and MoI too powerful. Does it matter if you can field several star killer weapons when you're using the entire galaxy? It might even be easier to cause a star to go nova than Death Star style destroy a planet. The Mechanovore that could hurl continents is a pretty dumb idea though.

One thing to consider with the Pre-Fall Empire is that they could have stopped developing technologically a long time ago and DAoT humanity did catch up. The thing is that Eldar still were massively psychic and didn't have the restraints they do with Slaanesh around. Humans were obviously infants in that area though. Thus humans could conceivably rival the Eldar technologically, the Eldar weren't concerned as they could see the future, use mind control, and had access to the Web Way. It would be like the Old Ones vs the Necrontyr if it came to a fight.

If I had to write DAoT Eldar, I'd probably go with them beginning to stagnate when they developed the predecessors to spirit stones and infinity circuits. These would be used for catching Eldar souls so they could enter a new body in the event that their current body was killed by accident. This would be my justification for why murder parties would become hip right before Slaanesh, because Eldar couldn't reallly die. These devices would be heavily modified to protect against Slaanesh which is one reason why wraith constructs are the best you can get for returning Eldar from the dead (also not wanting to repeat the immortality mistake again).

Now for Orks to be a threat to DAoT Eldar and Humans, it seems like you would at least need several Prime Orks. More than in the War of the Beast. If they can prevent Warbosses from getting enough territory or unifying then they could keep Prime Orks from growing. The Imperium hasn't seen Prime Orks in a while, after all.

The Necrons might not have been more powerful than pre-Fall Eldar at their height. Just as they grew to overthrow the Old Ones, it's possible that the Eldar might have eventually out grew the Necrons. Even the DAoT humans or the MoI might have been a challenge. The Necron super weapons of the past seem to be a similar scale of threat as the DAoT ones.

Finally, with the BSF MoI, the AI might be software based but it would still need the hardware to effectively run it. It's possible that it might be downloaded into an Imperial Robot, but would that mean it had to alter it's programming and sacrifice data to fit into hardware that was inferior? Alternately it could be a basic soldier model that only had the data to repair and maintain it self but was deemed necessary or even had the capacity to store data necessary for it to upgrade itself or make other units like it. For instance it might be able to create a duplicate frame but it doesn't have the knowledge to program another digital consciousness or even how to copy its own..

Voss wrote:

Afterthoughts: I've always wondered if the Emperor of 30k ever remembered his father and mother, or thought about them

It's questionable if he even had parents. My impression was the Shamans just collectively reincarnated on the spot, so you've got a baby/young man lying in a ring of corpses.

I'm more puzzled by the DAoT being powerful somehow threatens the Fall narrative. I'm unclear why either species would care.

The Emperor shares memories of his father in Master of Mankind, he's a child at the time and the description of the time suggests it's the first human civilisation.

Lore wise I thought it was well covered that the eldar reached a point where they were not threatened by anyone, and were basically bored because tech and science had negated everything hence why the search for more extreme experiences by some led to Slaanesh. DAOT and MoI has to be a powerful time to reflect the fact that despite everything, humanity never gets to that height again. AI cannot be used because of what it led to. The men of iron are dangerous in the way zombies are in a World War Z (book, not the film). No supply chain. No morale. No rest. No training time. There is a scene in the book where a massive zombie horde is funnelled into a killzone and it goes wrong because the shock and awe aspect is lost on the zombies, they don't surrender but keep coming. Any human losses take time to replace.

Stuff like the Mechanivore comes from the human need to do something if you can. Think of our military tech right now. The US and Russia both have multiple ways they could effectively end the planet for all useful purposes. Why have nukes when you have bio weapons ? Which bio weapon ? Because we can and the military have dream that these different scenarios.

If the Blackstone fortress dude is anything to go by the Moi would have a huge logistics chain to deliver all the assault cannon ammo

 Flinty wrote:
If the Blackstone fortress dude is anything to go by the Moi would have a huge logistics chain to deliver all the assault cannon ammo

Unless it's self repair ability allows it to break down matter and reassemble it to replace missing components, including ammo.

