Space Marine Librarius Psychic Powers - Seem poor to you?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Martel732**

All those auras are on generally overcosted characters, though. And the units they apply to are awful.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Might of heroes is the only good power. +1 attack for Gman is nice - though the str and toughness are mostly wasted.

What the marines need is a defensive buff from their psykers. Like a 5++ aura or +1 armor or -1 to hit. You know...powers that don't suck. You know. Powers that trash IG psykers get.

The str and toughness don't suck actually, strength 9 with the Emperors Sword means he is gonna to wound the IK on 3s while keeping the potential MW induced. While T7 makes him better against lots of Str 6/7 attacks, like assault cannon / autocannon, power maul, most of the Tyranids Scything Talon and MRC, etc.

I once use Tigirius casting this power on a Repulsor, as well as poping auto launcher and master of prescience on it. Saved it from the firepower from the OP Eldar army!!!

The Emperors Sword? If you're talking about the Burning Blade, why would you go after an Imperial Knight with that? It does 1D total.

**Spoletta**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Might of heroes is the only good power. +1 attack for Gman is nice - though the str and toughness are mostly wasted.

What the marines need is a defensive buff from their psykers. Like a 5++ aura or +1 armor or -1 to hit. You know...powers that don't suck. You know. Powers that trash IG psykers get.

The str and toughness don't suck actually, strength 9 with the Emperors Sword means he is gonna to wound the IK on 3s while keeping the potential MW induced. While T7 makes him better against lots of Str 6/7 attacks, like assault cannon / autocannon, power maul, most of the Tyranids Scything Talon and MRC, etc.

I once use Tigirius casting this power on a Repulsor, as well as poping auto launcher and master of prescience on it. Saved it from the firepower from the OP Eldar army!!!

The Emperors Sword? If you're talking about the Burning Blade, why would you go after an Imperial Knight with that? It does 1D total.

He is talking about the Emperor Sword, bigsmurf's sword. AP-4 D3 and additional MW. Hurts.

**Marmatag**

Might of heroes is good.
Null zone is good.

But nothing is amazing like chaos. Chaos is bonkers. They are the bar by which any power set will be evaluated.

**Stux**

Another issue is that loyal marines generally don't get absolute beasts that can use powers.

Chaos have DPs and Primarchs, Nids have Hive Tyrants. Pretty durable combat monsters.

A power like Might of Heroes is much better if it's being cast by the target, it's just much easier to set up.

Marines don't really have that. Mephiston or Librarian Dreads are probably the closest I guess..? Both Blood Angels though.

**Bharring**

The Farseer has Doom, but beyond that, aren't Runes of Fate powers about the same level of 'meh'?

Now, Runes of Battle powers are amazing. But Farseers can't take them.

**Stux**

Bharring wrote:
The Farseer has Doom, but beyond that, aren't Runes of Fate powers about the same level of 'meh'?

Now, Runes of Battle powers are amazing. But Farseers can't take them.

Maybe, but Doom is borderline broken. You can't say that about any Librarius powers.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
The Farseer has Doom, but beyond that, aren't Runes of Fate powers about the same level of 'meh'?

Now, Runes of Battle powers are amazing. But Farseers can't take them.

Doom Guide and fortune are T1 powers and executioner isn't bad.

**Bharring**

"Reroll shooting on one unit" isn't terrible, but some factions - SM included - get *auras* that do *better*.

5+ FnP is a fairly common power.

I wouldn't rate either of those as T1. Not like Quicken/WarpTime/DeathHex/Doom.

**Bremon**

Unless you look at how it interacts with the rest of the list; no SM unit is going to benefit from reroll 1 the way Reapers benefit from Guide.

That’s without mentioning that Doom is one of the best in the game.

**Stux**

Not sure why this thread was moved... What it a mistake?

We've been talking about the relative strengths of existing rules, not proposing them.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
"Reroll shooting on one unit" isn't terrible, but some factions - SM included - get *auras* that do *better*.

5+ FnP is a fairly common power.

I wouldn't rate either of those as T1. Not like Quicken/WarpTime/DeathHex/Doom.