Self-replicating ammo hoppers are already a thing within the Mechanicus, albeit as a highly treasured relic.

That tech?

It came from somewhere. If it’s not something the Men Of Iron could’ve had reasonable access to, who else would? After all, their creation marked the absolute zenith of man’s technological prowess. All went downhill from there.

Fair point. But would it not be more efficient to use one of the many different type of energy weapons available rather than self assembly of solid ammo?

pm713 wrote:
He's really not. That story doesn't really justify the idea DAOT humans = Eldar Empire. It's like saying I can take out a cargo ship with some machine guns therefore I can destroy the most advanced military ship in the world. Some serious citation needed here.

The novel in question is "Forges of Mars" by Graham McNeill. An eldar strike cruiser is not a "cargo ship". IIRC the Speranza deploys some black hole cannon type thing and takes out the eldar cruiser with a single shot. The cruiser was a craftworld battle ship that was probably of the same make and model that would be in common use during the height of the eldar empire (eldar technology hasn't advanced since the fall, but didn't regress like humanity's technology did).

I was not trying to say that DAoT humans = Eldar Empire. I said that DAoT humans had certain technology that was on par with, or close behind eldar stuff. This may not have been the case in older lore, but it is increasingly so in newer lore, and as we all know, new > old when it comes to cannonicity.

As to why the eldar never considered humanity a threat to be eliminated? Because the eldar were isolationist, and stuck to their own corner of the galaxy. The humans for their part had no desire to war with the eldar because DAoT humans were more sympathetic to aliens, going so far as to form a federation somewhat analogous to the Federation depicted in star trek. I think people here are applying 40k mindsets to a time when the galaxy was a very different place.

Also, just because you have technology on par with someone doesn't mean you are necessarily a threat. We can see this with when looking at the Tau empire vs the IOM. The Tau have much better technology than the Imperium in certain regards, but are not even a real threat when looked at from a galaxy-wide perspective. I would posit that a sufficiently roused eldar empire at its height could have easily defeated the DAoT humans, regardless of technology parity, simply because the eldar were far older and far more canny when it came to warfare, plus they probably had "gifts" left over from the old ones, and the webway would have been a HUGE advantage. The eldar frankly didn't consider humanity to be worth the trouble. Humanity's collapse in M23 proved them right.

 Flinty wrote:
Fair point. But would it not be more efficient to use one of the many different type of energy weapons available rather than self assembly of solid ammo?

It depends - basically if such ammo-hoppers use nano-assemblers to recombine existing matter then energy expedinture can be less than needed for energy weapon, actually maybe less than quantities needed to MELT metals and other materials in shells.
Not to mention that projectile can be pretty different from dumb 'slug' - definitely there's self-guiding bolts in BL books, and - iirc - there's some pretty interesting charges too other than imperial 'blood and ashes of martyrs'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
The cruiser was a craftworld battle ship that was probably of the same make and model that would be in common use during the height of the eldar empire (eldar technology hasn't advance since the fall, but didn't regress like humanity's technology did).

Actually eldar tech was heavily modified since empire - transition to soulstones and SWT-caused limits to use of psi-powers must have yet undescribed effects on it. IMO closest RW analogy is use of coal gas instead of gasoline in trucks during WWII or current push for methane cars and buses.
Not to mention that having same hull and basic design says nothing about shipboard system's capabilities - it's one of problems for Imperial new builds and Eldars may have it too.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
He's really not. That story doesn't really justify the idea DAOT humans = Eldar Empire. It's like saying I can take out a cargo ship with some machine guns therefore I can destroy the most advanced military ship in the world. Some serious citation needed here.

The novel in question is "Forges of Mars" by Graham McNeill. An eldar strike cruiser is not a "cargo ship". IIRC the Speranza deploys some black hole cannon type thing and takes out the eldar cruiser with a single shot. The cruiser was a craftworld battle ship that was probably of the same make and model that would be in common use during the height of the eldar empire (eldar technology hasn't advanced since the fall, but didn't regress like humanity's technology did).

I was not trying to say that DAoT humans = Eldar Empire. I said that DAoT humans had certain technology that was on par with, or close behind eldar stuff. This may not have been the case in older lore, but it is increasingly so in newer lore, and as we all know, new > old when it comes to cannonicity.

As to why the eldar never considered humanity a threat to be eliminated? Because the eldar were isolationist, and stuck to their own corner of the galaxy. The humans for their part had no desire to war with the eldar because DAoT humans were more sympathetic to aliens, going so far as to form a federation somewhat analogous to the Federation depicted in star trek. I think people here are applying 40k mindsets to a time when the galaxy was a very different place.

Also, just because you have technology on par with someone doesn't mean you are necessarily a threat. We can see this with when looking at the Tau empire vs the IOM. The Tau have much better technology than the Imperium in certain regards, but are not even a real threat when looked at from a galaxy-wide perspective. I would posit that a sufficiently roused eldar empire at its height could have easily defeated the DAoT humans, regardless of technology parity, simply because the eldar were far older and far more canny when it came to warfare, plus they probably had "gifts" left over from the old ones, and the webway would have been a HUGE advantage. The eldar frankly didn't consider humanity to be worth the trouble. Humanity's collapse in M23 proved them right.

It may as well be. Craftworlds have the strength to take out Imperial fleets and they're literally geared up cargo ships in some cases. You can't use modern Eldar as a measure of their top strength, they're like the small settlements who trade with each other in the Walking Dead,

Eldar were all over the galaxy so the "sticking to a corner" thing doesn't make much sense. They could literally give away planets to the crazy people.

Eldar Empire and DAoT Republic/Federation/Empire were most certainly almost equal in strength when it comes to hostilities. From a deductive reasoning standpoint. Non-action is an action unto itself, and if you're unwilling to either square up, or meet aggression with aggression, whether that is if you don't care, or if you don't want to, then the advantage goes to the aggressor.

And even without that in mind, a fight between two immensely large and power groups is not a simple they'll easily win this, or they'll easily win that. If for whatever reason the Eldar Empire pre-30K WANTED or HAD to engage the humans in all out war, it would be a resource intensive and a long drawn out affair, where both sides would pull assets, resources, and cards from their decks with many variables that MIGHT give them an upper hand. And there is nothing in the lore to say they didn't quarrel with each other either. It might have been big disputes, it might have been small quarrels between VIPs. All we know is, DAoT man has had many fights with xenos of all kinds.

The nature of man is that we are innately drawn to conflicts, for god knows how many reasons. Food, shelter, resources, slights, stunted of character/morals, simple greed. I would say it would have been almost impossible to not have gotten into several scraps with the Eldar. But we know that neither side has aggressively sought the destruction of the other before the warpstorms. So why not?

chyron wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Fair point. But would it not be more efficient to use one of the many different type of energy weapons available rather than self assembly of solid ammo?

It depends - basically if such ammo-hoppers use nano-assemblers to recombine existing matter then energy expedinture can be less than needed for energy weapon, actually maybe less than quantities needed to MELT metals and other materials in shells.
Not to mention that projectile can be pretty different from dumb 'slug' - definitely there's self-guiding bolts in BL books, and - iirc - there's some pretty interesting charges too other than imperial 'blood and ashes of martyrs'.

But where do the nano assemblers get their energy from? And energy is still needed to break the bonds holding the matter together to be able to reshape it into some other matter. I think for your bog standard front line boys you'd be better giving them super efficient energy reclamation and storage capacity rather than super complicated nano assemblers. But to be fair I'm not from the 25th millennium So what do I know

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
He's really not. That story doesn't really justify the idea DAOT humans = Eldar Empire. It's like saying I can take out a cargo ship with some machine guns therefore I can destroy the most advanced military ship in the world. Some serious citation needed here.