Uhh - lets be honest here - if space marine reroll all hit auras were in other armies. They would be in EVERY competitive list. I'd still take guide over any power in librarius. It would give me some actual tactical flexibility.

**WisdomLS**

I don't understand why the thread has moved either, how do we move it back?

Regarding the marine character buffs, the main issue is that marine units in general are very poor in terms of offensive output per point so the aura buff whilst good still don't up their killyness to good levels.

It would appear that because of these buffs they decided to not really give librarius any significant buffing powers and go another, less powerful route.

As someone said marine auras in other codexs would be amazing but that is because most other codexs have considerably more efficient offensive unit options.

I'm glad that other seem to agree with my feeling on the space marine powers, i'll still take libbys (I like my models) but won't be expecting them to have a significant impact.
I'm not really sure what if anything GW could do to address these issues, they wont replace the powers with better ones, they may reduce the costs or increase the ranges but that will only really help Null Zone which is already one of the best two powers, its the others that need help.

Best hope is gaining access to a new discipline that they may print in a future campaign book.

**Stux**

WisdomLS wrote:
I don't understand why the thread has moved either, how do we move it back?

Regarding the marine character buffs, the main issue is that marine units in general are very poor in terms of offensive output per point so the aura buff whilst good still don't up their killyness to good levels.

It would appear that because of these buffs they decided to not really give librarius any significant buffing powers and go another, less powerful route.

As someone said marine auras in other codexs would be amazing but that is because most other codexs have considerably more efficient offensive unit options.

I'm glad that other seem to agree with my feeling on the space marine powers, i'll still take libbys (I like my models) but won't be expecting them to have a significant impact.
I'm not really sure what if anything GW could do to address these issues, they wont replace the powers with better ones, they may reduce the costs or increase the ranges but that will only really help Null Zone which is already one of the best two powers, its the others that need help.

Best hope is gaining access to a new discipline that they may print in a future campaign book.

That's all pretty fair!

Librarians aren't terrible, they're just a bit outclassed.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Null Zone could be just a 6 or 7 to cast and I still wouldn't use it.

**mew28**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Null Zone could be just a 6 or 7 to cast and I still wouldn't use it.

Why? It is one the best powers marines have and if you are in a caster heavy meta having at least one lib to deny is a must in a mono marine list.

**Stux**

mew28 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Null Zone could be just a 6 or 7 to cast and I still wouldn't use it.

Why? It is one the best powers marines have and if you are in a caster heavy meta having at least one lib to deny is a must in a mono marine list.

Because of the range. Against an opponent that screens competently it's virtually useless.

If we had proper psychic melee beatsticks it would be useable for dueling, but we don't.

**Martel732**

It could be WC 5 and still be pretty hard to use.

**Slayer-Fan123**

mew28 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Null Zone could be just a 6 or 7 to cast and I still wouldn't use it.

Why? It is one the best powers marines have and if you are in a caster heavy meta having at least one lib to deny is a must in a mono marine list.

It has a range of 6", which is incredibly prohibitive. You'd have to build your list around propelling a 100+ point character getting into the middle of everything and just hoping for the best. It isn't worth the trouble at all.

**Martel732**

mew28 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Null Zone could be just a 6 or 7 to cast and I still wouldn't use it.

Why? It is one the best powers marines have and if you are in a caster heavy meta having at least one lib to deny is a must in a mono marine list.

I don't pay 100ish for a single deny that likely won't work. Why are libs a must again?

**Daedalus81**

WisdomLS wrote:

Fury of the Ancients - WC7; Draw a 3D6" line, each enemy unit touched take a MW - I've never taken this, the line seems too random and short to ever really cover many units and a single MW to each doesn't impress me much.

This one would be immediately fixed if it was models and not units.

**Stux**

Daedalus81 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:

Fury of the Ancients - WC7; Draw a 3D6" line, each enemy unit touched take a MW - I've never taken this, the line seems too random and short to ever really cover many units and a single MW to each doesn't impress me much.

This one would be immediately fixed if it was models and not units.

It's just a really poor power.

Non-trivial WC
Random range
Average range is fairly short anyway
Number of wounds reliant on multiple units being correctly aligned within the short, random range

The situations I would choose to cast this over Smite are vanishingly niche.