The novel in question is "Forges of Mars" by Graham McNeill. An eldar strike cruiser is not a "cargo ship". IIRC the Speranza deploys some black hole cannon type thing and takes out the eldar cruiser with a single shot. The cruiser was a craftworld battle ship that was probably of the same make and model that would be in common use during the height of the eldar empire (eldar technology hasn't advanced since the fall, but didn't regress like humanity's technology did).

I was not trying to say that DAoT humans = Eldar Empire. I said that DAoT humans had certain technology that was on par with, or close behind eldar stuff. This may not have been the case in older lore, but it is increasingly so in newer lore, and as we all know, new > old when it comes to cannonicity.

As to why the eldar never considered humanity a threat to be eliminated? Because the eldar were isolationist, and stuck to their own corner of the galaxy. The humans for their part had no desire to war with the eldar because DAoT humans were more sympathetic to aliens, going so far as to form a federation somewhat analogous to the Federation depicted in star trek. I think people here are applying 40k mindsets to a time when the galaxy was a very different place.

Also, just because you have technology on par with someone doesn't mean you are necessarily a threat. We can see this with when looking at the Tau empire vs the IOM. The Tau have much better technology than the Imperium in certain regards, but are not even a real threat when looked at from a galaxy-wide perspective. I would posit that a sufficiently roused eldar empire at its height could have easily defeated the DAoT humans, regardless of technology parity, simply because the eldar were far older and far more canny when it came to warfare, plus they probably had "gifts" left over from the old ones, and the webway would have been a HUGE advantage. The eldar frankly didn't consider humanity to be worth the trouble. Humanity's collapse in M23 proved them right.

It may as well be. Craftworlds have the strength to take out Imperial fleets and they're literally geared up cargo ships in some cases. You can't use modern Eldar as a measure of their top strength, they're like the small settlements who trade with each other in the Walking Dead,

Eldar were all over the galaxy so the "sticking to a corner" thing doesn't make much sense. They could literally give away planets to the crazy people.

Again it comes down to again the core concept of the Fall being internal rot rather than any outside threat. The pre-Fall Eldar Empire had to be so secure from outside threats that it decayed from within. It is a core theme to the Fall and the Eldar, just as pride and hubris was the core theme behind the fall of Numenor in Lord of the Rings and the concept of Atlantis. Numenor, a human nation, was so powerful they overpowered Sauron, who had to resort to guile rather than force. Just like Numenor, Atlantis, etc..., the pre-Fall Eldar seemingly had it all, and it seemed that things would continue that way forever as no other credible threats existed.

If the DAoT humans were an actual threat to the Eldar, then that completely overturns that core concept. It is a problem of power creep on the part of writers who resort to some DAoT gimmick/McGuffin to solve their plot problems, and/or some inability to have humans be inferior to an alien race.

The pre-Fall Eldar can be envisaged to be like the Vorlons from Babylon 5. They may have been introspective and kept to their worlds, but any trespass was met with devastating force. Just because the Eldar didn't genocide the entire galaxy does not suddenly make them any less dominant as a power during that era. Just because a human doesn't wipe out species of weed or ants doesn't make them any less dominant in their own backyard. In a similar vein, the pre-Fall Eldar likely crushed any Ork or human trespass, and after enough time, humans learned to stay clear, knowing that the Eldar didn't really care about the other worlds in the galaxy so long as what they had marked theirs was inviolate. If the other races of the galaxy had to tiptoe around the Eldar and steer clear of their interests, then that certainly counts as being a dominant power.

Note for all those claiming the Eldar were in one corner of the galaxy, that is simply not true. Look at the galaxy map with Eldar sites put in, and they are scattered all over the galaxy. The Webway meant the Eldar empire did not have to be any contiguous swathe of space.

I think the references to being in one corner are the fact that the Fall destroyed the crone worlds which were the core of the empire. The eye of terror is in one relatively small area and the only reference to any other surviving Eldar are on scattered expedite worlds and craftworlds. If there were major Eldar worlds all over the place, then where are they?