**Bharring**

Powers in this edition are very hit-and-miss. And Libby powers were mostly miss.

**Nightlord1987**

I was surprised to see that Loyalists didn't have a Prescience power for their Librarians. I would have gotten a Primaris Libby (for killteam, but also to port into 40k) but their powers are so bland.

**Stux**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
I was surprised to see that Loyalists didn't have a Prescience power for their Librarians. I would have gotten a Primaris Libby (for killteam, but also to port into 40k) but their powers are so bland.

Oh my, Prescience would be amazing. So much more useful than anything on the list!

**NurglesR0T**

Stux wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:

Fury of the Ancients - WC7; Draw a 3D6" line, each enemy unit touched take a MW - I've never taken this, the line seems too random and short to ever really cover many units and a single MW to each doesn't impress me much.

This one would be immediately fixed if it was models and not units.

It's just a really poor power.

Non-trivial WC
Random range
Average range is fairly short anyway
Number of wounds reliant on multiple units being correctly aligned within the short, random range

The situations I would choose to cast this over Smite are vanishingly niche.

This is more of a problem with the Smite mechanic in general. Why cast this, when you can cast a power that is easier and has a guaranteed max range of 3D6 with more reliable MW.

Perhaps if they changed the mechanic to reflect AOS where you could only cast Smite once (Arcane Bolt) by any caster you'd see more play time with the "lesser" MW dealers from each tree. Would also be an inherit buff for GK/TS as they could cast their versions of smite regardless of the above restriction.

**WisdomLS**

Yes very few of the Smite like powers are as good as smite which is a problem with the basic spell - I wouldn't be shocked to see it change a little, perhaps add an additional scale: WC-5 = 1MW, WC-9/10 = D3, WC-11/12 = D6

Its the other powers that I find to be the problem, one gives a 4+ against MW whilst there are multiple powers that give a 5+ VS all wounds.

Re-roll charges and strike first just isn't useful in a marine list unless you strike before chargers.

As has been said if you could take Null zone on a character that was tough enough to want to close with the enemy then maybe, a termy libby is a possibility I suppose.

**A.T.**

Daedalus81 wrote:
This one would be immediately fixed if it was models and not units.

It would be hugely powerful against infantry units - particularly when thrown into ongoing combats or other tightly packed units.

**Crimson**

Smite has always been too good. It was idiotic to design the basic backup spell everyone gets to be so powerful. There has been myriad fixes to that basic problem, which have rendered some psykers unplayable, without fixing the actual core of problem which is the smite itself.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

WisdomLS wrote:
I play against and with various other psychic armies, in comparison:

Eldar: Obviously better and they should be but they are not even in the same ball park.

Space Wolves: Better Buff, better defence and better smite like powers.

Blood Angel: These aren't necessarily better but certainly have better synergy with the way the army works.

Dark Angels: Not all great but a couple of real standouts.

Tyranids/Genecult: I'm not an expert but they seem to have some really powerful powers.

Astra militarum: The +1 save and -1 to be hit powers are super good, these guys really shouldn't be better than a libby.

Chaos of various flavours: To many powers to really analyse here but the basic ones are certainly better with deathhex being a much better null zone (the range is key) and warptime being bonkers.

Ork: Haven't played against them yet but weird boys seem to be in most of the lists which is a good indicator.

Grey Knights: A bit lackluster for such a psychic army.

Do you disagree with these assessments? let me know what you think, I play some of these but have only played against most, perhaps using them gives you a different perspective on their power. If you play against marines which of their powers makes your buttocks clench in fear?

I think that there isn't really a reason Primaris Psykers should be particularly worse than Librarians. They're not guardsmen, they're the folks the black ships nabbed and trained.

Anyway, with regards to the SM power:
Null Zone is really good.
Psychic fortress us completely useless.
Veil of Time is useful, ish, but only late game. Not a star.
Might of Heroes is generic, but probably second best.
Psychic Scourge is generic.

Basically, the librarian takes Null Zone and Might of Heroes, and casts Null Zone and Smite.

All in all, I don't think it's the worst power tree.